After a shooting -- questions for LEOs only

[Shootin' Buddy]

I have two questions for the LEOs among us.

1) After a shooting, when you arrive on scene, what would you ideally like to find the Good Guy doing? Suppose, for example, you get a call on a disturbance involving guns. You show up on the scene and some guy is pointing a gun at another guy. The other guy is standing there with his hands up. You don't know it yet, but the guy with the gun is a store owner. The guy with his hands up is a robber who clobbered the store owner's wife with a baseball bat.

What can the good guy do to improve his chances of surviving the incident when you come onto the scene? What would you, as an officer, like to see honest citzens do to clarify this situation?

2) After a shooting, when you arrive on scene, what sorts of things do you expect to hear an innocent person saying or not saying? What can I, as a card-carrying good guy, do to improve my chances that the responding officers will be on my side and write a favorable report? Should I say nothing at all in order to improve my chances of not getting arrested on the spot?

I'm particularly looking for some answers from police officers, so please identify whether you are or are not an LEO to begin your post.

Don

 

[Steve in PA]

1) You will be ordered to drop the weapon immediately and get on the floor. I have no idea who is who........you could be the bad guy and the other guy could be the good guy. Both will be placed in handcuffs and then given a chance to tell your individual sides of the situation.

If you are holding the guy at gunpoint and are able to.....or had someone else call 911........make sure you give your name and a description of yourself, what your wearing, etc.....so atleast I have some idea of who the good guy might be.

Either put the weapon down or holster it when you see the LEOs arriving....you'll know, because it'll be lights and sirens all over the place.

DO NOT HOLD THE WEAPON AND TURN TOWARDS THE OFFICER!!!!!

2) Just tell the facts. We don't "take sides" or write a "favorable reports". Either you did what you did and it was correct........or it wasn't. See me posting in the other thread as to what you should say. Clamming up is not going to help the situation.

And yes I am a LEO.

 

[tetleyb]

Wow, you can't be like that, you mean your logical and you think about your safety first? I'm shocked, appalled even. How in the hell can you even think about protecting and serving? I mean, sheesh, the poor store owner is just a gun owner and your treating him like a criminal. Handcuff him? How dare you...

That is a tongue in cheek statement and is basically responding to me being slammed by several people, for reacting almost the sameway as you, in a related thread. Yes, I'm a police officer, and yes, I would react the same way as you.

However, there are several people on this website who are not "law enforcement friendly." They believe police officers are "out to get them," and they owe the police nothing "but their id" and nothing else. It couldn't be what you said, we don't "take sides."

Ok, rant off.

 

[HeavyHaul]

First off, I am not an LEO.
However, I have been in a similar situation. BG was shot, GG (me) was still holding the weapon on BG when the police showed up. I was ordered to drop the gun and put my hands in the air. I IMMEDIATLY did as ordered. I had informed the 911 operator as to what I was wearing, my height, weight, race, and even the weapon used. It was not relayed to the officers on scene. Yes, I was "cuffed and stuffed". Once the officers figured out the facts, I was released. Of course that was not until we were at the PD, and I'd been in custody for about 3 hours. The gun was taken as evidence. It was returned 2 months after the DA declared it a "justifiable shooting", and mountains of paperwork. Mostly generated by me.
Would I do the same again? Yes. However, I have put some effort into meeting and talking to the patrol officers that routinely patrol the area I live in. And hopefully, will now have at least one more shooting buddy to show for it. And at least one of the officers that show up, should I be in a similar situation again, will at least recognise me. They will probably do the same as before. But at least it will be a bit more friendly. And maybe, just maybe, I'll get my gun back sooner. God forbid that it ever happen again. But it might. The BG gets out of jail in 4 more years, if he behaves and gets time off for good behavior. As of now, I have no plans to move. But you can bet that my SA will go up drastically, in 4 years.

Bill

 

[NIGHTWATCH]

tetleyb...

I have nothing against LEO'S. Unless they THINK WE OWE THEM SOMETHING.

1) Its a job. A dangerous job that YOU CHOSE. I respect your service but why should I trust you unconditionally?
2) Its a job that you can CHOOSE to leave. You knew this going in. How do I owe you?

 

[El Tejon]

Shootin',

1) do what the copper(s) tells you--no sense in winning the battle to lose the war in being shot by the 23 year old rookie;

2) the police are not trained to debrief the innocent--shut up. "Being your friend" is an old police trick and extremely effective. Shut up. Do not think you are smarter than the police and "explain" everything to them. Shut up. In conclusion, shut up.

