Actual Defensive Shooting
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
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cxm
Member
Intruders
Bob,
Some advice is trans-jurisdictional and always good... some not.
When there is an intruder in your home you have two problems to solve... survival and legal. The first problem is by far the most serious and the second doesn't matter if you don't solve the first problem.
Any type of warning, lights, verbal warnings or screams of terror serve only to pass the tactical advantage to the ED(s). While lights might blind an intruder, it does not deal with the possibility of other EDs not in the direct light. I tend to think 12 ga. is the best way to announce you are defending your home.
Ultimately, you need to know what your state's laws say (here in Texas an ED in your home is not a legal problem in most circumstances) and combine the law with your home defense plan (everyone has a home defense plan...right?)
I don't give legal advice... simply comment on issues ( if you want legal advice it costs money)and observations of the usages in my jurisdiction.
Ultimately, you must first survive the encounter (and keep those for whom you are responsible alive/well.) The doc in the story almost failed part two of that requirement.
This isn't rocket science...but it has to be right the first time every time... and if one doesn't get it right, you can get very dead... and worse family can get hurt/dead... as our doc demonstrated.
FWIW
Chuck
cxm: I think the only reference to warning shot was in my post which was a facetious statement. Beyond that, no legal advice is written in stone; simply too many variables, JMMHO.
I really like the idea of Bright, remote-controlled lights in strategic locations, like high up in the end of the hall, blinding the perp coming toward your bedroom. Course, I also like 100# intruder alarms, with 4 legs!
Stay safe.
Bob
Bob,
Some advice is trans-jurisdictional and always good... some not.
When there is an intruder in your home you have two problems to solve... survival and legal. The first problem is by far the most serious and the second doesn't matter if you don't solve the first problem.
Any type of warning, lights, verbal warnings or screams of terror serve only to pass the tactical advantage to the ED(s). While lights might blind an intruder, it does not deal with the possibility of other EDs not in the direct light. I tend to think 12 ga. is the best way to announce you are defending your home.
Ultimately, you need to know what your state's laws say (here in Texas an ED in your home is not a legal problem in most circumstances) and combine the law with your home defense plan (everyone has a home defense plan...right?)
I don't give legal advice... simply comment on issues ( if you want legal advice it costs money)and observations of the usages in my jurisdiction.
Ultimately, you must first survive the encounter (and keep those for whom you are responsible alive/well.) The doc in the story almost failed part two of that requirement.
This isn't rocket science...but it has to be right the first time every time... and if one doesn't get it right, you can get very dead... and worse family can get hurt/dead... as our doc demonstrated.
FWIW
Chuck
cxm: I think the only reference to warning shot was in my post which was a facetious statement. Beyond that, no legal advice is written in stone; simply too many variables, JMMHO.
I really like the idea of Bright, remote-controlled lights in strategic locations, like high up in the end of the hall, blinding the perp coming toward your bedroom. Course, I also like 100# intruder alarms, with 4 legs!
Stay safe.
Bob
Bob F.
Member
cxm: agreed that there's nothing wrong with advice (usually).
My only point is that a lot depends on other things besides the law. Just as an oversimplistic example: Got stopped in a road check. Trooper saw my EMS gear in the back; "who's stuff?" "Mine." "OK; go ahead, watch you don't run over my partner." No lic, reg, ins; no nothing. Another: before they changed the law to allow CCW in the woods, VFD was on a SAR which eventually became a recovery (I digress per usual); Sheriff pulled in, looked around, pistol butts everywhere but never mentioned.
Stay safe.
Bob
My only point is that a lot depends on other things besides the law. Just as an oversimplistic example: Got stopped in a road check. Trooper saw my EMS gear in the back; "who's stuff?" "Mine." "OK; go ahead, watch you don't run over my partner." No lic, reg, ins; no nothing. Another: before they changed the law to allow CCW in the woods, VFD was on a SAR which eventually became a recovery (I digress per usual); Sheriff pulled in, looked around, pistol butts everywhere but never mentioned.
Stay safe.
Bob
If you're gonna shoot, shoot; don't talk." -Paco in the Good The Bad and The Ugly.
This is sound tactical advice. Given the circumstances the homeowner was well justified in shooting and continuing to do so until the threat was nullified (i.e splayed out on the floor semi conscious with gun out of reach). Once the BG had turned and was running there is less argument for the HO to chase after him shooting. Those who bring up the issue of others getting hurt are maybe forgetting that it was an isolated lake house so no one else should have been around. If the doc did not have a weapon he and wife could easily have had their pics on 9 O'clock news shown taped and tied to a chair dead. 911 was not going to help this immediate situation. From the sound of it the doc did an OK job under tremendous stress. Sure we can Mon AM quarterback and tell how we would have done differently but I wouldnt use that to judge his response.
