Admitting defeat and emailing customer service

[BigMacMI]

That darn 380ACP tho!

I have had a box of 250 .380 pills for my wife's G42 for almost a year now. Every time I sit down to work up a load for that gun, I am plagued with bullet setback. As in, seating the bullet, and I can push it another 0.050 with my thumb/index finger (down to what I consider is a dangerous 0.930, where the case is beyond the beginning of bullet nose radius)

After trying a myriad of options, I had to place an email to Lee, and see if they sell a 'U' die for .380, or if they maybe think it was over machined in production. The .380 has proven too much for me, and I have admitted defeat (for now).

I won't give her a round to shoot at the range unless I am 100% confident in it. My hands/face, so be it, but hers... not a chance.

I have made sure the decapping die is 'cam over' as well as 'as directed' in instructions (touching)
I have gone as far as machining down the shell plate
crimp, no crimp, TAPER and FCD
seating bullet without expanding
machining down the expanding die insert
Measured bullets (duh!)
Increase/decrease seating depth

Did I miss something? My goal was to get her set up with FMJ, then work up a plated round, and eventually cast. And they said setting a 9mm up to shoot without leading was hard!

 

[M1key]

I can't imagine shooting a Glock 42 enough to justify reloading for it much. But when I do reload the caliber, I use 90 XTPs and Winchester 231 with good results in various pistols. I hate using lead bullets.

I still recommend buying a case of factory fmj like Winchester white box. Especially if it's for your wife.

Good luck

M

 

[GooseGestapo]

I have problems with Hornady 90gr XTP in Winchester brass. However, no problem with any other make brass.

No problems whatsoever with my cast bullets at .356 or .357" or Speer 90gr GoldDots in Winchester brass.

Try a different make of brass or bullets.
This used to be a huge problem with the 9mm Para back until the mid 90's. Widely varying tolerances in different brands of ammo. The Remington 9mm brass was notorious for being thin. European 9mm brass for being thick...
After the tidal wave surge in 9mm popularity of late '80's to early 90's, tolerances become more consistent.

 

[rg1]

Undersize bullets? If your expanding die is on size and doing nothing when expanding then your sizing die may be oversized. You should feel a little resistance when the expander enters the case. Sounds like the sizing die is not sizing enough. Contact your die manufacturer or buy another sizing die.

 

[Dudedog]

Using range pick up .380 brass.
Some types of it just seem quite a bit thinner than than others.
Try different brass if you have any available.

I seem to recall someone mentioning issues with Lee sizers in .380, but mine seems ok.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You didn't tell us which bullets you are using and which brass. That is something we need to know. It sounds like you are doing everything right.

One thing, can you push the bullet in more than 5/100" ? That doesn't sound like much especially if that's all it will go. Are you sure it's really moving or just a difference when measuring twice?

 

[drband]

My Lee .380acp dies work just fine. I think you did the right thing containing Lee. Watching for a response!

(I use commercial and range brass, though most of my brass is commercial or from Freedom Munitions reloads.)

I don’t shoot much .380, at least not as much as I used to!

 

[Walkalong]

You need a nice tight sizer because .380 brass is all over the place in case wall thickness. Size a few of the thinnest walled cases, then skip the expansion step and seat bullets. If that solves the neck tension problem your sizer is ok and your expander is too large, or you are running the expander too deep, or both. If you still have neck tension issues, get Lee to replace it, or buy an RCBS die set.

 

[buck460XVR]

I had the same problem two years ago. I contacted Lee and was told it must be my brass and that I needed their "U" die. I bought Lee dies in the first place because I was not going to load a lot of .380 and the price was right. Well.......the "U" die plus shipping was more than the whole original 4 die set. I shoulda just bought RCBS or something else to start with. That said, the "U" die has worked well for me, but it seemed very obvious to me when I talked to them, Lee knows they have issues with their standard .380 sizing die, but still continue to include it in their set. BTW.....it wasn't just "certain" types of brass I had issues with or certain bullets, but all, even Starline and other quality brass, and quality bullets. I found using the standard die I didn't have to flare my cases to start a bullet, regardless of brass or projectile. That should have been my first clue. Just glad I didn't have any bullets setback in the gun.