 

[Paul Gomez]

A Tangential Question

LEOs, what policies (if any) do you have concerning what kind of statements you make after an officer involved shooting?

Do you immediately give a statement to the investigating officer?

 

[tetleyb]

Mr Gomez,

Good question. You have several issues involved in an officer involved shooting. At least here in California. I can't speak for the rest of the country. In the county I work in, you undergo a total of 3 investigations:

1. Criminal; generally done concurrently with the local law enforcement agency and the local district attorney's office.

2. Civil issues.

3. Internal Investigation.

There is a thing called the Peace Officers Bill of Rights. Its basically a Catch 22 situation.

Lets say I shoot someone. Does the 5th Amendment apply to me? Yes, kinda. I have the right to non self incrimination. However, if my supervisor asks me what happened, I have to tell them (hence the Catch 22). If not, I'm guilty of insubordination.

Now, is what I tell them useable against me in a criminal investigation? No. Its not. However, it can be used against me in the civil lawsuit and obviously any internal investigation.

That is why I advocate a short, brief statement as to the facts, especially the "I feared for my life," statement. Followed up by the "I would like to consult with an attorney before any further questioning."

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

First off,

Do not pull the trigger unless you are full prepared to go to jail, plain and simple.

Regardless of how justified you are you will be handcuffed, placed under arrest and read your rights and hauled off to jail. Once there expect to be at a minimum photoed and fingerprinted by jail staff.

You will, in all likelihood not be questioned at great length until the crime scene has been thoroughly combed over and the investigators have witness statements in hand, if someone, the person you were defending has gone to the ER the Police may wait to talk to them after medical treatment has been administered and by this time it will be very clear to the police if you were justified or not.

Then the questioning will begin.

During this whole ordeal just remain calm and polite and you will probably be treated likewise. Cops have no problems with good guys defending themselves or there families if you fall into this category just go with the flow and in the end you’ll walk out the front door of the Police Station.

As far as dealing with arriving units to a shooting scene while you have the perp at gunpoint, do exactly as you are told, move slowly but deliberately and keep your hands in plain view of the Police at all times even if the suspect runs after you drop your weapon.

Stupidity will get you killed.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Twenty years as a NYC Court Officer and one with many friends who are criminal defense attys, all I can add is this...

1) Do not have your gun out and visible if possible. Take cover ASAP and either holster your weapon or conceal it in your pocket/waistband.
Do as the responding police officers demand. Even if you feel they are being overly zealous.

2) Keep your mouth shut in a respectful manner. Even if you were totally legit, you may say something that can lead to legal grief down the line.
If the police insist on questioning you after you have informed them that you wish to invoke your RIGHT to remain silent ( As their PBA delegates would advise them if they were in a similar situation) then try this..
Inform them that you are having severe chest pains, trouble breathing and that it feels like a herd of elephants are stampeding on your chest. Ask them to take you to a hospital ASAP because you feel that their questioning is causing you to have a heart attack.
Once their have the docs check you out and call a lawyer.

3) If this does not work, then do not be afraid to be arrested. A few hours awaiting arrignment is better than falling for the common ploy of, "
Come on fella. Only the crooks need lawyers. Just tell us the truth and we will let you go..."
And if they do arrest you they will inform you of your rights, one of which is to remain silent.
By all means do so.

 

[FPrice]

I am not an LEO, nor do I play one on TV or the internet. I am however a firearms owner and am very interested in this sort of discussion in the event I ever have to use a firearm in a defensive role.

Pax started an interesting thread which addresses your second question after a fashion.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40385

In a nutshell, I believe that the good guy was arrested and went to jail because he clammed up while the bad guy's wife loudly and hysterically accused him of murdering her husband. Faced with one side of the story and a dead man I think the police had no choice but to arrest the good guy simply because they had no other version of events to consider.

If i am ever unfortunate enough to be in this situation I am going to try my best to calm down, state the very basics of the situation, "Officer, this man attacked me with that item and caused me to fear for my life. I felt that I had no choice but to try to defend myself." And as someone said I will be polite and honest but try to keep any other statements to a minimum.

 

[tetleyb]

I'd like to add somemore points to this discussion. First, the people who say they would make a short, concise statement to the police, then ask for an attorney are doing the right thing.

I have been to numerous of these types of situations (home owners defending themselves, store owners defending themselves, etc). I have NEVER seen one where I or another police officer tried to "railroad" any law abiding citizen. In fact, we go out of our to assist you in what to say and how to say it. Now, I'm not saying it hasn't happened, I'm just saying I've never seen it happen.