This is sound tactical advice. Given the circumstances the homeowner was well justified in shooting and continuing to do so until the threat was nullified (i.e splayed out on the floor semi conscious with gun out of reach). Once the BG had turned and was running there is less argument for the HO to chase after him shooting. Those who bring up the issue of others getting hurt are maybe forgetting that it was an isolated lake house so no one else should have been around. If the doc did not have a weapon he and wife could easily have had their pics on 9 O'clock news shown taped and tied to a chair dead. 911 was not going to help this immediate situation. From the sound of it the doc did an OK job under tremendous stress. Sure we can Mon AM quarterback and tell how we would have done differently but I wouldnt use that to judge his response.
bill2
Member
legal advice?
since there has been lots of legal advice in this thread, and several of you have mentioned getting advice pertinent to where you live, how do you get intelligent and current advice on this matter? I know some lawyers, but I doubt if they would know all the legal ins and outs on this subject. If I wanted to pay for an hour of some lawyer's time, how do I go about finding that lawyer? I live in the bay area in Nor Cal. Any suggestions?
thanks
since there has been lots of legal advice in this thread, and several of you have mentioned getting advice pertinent to where you live, how do you get intelligent and current advice on this matter? I know some lawyers, but I doubt if they would know all the legal ins and outs on this subject. If I wanted to pay for an hour of some lawyer's time, how do I go about finding that lawyer? I live in the bay area in Nor Cal. Any suggestions?
thanks
Vern Humphrey
Member
In most states that have CCW laws, local gun clubs conduct training required to get a permit, and usually have a lawyer as a member who is willing to do some legal instruction during the course.
Keeping in mind that any advice gotten from the internet is worth exactly what you paid for it, here's my take on the situation.
Scenario 1. As several people have suggested, you shoot the intruder where he is, without warning. You are probably legally justified in doing so, and it would be ruled a clean shoot.
But while it's being investigated, you will probably still be arrested. Then suppose the DA is an Anti, and decieds to press murder charges. Bail is set at $100,000. Unless you happen to have that much just laying around, you will have to pay the Bail Bondsman 10% of that (that's $10,000 for you non math inclined folks) to get out of jail. That's not a loan, that's money you never get back. Lawyer fees end up running you another $10,000 minimum, probably more like $50,000. But it's eventually ruled a clean shoot, and you are found not guilty. You are a free man, albeit $60,000 poorer. And suffering from nightmares, sleep disorders, guilt, remorse, depression, sexual dysfunction, and social ostracism in the wake of having had to kill a man.
Or perhaps you or the cops screwed up some of the evidence at the scene, or you accidentally said something stupid at the scene that got mis-interpreted, or maybe your lawyer just sucks, or through dumb luck, all 12 members of the jury are HCI members. You get found guilty. You are now a felon, your RKBA is gone, and you willbe spending the next 10 or 20 years sharing a room with Bubba.
Or maybe you shoot the one intruder, but then the second one you didn't see steps out of the shadows and kills you. And your wife, just to make sure there are no witnesses.
Scenario 2. Since the intruder hasn't seen you yet, you retreat back into the bedroom, closing the door if possible. You take cover with a view of the door, the wife takes different cover out of the line of fire, still on the phone with 911. You can now shout out "The police are on the way. I am armed. If you enter the bedroom, I will shoot to defend myself."
If the intruder is smart, he'll get his butt out of there post haste. Worst case scenario, he does try to enter the bedroom and then you shoot him. You are no worse off at that point than you were in scenario 1, and in fact now you have your verbal warning recorded on the 911 call, which makes your legal case that much easier. But most likely, the situation will end with the intruder fleeing, and no shots fired. That's really the goal of any gunfight - not to have it happen in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-self defense, and if I need to, I will shoot to defend myself. But with everything at stake, I'm not going to be too cavalier about shooting people. Judged by 12 is better than carried by six, but not having to fire any shots is even better yet.
Besides, the sandwich he made off with couldn't have cost more than $60,000.
Scenario 1. As several people have suggested, you shoot the intruder where he is, without warning. You are probably legally justified in doing so, and it would be ruled a clean shoot.
