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AD and AIWB

Discussion in 'Handguns: Accessories, Holsters, and Optics' started by stonebuster, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. stonebuster

    stonebuster Member

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    I understand in the event of an AD while appendix carrying you could very likely hit your femoral artery and bleed out. What I don't understand is how that could happen with a striker semi auto with a safety and a kydex holster with a completely covered trigger guard. Is the danger the striker trigger is under pressure and could release/malfunction and go off by itself or is the danger accidentally pulling the trigger on the draw or something(s) else?
     
  2. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    For clarity, are you asking about a striker fired gun with a Glock-type trigger safety, or a striker fired gun with a thumb or grip safety?

    For the typical striker fired gun with just the trigger tab safety, I suspect most accidents are caused during holstering as folks either forget to take their finger off the trigger or something gets in their holster and fouls the trigger, like a lanyard, or part of a cover garment. However, there is a video circulating showing a guy in a shop, where he bends over and it appears as if this drives his already holstered gun deeper into the holster and causes the gun to fire.

    A thumb safety equipped gun, such as models of S&W M&P with this feature, or a grip safety equipped gun like the Springfield XD, if operated properly, should have less problems during reholstering or while holstered, than a gun without those devices.

    There is a device for the Glock, the Striker Control Device (SCD or "The Gadget") that could help with the reholstering issue.

    https://taudevgroup.myshopify.com

    Separately, while I don't think there have been any AIWB incidents, there have been reports of SIG P320's and whatever the FN striker fired gun is (is there more than one?) where these guns have fired, while holstered, with a sharp contact to the gun causing the striker to release, and the firing pin safety didn't stop the gun from firing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  3. HPCadm17

    HPCadm17 Member

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    I figure this would be pretty rare, but local PD armorer, giving a firearms safety training session to my son's Explorers post, demonstrated how this could be possible when using a Kydex holster with positive trigger guard retention that was not made specifically for the gun being carried. The gun may "fit" dimensionally (slide width & height) but minor differences in the area of the trigger guard could spell disaster. My son forgot which gun/holster was being used, but it was demonstrated using a laser bore sight and pointing toward a "safe" wall. Even though the gun "fit" into the holster, forcing it the last fraction of an inch made the trigger go click; they all saw the laser illuminate on the wall.

    From this I can understand the plausibility of improper holster fit/poor holster design being unsafe. That doesn't mean that's what happened in the publicized cases, however it's plausible.

    The armorer did say careless handling (negligence) is by far the leading cause of ND's, and their policy is to check and approve all equipment carried by their officers, on and off duty.

    Back to the original question regarding AIWB, barring some mechanical failure, I figure it's perfectly safe with proper equipment and if all safety precautions are followed. I still have a psychological aversion to it.
     
  4. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    When the SIG P320 had issues with firing when dropped/banged/etc. some folks on another forum took to banging their striker fired guns with mallets, and also reporting strikers releasing with other actions, such as over aggressive mag insertions with some guns.

    Some of the findings I found interesting were the relative ease with which some strikers could release on some guns such as the Walther PPQ, and the finding that the partially cocked striker of the Glock had enough energy to ignite primers. On the good side, other than the aforementioned SIG P320 and FN issues, unless the guns were modified in some way (some aftermarket Glock triggers, maybe?), the firing pin safety prevented these guns from firing, even though the PPQ and VP9 were left with dead triggers and needed to have the slide cycled to recock the striker to allow the guns to fire.
     
  5. stonebuster

    stonebuster Member

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    Thanks for the replies. My question was prompted by how many people I see posting fears about AIWB. I carry AIWB often with a Shield 9 with a thumb safety and a Vedder kydex holster specifically made/fit for the Shield. When I put the gun on it's fully holstered and just snap the clip over my belt. I take the holster off to re-holster the gun so I guess the only way it could go off, barring negligence, would be with a sharp impact.
     
  6. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    If you always holster the way you describe, and holster the gun pointing in a safe direction, and always use the thumb safety, and don't modify the trigger with aftermarket parts... you're about as safe as you can get.

    The AIWB crowd often prefer DA/SA guns for this application as they feel the hammer provides yet another layer of safety.

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-switched-double-action/
     
  7. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    While anything is possible, I haven't heard any reports of this happening with something in the M&P line, at least with unmodified pistols.
     
  8. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    To coin the phrase from Forest Gump .... “It happens” after stepping in poo.

    If you want to carry a chambered firearm pointed at your junk or femoral artery.....you do you. Myself, over the years, I have become quite fond of my boys and no longer feel the need to hold them hostage.

    I would argue that in a proper holster, with proper care and technique you would never have a problem. The problem is this is one of those low probability HIGH IMPACT type events and one that I can mitigate by carrying in a more traditional way. (I’d rather risk a round in my arse or outside thigh. Same low probability with a much lower impact.)

    My personal two cents but again you do you.
     
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  9. Hookeye

    Hookeye Member

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    Off the trigger doesn't also mean out of the trigger guard.
    Some folks think it does..... and have a fun time when holstering a striker gun w no other safety.
    So bad the prob when switched to Glocks, the ISP had their higher ranking troopers grill underlings w safety cards.
    Too many oopsies.
     
  10. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    I've seen a couple of people mention doing what you describe. Just out of curiosity, how often to you train with your primary carry gun and holster and when you do train, how much do you generally shoot? During any given practice session, it's very common for me to draw and re-holster the gun 25-100 times or more in a few hours. It seems like the procedure you describe would get terribly annoying very quickly.
     
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  11. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    To answer your OP though, it could happen due to the safety (I assume by "safety" you're talking about a thumb safety) being bumped off or not put on before re-holstering and then something getting caught in the trigger guard. Or it could be caused by the shooter prematurely taking the safety off with their finger inside the trigger guard when drawing. Obviously, properly drawing and holstering the gun eliminates those issues, just like it does with any pistol, with or without a thumb safety.
     
  12. stonebuster

    stonebuster Member

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    I shoot @ 200 rounds on weekly range trips. When training at the range I'm not taking the holster on and off. When taking the gun on and off at home it stays in the holster with the thumb safety on. I should have been more clear. I found AIWB to be the most comfortable way to carry especially with a 25 oz DAO snub revolver which is my other carry choice. It also allows easy access while driving through the rough parts of a major city at 3-4am to get to a marina. The locals use the stop signs for target practice. I may use the snub AIWB and when I carry the Shield go with IWB 4 o'clock for increased safety. Improper holstering appendix carry, especially after the unlikely event of having to use your weapon could result in BOOM, you're now Bruce Jenner. Shaken in the aftermath it would be easy to make a mistake. I may over think these things but I like to get input from others to help make the right choices. Thanks again for the input.
     
  13. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    That makes more sense. I do the same. When taking the gun off at home, the gun stays in the holster. I carry a DA/SA, which does add an extra level of safety. Thumb on the hammer while holstering allows me to feel if the hammer starts to come back. Obviously, that's secondary to visually confirming that nothing is in the holster.
    I would stick to a single carry location unless a given activity makes it impractical. Consistent, proper practice will almost eliminate (you can't 100% eliminate) the possibility of it being a problem.
    Input from random, un vetted strangers on the internet is often worth what you paid for it. It's a good idea to run that input through a filter made from a solid basis of professional training, regular practice and information and advice from vetted sources.
     
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