Advice/opinions needed for 3-gun match rules

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rock jock

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I will be organizing a 3-gun match this coming fall and need to start putting together some scenarios for stages and match rules. Right now, I want to concentrate on the rules only. Later, I will be soliciting opinions on stages/scenarios. Basically, what I am looking for is some opinions on what folks like/prefer in match rules in terms of equipment and procedures. First, I will relate what my own preferences are based on my limited experience in shooting IDPA, 3-gun matches, and tactical carbine matches. I would appreciate your own opinions and a critique of my own.

I should mention first that my philisophy on 3-gun matches is: 1) they should be as realistic as possible (given obvious restrictions), i.e., as little gaming as possible, 2) they should be fun, 3) they should involve a lot of shooting, and 4) they should have as few rules as possible (with the exception of safety rules). So, based on that, I am thinking of the following guidelines for the match:

1. Handgun portion will be loosely based on IDPA, with the following exceptions:
- scoring will be 1 pt and 3 pts down for the areas outside of the COM and 5 pts down for a miss with NO failure to neutralize penalties
- no tactical reloads (I don't think these are realistic)
- 10-round restriction on mags
- no breakdown of gun categories (i.e., CDP, SSP, ESP) - I figure that in a real shootout, you can't complain because your 1911 officers model only holds 7 rds and Mr. Gangbanger's gun holds 10
- no tactical order or tactical sequence
- no drawing from concealment
- no raceguns, no comps, no optics (i.e., only front/rear sights)
- holsters limited to IDPA-type only
- minimum of 9mm power level

2. Shotguns
- no comps
- no speedloaders
- no optics
- 20 gauge minimum (I plan to have heavy ground targets set up that will be very difficult to knock down with a 20 anyway, thus advantage 12 gauge)
- maximum of eight shells in the tube
- sidesaddle shell holders OK; arm bands not OK

3. Rifles
- no minimum on power level (I will solve this by having auto-poppers that will only go down with a minimum of a .223)
- maximum 30-rd mags
- no distinction or advantage given to iron sights over optics
- any optics OK (scenarios will involve targets from 15-225 yds)
- mag pouches anywhere on the body OK

Thanks in advance.
 
I'm a 3gun match director with www.udpl.net. Five 40-50 person matches a year. I can tell you right now that you are going to want to break it up into classes. We run 4 different ones.

Otherwise people with .223 carbines with some form of optic and auto shotguns will absolutely dominate the match. There is a reason that just about every major 3gun match in the country runs multiple classes.

People like to shoot what they own. If you don't own/can't afford a nice optic, an auto shotgun, or a high cap pistol it is funner to see how you rank against other people with similar equipment. Rather than just getting beat to a pulp by people with guns better suited for gameing.

I ran with a pump exclusively for the first few years that I shot 3gun, and I'm probably one of the better pumpgunners out there, but no matter how fast you are your split times will lag behind an auto with a decently proficient shooter. On the issue of speed loaders. They are very popular with the IPSC open class crowd. (who make up a big group of 3gunners) we let people run them, but they have to be in an Open class. (anything goes). What if somebody wants to shoot a Saiga or a USAS? Be prepared for the mag fed issue. (we put ours in open)

You say side saddles are okay, but arm bands are not? Why? What about a bandoleer? Arm bands (though I don't normally use one) are actually pretty practical. And if you are looking at this from a realistic stand point, if you can take the time to strap on shell carriers, bandoleers, belt pouches, rifle mag pouches, or dump bags, why not an arm carrier? If you start banning items just because they don't fit your particular tactical belief, be prepared to have shooters argue with you.

On shotgun porting. What about Vang Comp work? Lots of LEO shooters using them.

The WC3gun is an excellent example. It had probably the strictest equipment rules of any 3gun competition. But some of them just did not make a lick of sense. Your mag carriers had to cover a certain amount of the magazine, but G-Code or BladeTech carriers fell short, and they were probably some of the best carriers ever designed. Only certain optics were allowed, unless you could prove that a military or police group was using that optic. And you could use a red dot, but your iron sights had to cowitness with it. Well guess what? I've seeing pics of Delta and SFers from Astan and Iraq with EoTechs and Aimpoints mounted in all sorts of ways that would be against WC3gun rules. So much for one person's "tactical" judgement.

Your same argument about the 7 shot commander vs. a 10 shot gang banger applies if somebody wants to shoot a 17 shot Glock. We have a limited class wherein 10 shots is max, and other classes that allow shooters to actually have fun with their high caps.

Give some thought to how you want to address tac slings, which can be a major beneift on transition stages, but can create a range safety issue if someone is not careful.

Just some food for thought. You learn as you go. We have revised our rules ever year. And we are going to revise them again this year. (pump only in limited, and I'm going to argue for removing our 9 shot capactiy limit for Open shotguns, if you want to run a longer tube it has its own penalty).
 