But while it's being investigated, you will probably still be arrested. Then suppose the DA is an Anti, and decieds to press murder charges. Bail is set at $100,000. Unless you happen to have that much just laying around, you will have to pay the Bail Bondsman 10% of that (that's $10,000 for you non math inclined folks) to get out of jail. That's not a loan, that's money you never get back. Lawyer fees end up running you another $10,000 minimum, probably more like $50,000. But it's eventually ruled a clean shoot, and you are found not guilty. You are a free man, albeit $60,000 poorer. And suffering from nightmares, sleep disorders, guilt, remorse, depression, sexual dysfunction, and social ostracism in the wake of having had to kill a man.
Or perhaps you or the cops screwed up some of the evidence at the scene, or you accidentally said something stupid at the scene that got mis-interpreted, or maybe your lawyer just sucks, or through dumb luck, all 12 members of the jury are HCI members. You get found guilty. You are now a felon, your RKBA is gone, and you willbe spending the next 10 or 20 years sharing a room with Bubba.
Or maybe you shoot the one intruder, but then the second one you didn't see steps out of the shadows and kills you. And your wife, just to make sure there are no witnesses.
Scenario 2. Since the intruder hasn't seen you yet, you retreat back into the bedroom, closing the door if possible. You take cover with a view of the door, the wife takes different cover out of the line of fire, still on the phone with 911. You can now shout out "The police are on the way. I am armed. If you enter the bedroom, I will shoot to defend myself."
If the intruder is smart, he'll get his butt out of there post haste. Worst case scenario, he does try to enter the bedroom and then you shoot him. You are no worse off at that point than you were in scenario 1, and in fact now you have your verbal warning recorded on the 911 call, which makes your legal case that much easier. But most likely, the situation will end with the intruder fleeing, and no shots fired. That's really the goal of any gunfight - not to have it happen in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-self defense, and if I need to, I will shoot to defend myself. But with everything at stake, I'm not going to be too cavalier about shooting people. Judged by 12 is better than carried by six, but not having to fire any shots is even better yet.
Besides, the sandwich he made off with couldn't have cost more than $60,000.
Scenario 1:
You shoot the guy as mentioned. The police come. The officer is a racist/bigot/psychopath and plants evidence on you. The DA is the officer's brother in law and covers up for him. THere is a massive conspiracy to get your butt. Your lawyer shows up drunk to court and sleeps through most of the proceedings. You are convicted within minutes ("Your honor, we find the defendant incredibly guilty"). At sentencing your ex-wife shows up with the raggamuffin kids in tow demanding the judge throw the book at you. The judge sentences you to 100 years with no parole. You end up in a cell block with "Ceddy" and his pals and in no time your rectum looks like the Holland Tunnel. Your wife takes up with your lawyer while you are in jail. They drive your car to the range and shoot all your guns, not cleaning them afterwards. The ones they dont want they sell to the local gun shop for a fraction of their value. You contract AIDS and die in horrible misery.
Scenario 2:
You live in a decent place where the rights of homeowners to protect themselves is recognized. The police take one quick look at the face down perp with the gun in his hand and his bag with the rope and duct tape and thank you for your time. On investigation the perp is wanted on several other B&Es and is suspect in a murder case or 20. The sergeant calls and thanks you for saving the state a lot of money and asks if you can go shooting together some time soon.
You shoot the guy as mentioned. The police come. The officer is a racist/bigot/psychopath and plants evidence on you. The DA is the officer's brother in law and covers up for him. THere is a massive conspiracy to get your butt. Your lawyer shows up drunk to court and sleeps through most of the proceedings. You are convicted within minutes ("Your honor, we find the defendant incredibly guilty"). At sentencing your ex-wife shows up with the raggamuffin kids in tow demanding the judge throw the book at you. The judge sentences you to 100 years with no parole. You end up in a cell block with "Ceddy" and his pals and in no time your rectum looks like the Holland Tunnel. Your wife takes up with your lawyer while you are in jail. They drive your car to the range and shoot all your guns, not cleaning them afterwards. The ones they dont want they sell to the local gun shop for a fraction of their value. You contract AIDS and die in horrible misery.
Scenario 2:
You live in a decent place where the rights of homeowners to protect themselves is recognized. The police take one quick look at the face down perp with the gun in his hand and his bag with the rope and duct tape and thank you for your time. On investigation the perp is wanted on several other B&Es and is suspect in a murder case or 20. The sergeant calls and thanks you for saving the state a lot of money and asks if you can go shooting together some time soon.
Bob F.
Member
Archangel: well done. Only criticism: regarding sandwich, probably only got 1/2, other half lying on floor next to yellow puddle, especially if you happened to rack the 870 about the time you yelled!
Rabbi: scenario #2 not all that unlikely in this area; gotta love mountain people!!
Stay safe.
Bob
Rabbi: scenario #2 not all that unlikely in this area; gotta love mountain people!!
Stay safe.
Bob
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