Advice for a gun safe?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Floridian

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
3
I need to purchase a decent gun safe. I'd like to keep the price reasonable, between 1000-2000, but I dont want to skimp and get a junker. What are some good makes? And what fire rating should I get? I've seen everything from 1200F for 30 minutes to 1550 for 1 hour. Is there really a difference between 1200F and 1550F?

I've been looking at a Browning safe 60 inches tall, 30 inches wide and 27 inches deep. It was 780 pounds, and had a 1550F for 30 minute fire rating. Price was 1700, but like I said, I have absolutely no clue what to be looking for in a gun safe. Any advice would be helpful!!
 
Purty soon the safe sellers are going to pop up and tell you the Residential Security Containers (RSC's) you are looking at are NOTHING like the safes they sell and that you have to spend 5 grand to get any protection at all. Forewarned is forearmed.
 
Like I have said before...unless you have some sentimental firearms why worry about the fire rating. A fireman friend of mine said that the chances are if the fire completely destroys your house even things inside the firesafe would be ruined. If you are insured they will all be covered and you would get to buy all new firearms. So spend the money on a bigger size rather than fire rating.
 
Thanks for the advice. Although im still very unsure what things I need to be looking for before buying a safe. Any advice on make? Browning, Winchester, Fort Knox? I honestly dont know. What about a combination over a punch pad?
 
Floridian said:
Thanks for the advice. Although im still very unsure what things I need to be looking for before buying a safe. Any advice on make? Browning, Winchester, Fort Knox? I honestly dont know. What about a combination over a punch pad?
Well, Just get a good gauge steel. It should feel very heavy and solid. Also look for a good number of actually locking bars at least 3/4 in diameter. Eight or more is good. Nothing is fool proof. Just make it as hard as possible to get into and make sure to bolt it in place. Mark my words, some guy wanting to be pi$$y will come into this thread and tell you how "any crook with a sledge hammer and a circular saw" will be able to break into your safe. Still, you need to do what you can to keep them out of the hands of the criminals. Also buy 2 or 3 times as much safe as you feel you will need and I personally prefer a combo over a keypad. I just like there to be as few things that need batteries as possible. I would also suggest a seperate single gun safe with the figered keypad for you HD gun to be kept in your bedroom.
 
Last edited:
My experience: Get the biggest safe you can! 14 guns? Pfft, maybe 14 skinny single shots. Well, I can cram 14 in there if I pick the right ones and work hard, but damn did that safe fill up quick!
 
keeping the safe secret

If nobody knows it's there....nobody will know to break into it.

$1,500 could pay for some pretty serious renovations.....say a false wall in the back of a deep closset.......kind of like Corry ten Boom's hiding place.

May need to secure more than just your guns some day.
 
Purty soon the safe sellers are going to pop up and tell you the Residential Security Containers (RSC's) you are looking at are NOTHING like the safes they sell and that you have to spend 5 grand to get any protection at all.

Well I'm not a safe seller. Safe sellers are typically gun stores and sporting goods shops that happen to sell safes. I'm a professional locksmith which specializes in safes and vault doors.

Whereas most safe sellers simply sell safes and pass along all of the information they've read in the catalog, I move safes (sometimes weighing thousands and thousands of pounds), install safes, work on and repair safes, and even open them up when they're locked (without combination or after a burglary attempt).

The difference between a safe seller and myself, is that a safe seller can only dream about the 007 type of experiences that I get to live day in and day out. :D

With that said, it's my professional responsibility not to blow smoke up anybody's rear end. I'm not going to give people information which I know to be false just to make a sale (which many safe sellers do). There's a little thing in the locksmith business known as "ethics", and since safes amount to an "insurance" type of product, the customer should be made well aware of all the facts surrounding their purchase.

I need to purchase a decent gun safe. I'd like to keep the price reasonable, between 1000-2000, but I dont want to skimp and get a junker. What are some good makes?

In that price range, one of the best safes currently on the market is the AMSEC BF series. This isn't one of the best safes because I sell them, it's one of the best safes because of the way it's built. The AMSEC BF series offers a better safe, with better security, than many of the other safes in the same price range.

And what fire rating should I get? I've seen everything from 1200F for 30 minutes to 1550 for 1 hour. Is there really a difference between 1200F and 1550F?

Gun safes are really for the storage of guns, and not everything else the manufacturers claim they are good for. Document safes are UL rated for a reason. Not many gun safes have a UL fire rating. Fire ratings are also not intended to keep the safe's items in pristine condition, but merely to keep them salvagable. I have seen safes with damaged contents after a fire.

A Chain is only as strong as its weakest link. In gun safes, that weakest link is the thin steel often used. When comparing safes for security, the first thing I would look at is the steel. After that, make sure they are using a UL listed lock.

The number of locking bolts or how many sides of the door they are on makes little difference on a gun safe. Again, the thin steel of the safe will rip and tear before a door bolt sheers. Of course a little common sense applies: 5 bolts are better than 1, but 30 is overkill.