For not liking rules, you seem to have a lot. Check the Multi-Gun rules used by Superstition Mystery Mountain 3-Gun and the recently announced USPSA Multi-gun rules on their site.
 
Correia,

Some very good points you make. I have given them some thought and my only concern is, when you are talking about three different guns, you have three different sets of equipment. Some folks are going to have an AR with an optic (which is very common these days), but not a comped scattergun, or maybe a comped scattergun, but not a race gun. As you say, folks will compete with what they have. So, how do you classify them with mixed equipment? How do you, for example, classify a comped pump shotgun? A non-comped semi-auto? Both clearly have an advantage over a non-comped pump. One thing I don't want to do is have ten different classes. I also don't plan to give out individual trophies for handgun, shotgun, and rifle, only combined scores.

I do have a solution, though. It is one that is sure to make no one happy, which tells me that I might be on the right track. Instead of setting aside multiple classes, simply assign a handicap based on the feature in question. The bare-bones basic equipment would be set as the default, or baseline, with no handicap. For example, a shooter with an optic on a carbine would automatically have, lets say 10 seconds, added to their score. A comped semi-auto might have 10 seconds added while a non-comped semi might have 5 seconds added. Now, the big question is, how would I assign the handicaps? I figure that I would have 3 or four shooters in my club run through some example scenarios (short ones), with each firing a gun with and without the added features. I would then calculate an average percent difference in the scores and figure a handicap based on that feature. Yes, there is a certain amount of subjectivity built into this method, but there is going to be a disparity among equipment that exists no matter what you do. In this way, at least the playing field is leveled to some degree.
 
Helmut,

I have seen those rules before and the one thing I don't like about them is this statement:
Any Open Class gun OR Open Class equipment puts the competitor in Open Class for the entire match.
Click to expand...
I think this is fundamentally flawed. As Correia pointed out, people are going to shoot what they have. I for example, have a Holosight on my carbine, but have a pump shotgun and an off-the-shelf Glock. Another shooter from our club uses an iron-sighted AR but a comped semi-auto scattergun. Both of us, according to this rule, would automatically be lumped in with other shooters that have tricked out race guns and long guns that would be way ahead of us, equipment-wise.
 
rock jock........if you have 1 optic on your rifle....that would be tactical scope class

(rifle-1 optic/pistol iron sight no comp/shotgun-no comp or optic)

....personally.....you can throw out all the open equipment if you are shooting a tactical 3gun match......in my opinion..but if you are wanting to draw in alot of people to a match.....you will need to have classes, or you run the risk of having low numbers show up......
 
In my club we put people into the whatever class their highest gun puts them in. For example, I've been using a magazine fed shotgun, a high cap pistol, but a regular iron sighted rifle. Because of the shotgun I've been in Open. Since I like shooting my Saiga in competition, I'm going to buy an EoTech. (bought my wife a dining room set last night, so FINALLY I can justify it!)

Our 4 classes are:

Limited: 10 shot pistols. 20 shot rifles. Iron sights. Pump shotguns, 7 rounds. (right now it is pump or auto, but we are going to change that).
Tactical: High cap pistol. 30 shot rifle. Iron sights. Auto or pump, up to 9 shots.
TRO: (tactical rifle optic) same as tactical, but with optics allowed.
Open: Anything goes.

Some big matches run a He-man class, single stack pistols, and .30 caliber rifles. They do this to encourage folks to shoot the big rifles.

It really kind of depends on what crowd you are catering too. Porting on shotguns hasn't been an issue, because in my regular shooters nobody uses them. We made TRO this year when everybody started showing up with scopes.

When we post the scores we do an overall: www.udpl.net/results/3-Gun/5-15-04/3-GunMatchResultsByTime-5-15-04.htm And we do it by division: www.udpl.net/results/3-Gun/5-15-04/3-GunMatchResultsByDiv-5-15-04.htm Interestingly enough the winner of the 4 division made up the top 4 shots. Proving that the individual shooter trumps equipment.
 
Like Helmut has said, keep it simple. The RM3G rules and the SMM3G rules are just that. Although Furbee has some strange criteria for scopes.

In a nutshell...

Any comps on your pistol, your in open. Any comps or speedloaders on your shotgun, your in open. More than one optic on your rifle and your in open. Stay inside those equipment rules, and you are in tactical. Adding holster restrictions will add headaches to the RO and you that need to ensure compliance. Make it easy, you drop a loaded pistol your DQ’ed. If your holster wont retain the gun while running, find another.

Dont try to reinvent the rules. Been there. Done that.

I run a little club in Colorado that puts on about 40-45 IPSC and IDPA matches a year. 12 of them being 3-gun and the State Law Enforcement Championship.