 

[Rule3]

You didn't tell us which bullets you are using and which brass. That is something we need to know. It sounds like you are doing everything right.

Yep!, but it is always LEES fault.Can't be anything else.

No mention of the bullet? No mention of the brass used? What press, it "cams over"?

All this plus "machining down the shell plate" before finding out the actual issue??

 

[BigMacMI]

Yep!, but it is always LEES fault.Can't be anything else.

No mention of the bullet? No mention of the brass used? What press, it "cams over"?

All this plus "machining down the shell plate" before finding out the actual issue??

Bullets... Well, Winchester 95 grain FMJ. Hornady XTP, and Berry's Plated (.356)

Brass that has failed in this respect. PPU, PMC, Herters, Win, Remington UMC. Has not shown to be consistent to a particular brass brand (thin vs thick cases).

Press Lee Turret

I should have placed operations in order... last ditch was to machine the shell plate
Quote from author Glen Zedike

"If your sizing die doesn’t adequately set back a case shoulder, have a machinist remove metal from the die bottom. Best to use a surface grinder to avoid messing with the heat-treat on the die." - yes, this is for shoulder bumping... I chose to take this information and adapt it to straight wall case.

(http://www.mssblog.com/2016/04/14/cam-over-dont-do-it-just-dont/). Chose to do the shell plate because that is cheaper and less invasive than me physically altering a die and probably ruining it

I never said it's always LEES fault. I have 5 of their die sets, and 2 of their presses. Very happy with their product. If you catch my last line in OP, I implied responsibility on my part for not having this figured out... which is why I needed to call customer SERVICE. To have them tell me what needs be done.

 

[Zendude]

I had the same problem reloading mixed 380 brass. Bought the Lee undersize die and haven’t had the problem since then.

 

[Rule3]

I apologize for coming across "snarky", not feeling well. After reading the post again, seems you have covered all the bases,

It could be just over flaring the case and not setting the FCD correctly to remove the flair or over crimping.

It could indeed be a faulty die. If sending the die back to LEE they usually ask for the die, some of your brass and bullets as well as the shell holder,

Send them a E mail rather than calling.

I did know the LCTP "cams" over?? I believe Glen was talking about shoulders on a necked down rifle brass and do not think 380 ACP has a shoulder?

 

[BigMacMI]

I did know the LCTP "cams" over?? I believe Glen was talking about shoulders on a necked down rifle brass and do not think 380 ACP has a shoulder?

We good. I just didn't want to be seen as a lee basher. I appreciate their product for what it is, and

Yes, you are right... it was a last ditch effort in case there was some taper in there or something. the 380 ACP is indeed straight walled. Lee has been great, and my die and cases are on the way to them. 5 headstamps that all had issues.

it's ok with me if they keep it for a while. currently working on hand-measuring 4 loads for 3 powders to start some ladder testing for next spring... for a G34 I am considering selling . When does the madness end

 

[CZ9shooter]

I ran into this too. At first I wanted to use mixed brass because I did not have a whole lot of it in 380. Turns out you GOTTA sort your 380 brass. Some headstamps offer very tight neck tension, others go in the trash. CBC gives me "Coke bottles," while Win cases barely hang on. Winchester brass gets a bad rep, but I do actually like it in other calibers.

I normally use a Lee die set, but I do have a Hornady sizer too that I forgot about for a long time. I started using that. Turns out it does give me just a tiny bit more tension, one or two thousanths, but I still don't trust the Win brass.

PS: Now I may be way off base here, but I think I remember reading somewhere about using a 223 sizing die to get a slightly smaller diameter on 380 cases. Anyone else hear of this?

 

[Jonesy814]

I load .380 on a Lee classic turret press with the Lee 4 die set and have had no problems. Contacting Lee is probably a good idea. Maybe the dues are out of spec

 

[FROGO207]

Almost all my handgun dies are LEE and work well, but for some reason I purchased a used Lyman set in 380 from another local reloader and they have never given me a moments trouble. YMMV

 

[Rule3]

We good. I just didn't want to be seen as a lee basher. I appreciate their product for what it is, and

Yes, you are right... it was a last ditch effort in case there was some taper in there or something. the 380 ACP is indeed straight walled. Lee has been great, and my die and cases are on the way to them. 5 headstamps that all had issues.

it's ok with me if they keep it for a while. currently working on hand-measuring 4 loads for 3 powders to start some ladder testing for next spring... for a G34 I am considering selling . When does the madness end

No need to sell the gun, unless you just don't like it.