As far as locks are concerned, I personally prefer mechanical locks. They tend to be more reliable and last longer than electronic locks. Electronic locks are a lot faster to use, especially under stress, if that's important to you.

In conclusion: some gun safes are better than others, but most of them are not the "holy grail", "I can do everything", "end all be all of safes" that manufacturers make them out to be. Different safes are built for different purposes. Gun safes are built to offer a lower level of security in order to keep firearms out of unauthorized hands. If you have valuables or other important items, you need to look at something besides a gun safe.
 
+1 on keeping the safe secret. the first thing thieves go after are jewelry and guns because they sell fast. It doesn't cost an arm and a leg to build one either. Build a false wall behind a staircase for instance and turn the rest into a closet for cleaning storage. You get the point. It won't turn away professional thieves but it will turn away every one else. If you want to you can always leave out a "cheapie" to deter a thief from looking any further.
Make your place of residence a harder target and less tempting. Get a dog like a German Shepherd. Keep your bushes cut low and deck the place with motion detector lights. Infrared cameras are a godsend if you want to prosecute offenders or repeat offenders.
 
Not to be rude, but the search function here is your friend. It will take you to the half dozen similar threads started in the past year where real locksmiths, like a1abdj, have given freely of their professional advice.
 
Look up RSC or Residential Security Container.

And yes, has been covered several times recently.

Summaring: most "safes" aren't. They're RSC's and other than the door are made from light gauge mild steel that a kid can peel open with 15 minutes a hammer and a screwdriver.

Real safes have UL listed ratings for theft deterrence and are much bigger and heavier.

Having said that, I agree with the insurance discussion - keep them hidden and locked up in some nominal security cabinet. If they are lost in a fire, get new ones.
 
PlayboyPenguin said:
Like I have said before...unless you have some sentimental firearms why worry about the fire rating. A fireman friend of mine said that the chances are if the fire completely destroys your house even things inside the firesafe would be ruined. If you are insured they will all be covered and you would get to buy all new firearms. So spend the money on a bigger size rather than fire rating.

when you get a safe, you will most likely do so to store lots of things, not just guns. i keep things like old family photographs and jewelry that are irreplaceable. i keep antique swords and their NBTHK papers. i would hope it's obvious why most people wouldn't consider fire protection a waste of money.

i have the large yeager model from fort knox. it is excellent. i highly recommend it. it was a bit pricey though. i used to have the the 800lb size Winchester brand, but i'm sure they were just OEMed and i don't know who actually made them. That winchester safe was also excellent. i had no problems with either. both had electronic keypads, which i strongly prefer.

granted, I've never had anyone stupid enough to attempt to break in, or had my house burn down, so i can't tell you how well the safes perform from personal experience.

I will say that you should think about what types of guns you'll store when determining your space requirements. in my case, it's almost exclusively civilian versions of military arms. everything has a sling. lots of things have bipods and scopes. the point is, stuff like AR15s with a couple of accessories (lights/lasers/foregrips/etc) take up much more room than your standard hunting rifles. So, if they claim you can store 30 rifles in one side, just because there are 30 notches 2" apart... maybe you can, and maybe you'll be lucky to get 10 guns in there.
 
taliv said:
when you get a safe, you will most likely do so to store lots of things, not just guns. i keep things like old family photographs and jewelry that are irreplaceable. i keep antique swords and their NBTHK papers. i would hope it's obvious why most people wouldn't consider fire protection a waste of money.

i have the large yeager model from fort knox. it is excellent. i highly recommend it. it was a bit pricey though. i used to have the the 800lb size Winchester brand, but i'm sure they were just OEMed and i don't know who actually made them. That winchester safe was also excellent. i had no problems with either. both had electronic keypads, which i strongly prefer.

granted, I've never had anyone stupid enough to attempt to break in, or had my house burn down, so i can't tell you how well the safes perform from personal experience.
.
See previous post by a1abdj. He summed it up pretty well. Better to get a fire safe for the other valuables and just get a strudy "gunsafe" for the guns.
 
I got fort KNox and love it. (also electronic lock) :)
OK consider your location of safe. If you have basement consider locating it there. It is a cooler (in case of fire) location. BUT consider water damage. I have three sumps (gravity) in basement so I (hope) the water level won't get high enough to enter safe. (on cement base 6" above cement floor)
I have been tempted to put a plastic water containers ontop of safe. Figure with the cover if heat builds up the plastic melts and water drenchs safe cover/maybe keep it cooler for another few minutes. (exterior)
I have considered making a vault. Have bid on a few older vault doors. (schools that are being demoed/no luck.
ANY safe is advantage. Get it bigger then you think. I am in market for second one.
 