Tom Freeman
 
I appreciate the input, but I still have a problem with kicking someone into an open category if they have one open feature on one gun. The problem, as I see it, is two categories are too restricting and four or five make the match too diversified. The latter makes sense when you have 200 competitors, but with 50 you might only have four or five in a single category. We see this in IDPA matches every month - a couple of people in revolver, one or two in ESP and the rest evenly divided among CDP and SSP. When the only only prizes are a hearty handshake and nod of congratulations, there's not much at stake. I still think adding or subtracting pts as a handicap is the one way to even the playing field, although assigning the handicaps in an equitable manner is the tough part. I'll have to sit down and think about this.
 
Don't forget that in theory (fingers crossed) your match will take place the month after the ban sunsets. There might be a whole lot more people with high capacity stuff and belt fed shotguns. :) :) We can hope at least.
 
Thats because the stupid Open class guy screwed up. Thankfully his OPEN CLASS shotgun reloads made up for his crappy rifle shooting enough to keep him in the top 5. :)

Edited to add, Rock, I understand what you are saying about having one gun bump you into a higher class, but that is the nature of the beast. I've been shotting a very basic iron sighted rifle that I could use in limited, and a very basic iron sighted pistol that I could load with only 10 rounds if I wanted. If I use my regular old shotgun I can shoot in limited. However for the last year I've been playing with an Open class shotgun so it bumps me into the open class, even though I'm shooting two other guns that are very basic. That is just the breaks. You make your choice and you go with it.
 
**UPDATE**

I had to cancel planning for the October match before I even advertised it because of schedule conflicts. The match will be bumped to April 30th, 2005. I have thought lots about the various classes based on equipment and have decided to not have them PERIOD. I know some 3-gun addicts will disagree with this, but, as I noted before, multiple classes with only 40-50 competitors leaves you with maybe 5-6 folks in a single class. Instead, I will use a definition of "tactical" to dictate what is allowed. The definition of tactical is entirely subjective and is my own. It is based on what is IMO common for potential LE/armed citizen encounters:

1. Handguns - no comps, no raceguns, no reddot optics, ammo capacity limited to 10 rds
2. Shotguns - no speedloaders, no comps, shell carriers attached to the gun are allowed, only 7 shells in the tube
3. Rifles - 30-rd mag capacity, no ported barrels, FH and MB are fine, any optic is fine, no mag pouches (extra mags have to be carried in a pocket, stuffed in belt, etc.) although a dual-mag coupler is allowed

To even the playing field, semi-auto shotguns and rifles with optics other than iron sights will be assessed a 10-sec handicap for each category. This is the most inclusive set of rules that I can think of. There will be three classes based on rankings, top tier, sendond tier, etc.

I will post an application pdf when I get a flyer ready.
 
I'm curious as to why you have a problem with kicking someone into Open, but you don't have a problem with bumping them out of the match entirely.

I look at the rules you've given there, and I think "too restrictive." People want to come out to a 3 gun to have fun with their toys, and if you say right off the bat that they can't use their toys, they won't come. Plus, I think you'll get bickering over the fairness of your penalty for using an auto shotgun, etc regardless of how large or small you make the penalty.

I know you say you want to keep it "realistic," but if you're giving out trophies, then it's a game, and you'll get gamers. Better to let the gamers shoot open, and the "realistic" crowd shoot He-man.

For the record, the way I'd do it is:

Open: Anything goes.

Limited:
Pistol - no comps, no optics.
Shotgun - no comps, no optics, no speedloaders
Rifle - no comps larger than 1"x3", no optics, no bi-pods

Tactical:
Limited pistol and shotgun, limited rifle w/ 1 optic

He-Man:
Pistol - limited pistol, 10 round limit, manly caliber (.45, 10mm, .454 casul, etc. .40 S&W need not apply)
Shotgun - limited, 12 ga pump
Rifle - limited, .308 or larger

If you're doing the match for anything more than bragging rights, then give trophies to best overall, and best for each division. There's no second place in a gunfight. :p


My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
I look at the rules you've given there, and I think "too restrictive." People want to come out to a 3 gun to have fun with their toys, and if you say right off the bat that they can't use their toys, they won't come.
Click to expand...
Simply because I really don't want to host anything like an IPSC match, where folks bring guns that that have only a single application, i.e., gaming. We have held a couple 3-gun matches at our club before (although I did not arrange them) and nobody showed up with game guns even though they were not specifically excluded. That is how I perferred it, and that is how the other club members preferred it. Both those matches were barely advertised, and we still ended up with 25 people. I am certainly no expert, but I do know that when it comes to gun matches, there is always going to be a group that doesn't like the rules and will complain no matter what.

If you're doing the match for anything more than bragging rights, then give trophies to best overall, and best for each division. There's no second place in a gunfight.
Click to expand...
True, but this isn't a gunfight.
 
Please define racegun. In other words, will a USPSA Limited division legal STI 2011 in a Ky-Tac belt (non race) holster be allowed to play?

I have no problem downloading from 20 rounds to 10, as long as everyone else does.
 
Well, I would say any gun that is not comped and has no optics would be fine. Any holster that would be legal under the old IDPA rules would be fine. I don't plan to check very closely unless someone has an obvious race gun holster.
 
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