I used to "collect" 380 handguns and have loaded a gazillion rounds on a Lee turret, with Lee dies, all mixed brass, many different bullets, and have no issues.

 

[ATLDave]

As others have indicated, different brands of brass are different. Some brands of brass are thinner. More difficult to deal with, some brands of brass seem to get work-hardened very easily and will no longer resize after X number of firing/sizing cycles.

I can tell you from personal experience that PPU 10mm brass will work great for X cycles, and then, loaded on precisely the same press with precisely the same dies with precisely the same adjustment, will give you horrendous setback issues. The really miserable part is that X seems to vary by case.

In trying to solve any reloading problem, it is best to isolate variables. Try some new, high-quality brass and see what happens. If it persists, you have a die or press or adjustment issue. If it goes away, you may just be using worn-out brass.

 

[beag_nut]

I did not see any reference to this, the factory crimp die from Lee. It's what I use, and there is NO ability to move the bullet by finger pressure. Unfortunately the Lee website makes it a little difficult to find:
https://leeprecision.com/carbide-factory-crimp-die-380-auto.html

Hope this helps, as it does for me.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

The reloading process is first to reduce the ID/OD of the brass with the full length sizing die. Next we expand the ID/OD of the brass with the expander plug (we also flare the very end of the brass which when properly done has little effect on neck tension). Then we further expand the ID/OD by seating the bullet, assuming we did not expand the ID larger than the bullet diameter. Finally we reduce the ID/OD again in the FCD if we over-expanded the brass when seating the bullet while we add a crimp that has little effect on the bullet retention.

If the brass is thicker, we will reduce the ID of the brass more than if the brass in thinner, resulting in more interference with the expander plug. I first check interference with the bullet after sizing but before expanding when evaluating brands of brass to make sure the sizer is sizing down enough (so far, they all have).

If the brass is thicker, the ID will be expanded less by the expander plug than if the brass is thinner because there is more spring back with the thicker brass. I check interference with the bullet after expanding to see if I have enough resistance to seating the bullet (resulting in enough neck tension). If you try to over flare the mouth, the shoulder of the expander plug will contact the case mouth and if too much force is applied you can crush and expand the case ID, reducing neck tension further.

It is possible if you are using oversize lead bullets, the FCD can resize the brass and lead bullet down and due to spring back with the brass and not with the lead, you can lose neck tension. This should not be a problem with standard diameter bullets and conforming brass.

I have chucked some of my expander plugs in a lathe and polished down the expander nose .001"-.002" to insure sufficient neck tension regardless of brass thickness. I have yet to have a resizer that doesn't size down small enough, but it could happen.

 

[Walkalong]

I did not see any reference to this, the factory crimp die from Lee. It's what I use, and there is NO ability to move the bullet by finger pressure.

That is nothing more than a standard pistol FCD which taper crimps like any other taper crimp die, and also "post sizes" the round to make sure it chambers, even if it has to squeeze the round down to do so, which can actually decrease neck tension if the bullet is too fat because the case expands back more than the soft bullet.

Using it isn't the reason your rounds don't suffer from set back, and will not cure the OP's problem. Your bullets don't suffer from setback because the case is being sized enough, the expander is not too large and is being used properly, and you are not over crimping.

 

[CJ8281]

If you happen to reload the 223, you might try the 223 resizing die. I have loaded a few rounds for a friend using that route, worked fine. BTW I used the RCBS regular 9mm expander and seating/crimp die to finish the rounds.

 

[BigMacMI]

Update. Peter from Lee sent me a new die. Loaded 25 test rounds no case tension issues detected. New die is not marked with a ‘u’ as I have seen on 9mm. I have not had further correspondence besides his hand written note in the box that he replaced it. Lee cust service has ALWAYS done me right. As I said before. I am all Lee reloading equip (minus Lyman m die for cast). Sometimes takes some tweaking. But they stand by their product.

 

[drband]

Excellent! Lee CS is usually pretty good. Glad they took care of you.
So they replaced the sizing die? Correct?