I have a Champion safe that I think it pretty good. Very sturdy with 3 or 4 lock bolts on either side fo the door. Good size also. Personally, I think $1700 is a bit steep. If there are any big gun shows in your area, there are often safe sellers at them with a lot of safes to look at. You can bolt most safes to the floor so look at the possibility of getting 2 or 3 smaller safes instead of one big one. They will be a lot easier to move.

+1 to what a1abdj said. I am more concerned with theft than fire.
 
See previous post by a1abdj. He summed it up pretty well. Better to get a fire safe for the other valuables and just get a strudy "gunsafe" for the guns.


why would i want two safes, one of which offers no fire protection for my guns, when i can get one large safe that protects everything?
 
why would i want two safes, one of which offers no fire protection for my guns, when i can get one large safe that protects everything?

Because the notion that a gun safe can protect everything is a fallacy created by a marketing professional employed by a gun safe manufacturer.

These companies claim you should use your gun safe for everything under the sun, but the truth is, the safe won't protect them.

One of my favorite examples is the the mention of irreplaceable family photos in one breath, and the statement that their safe will only reach 350 degrees in a 1,200 degree fire in the next. Photos will melt at 125-150 degrees. What they're saying is "You need our safe to protect your photos, but your photos won't really be protected in our safe"

If you want to buy a safe that does everything, they are available. One large enough for guns starts in the $5,000 range, and will weigh over 3,000 pounds. A safe like this can have a UL Tool rating, a composite construction (which offers fireproofing), and you can throw in a media container for the photos or computer media.

Safes are tools. Just like there's a tool for driving nails and a tool for turning a screw, safes are designed to serve specific functions. The more functions they serve, the more expensive they become.
 
Good points about pics/etc.
I have been thinking of getting the second gun safe for mainly (stuff) camera/photos/DVDs etc and putting it against a exterior corner in basement. (up on pad) then build a block wall on third side/over top and a cut down (metal clad) door. figure that might be enough to protect valuables?
 
i don't think anyone here is under the illusion that anything inside the safe is magically immune to heat. i'm just saying some protection is better than no protection.

i'm not a safe guru, but i've done a quick search on google and found several document fire safes and their UL ratings are only slightly better (e.g. 2 hr vs 90 min) than the UL rating on my gun safe, which also has a fireproofing layer between the steel and the interior lining.

pricing on the document fire safes seems to be around $1300 for 6 cubic feet. A 45 cubic ft gun safe with almost the same fire protection is about twice the price.

i'm not saying you guys are wrong. but you're going to have to help me understand why the separate safes are better.
 
i'm not a safe guru, but i've done a quick search on google and found several document fire safes and their UL ratings are only slightly better (e.g. 2 hr vs 90 min) than the UL rating on my gun safe, which also has a fireproofing layer between the steel and the interior lining.

I'm not aware of any safe currently marketed as a gun safe which carries a UL fire rating. Most likely you are confusing your safe's UL RSC rating with it's independently rated fire tag (which is a trick these safe manufacturers use).

UL tests fire safes starting at 1550 degrees for 30 minutes, 1700 degrees for an hour, and 1800 degrees for 2 hour or greater ratings. Most gun safes are rated at 1200 degrees.

UL tests fire safes to survive a 30 foot fall onto rubble, to replicate a safe falling through a floor, or a building collapsing onto the safe. I've never heard of a gun safe being tested like this.

UL tests safes to ensure the rising heat and moisture inside the safe will not create enough pressure to blow the safe open. Again, gun safes are not tested to this degree.

A UL fire tag is a big deal in the safe business. Why don't any gun safes have them? Gun safes don't have UL fire tags because gun safes will fail the testing.

The testing that the UL performs ensures that your safe will meet minimum standards for the task at hand, and the requirements are chosen for a reason.

pricing on the document fire safes seems to be around $1300 for 6 cubic feet. A 45 cubic ft gun safe with almost the same fire protection is about twice the price.

It's not the same fire protection. The fireproofing in a document safe will outperform the insulation in gun safes every time.

Most of the insulation in a document safe is full of moisture and cooks off in the event of a fire. This moisture keeps the interior temps down, and keeps flammable items from igniting. Some safes use composite insulation, which are dry, yet highly resistant to heat. Most gun safes use gypsum board.

There are cars available for $15,000, and cars available for $300,000. They both will have 4 wheels, a gas pedal, and a motor, but they are far from being able to do the same things.
 
why would i want two safes, one of which offers no fire protection for my guns, when i can get one large safe that protects everything?

Its totally possible to get security and fire resistance in a safe that can hold guns, plus a lot of shelving space for other objects. You would save more by buying one safe as apposed to two.
 
It's not the same fire protection. The fireproofing in a document safe will outperform the insulation in gun safes every time.
I wouldn't say every fire safe on the market my friend. Our insulator is normally used for insulating high temperature ovens and kilms.--dont know how to spell that. Kilm? oh well.
We tested it in actual burn downs...no labs. Proof is in the pudding. Take care.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top