Second, getting around the criminal aspect of shooting someone is, actually, quite easy. Case law basically states "its in the mind of the shooter." How YOU perceive a threat, etc. The actual standard for criminal offense is quite low.

Having said that, understand IF you get out of the criminal case, there is the probable wrongful death civil suit. That is where things get real tricky. Imagine filling out a financial questionaire, as thick as a phone book, asking how much your wife's wedding ring is worth, your kids college education money, etc.

In civil court, rules/laws of evidence are different, the standard of proof is different (perponderance of the evidence vs beyond a reasonable doubt), etc, etc.

When I teach civilians firearms training, these ISSUES ALWAYS come up. When can I shoot someone in my house? I have a CCW, a guy is robbing the store, should I shoot him? Etc, etc, etc. I tell them: Take some of that money you spend on guns, ammo, courses, etc and set up an appointment with a good criminal defense attorney. Make a list of questions and get them answered.

Understand my explanations here are short, because of the forum. It is a subject which could take hours to fully go over. I hope this helps some people.

 

[Werewolf]

tetleyb said:

Second, getting around the criminal aspect of shooting someone is, actually, quite easy. Case law basically states "its in the mind of the shooter." How YOU perceive a threat, etc. The actual standard for criminal offense is quite low.

Unless you're lucky enough to live in a state like Oklahoma or Colorado where there are laws that make you immune from civil liability in cases where you kill in defense of your life or another's.

 

[Dorian]

Unless you're lucky enough to live in a state like Oklahoma or Colorado where there are laws that make you immune from civil liability in cases where you kill in defense of your life or another's.

Wasn't there something like this being presented US wide?

 

[Shootin' Buddy]

What criteria does a police officer use to determine if they are going to arrest you there on the spot? Who actually makes the decision about whether or not you are arrested?
Don

 

[tetleyb]

Shootin Buddy,

Its a simple doctrine: Probable Cause. Do I, as a police officer, have probable cause to think you committed said crime. Please everyone remember, probable cause is a MUCH lower standard then BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. I arrest someone on probable cause. The district attorney has to prove said arrest "beyond a reasonable doubt." A MUCH higher standard.

Probable cause is a slippery slope of criminal law. It changes more then you change your socks. Almost weekly a court makes a ruling which changes the standard of what probable cause is. However, I liken it to the following: Would the average person arrest someone based upon the information you know? If its yes, then I say you can be arrested. If its no, I say you cannot. Again, this is VERY general, because of the forum space, etc.

In my agency, it is the responsibility of the investigating officer to make such a decision. At the sametime, said officer is not going to make an arrest, such as this, without consultation with many other persons.

If you have never, I would suggest to people they take some courses in laws of evidence, criminal law, the criminal justice system and the like. These types of classes can teach you alot. On the other hand, they can also give you bad information.

 

[Erik]

I'm a LEO.

1. I would ideally like everyone present to do exactly what I say, and only what I say. Not only would I like it, I will require it. Maybe I'll know who the good guy is, maybe not. Maybe I will be able to readily tell who the good guy is, maybe not. Until I can, everyine gets treated the same. Even after I can, noncompliance can get you in trouble, depending on how it manifests itself.

2. I learned to expect any and everything from someone involved in a violent altercation. I'd prefer, and recommend, a brief, clear, and concise explanation of the facts, and only the facts. After that I advise invoking your right to representation. Some advocate skipping to the invokation. Fine, just understand that at that point you are displaying characteristics similar to the crooks I typically encounter. The good guys like to talk- it is human nature. Bad guys don't. Either approach all well within your rights, of course... Just understand that it might take a bit to sort things out without your immediate input.

 

[peteinct]

Hi, I was going to avoid this whole thread but Erik pushed me over the top.

I am not a policeman or lawyer.

I thought a D.A. would make the decision to prosecute or not. So wether or not you are charged could depend on other things than the "facts" of the incident. D.A.s can be very political. The job is used many times as a step towards higher office, Rudy Guliani(spelling) is a good example. So if it is close to an election and a prosecutor needs to make an example out of you, you're toast. It could be for any reason, to be "tough on crime" or there could be racial elements or if you shot someone connected in the power group in the area ie. the Mayor's son.
I but many police could tell you about being raked over the coals for someone's political gain. So I personally would try to be very quiet untill I had an attourney by my side.

"just understand you are displaying the characteristics similiar to the crooks I encounter".
Wear a mask to hide their identity.
Break into a house in the middle of the night to terrorize the inhabitants.
Cop or Crook?

And finally does any one here really believe that "good guys" haven't been hosed over sometimes by the courts?

pete