Police arrive after apprehension...

[nswtex]

A while back someone had a thread about how to lay your ccw down when told to "drop it" by a LEO. This got me thinking about this hypothetical situation.

I hear a burglar downstairs, grab the piece in the nightstand and take a peek. Catch a guy red handed and he is too scared to make a run for it and is not interested in a physical confrontation and promptly surrenders to me. By this time the wife has the kids in our bedroom and calls the police. Where I live there are only 3 officers on duty at night which requires them to be pretty spread out at times. One arrives to find me in my living room covering the BG (good or bad idea?)

Sorry about the long setup but my question is this; At what point do I secure the weapon, do I wait for the officer to secure said BG or do I immediatly secure the gun upon LEO's arrival. My concern at this point is still for my family. If this guy wigs out on the officer in my living room I want to have options. Lord willing I will never need to make this decision but what are your opinions.

 

[Car Knocker]

Follow the officer's instructions.

 

[nswtex]

That being said, what happens when this guy flips out in my home where he could still be a threat to my family.

 

[Low-Sci]

First and foremost I think is ensuring the safety of your family. If he surrenders to you, odds are good he's all done making trouble. But still, I would keep him covered until the cops get there. I would also make a second call to the cops and make sure they understood the present situation: that they would be entering a house where the owner was covering the intruder with a gun and waiting for the police. This would at least prepare the officers for what they would deal with.

Once the police arrive, I think the best course of action is to have your family vacate to the front yard or wherever the squad cars are. They'll be safe there, and that takes your primary concern out of the equation. After that, listen to the officer.

 

[Jeff White]

I work in a rural area and it's not uncommon to take custody of a a trespasser or other undersirable from a person holding him at gunpoint.

Make sure you tell the dispatcher that you are holding the BG at gunpoint. A complete description of yourself to include what you're wearing and the BG. Send the family out of the house before the police get there. They can verify for the officer that the call is as reported.

Folow all instructions the dispatcher and officer give you exactly. Understand that if the officers are responding to an alarm and have had no contact with you before arrival that you will most likely be treated as the suspect until identities are sorted out once the situation is secure.

I usually turn on my overhead lights when I arrive at a call like that to make sure the homeowner and BG know it's the police. I then announce verbally who I am before enter. If I know the homeowner to be particularly nervous or I suspect he is I tell him to put his gun down before I enter.

Jeff

 

[BigO01]

Well you could keep two sets of plastic ties looped together and instruct him to lie down face first , facing away from you hands behind his back , walk up and step on his neck with all your weight and keep your gun on him and have the wife put on the ties . Slip the first set all the way up to his elbows and pull them good and tight and then the second on his wrists then backaway keeping you gun handy until the cops get there .

 

[Jeff White]

NO!

Do not ever under any circumstances attempt to restrain anyone. You cannot I repeat cannot place anyone into flexcuffs, cable ties or handcuffs with one hand while covering him with a handgun. In 3 seconds the situation could be reversed and he could be shooting you with your own weapon. Handcuffing is one of the most dangerous things police officers do. More nice calm, compliant arrests got to crap when the iron hits the wrist then at any other time.

You might as well shoot him if you're going to place all your weight on his neck. At that point you're using deadly force. If you've watched Cops or some other reality police show and seen an officer place his knee on a suspects neck, you shoul knw that only enough pressure is applied to control the suspect.

Jeff

 

[BigO01]

Uh Jeff you missed this "and have the wife put on the ties ."

I stand corrected on how much weight to apply though thank you .

Perhaps placing you foot between his shoulder blades would be a better idea , I would THINK this wouldn't be deadly force but would still keep him on the ground .

It sounds like Jeff may be a LEO and would know best here though .

 

[Jeff White]

Are you willing to risk your wife's life in a situation like that? I've seen it take 4 officers to cuff a combative subject.

It's not worth it, the danger is too great. I work alone in a rural area where backup can be 10-30 minutes away. If I am holding someone at gunpoint I might just do that till backup arrives. The BG is not worth getting hurt over.

Prone the suspect out so he's facing away from you. Then he can't see if you've still got him covered or not. He'll never know that you holstered your weapon just as the police arrived.

Jeff

 

[Maggoty]

If your absoulutely set on restraining him, and your afraid to break his neck, another good place is the shoulder of the arm not yet being cuffed. apply wieght there and you can take any leverage that arm has away.

But as the officer says, your so much safer keeping away from him. so what if he runs the issue here is your safety.

 

[sacp81170a]

+100 on the NO!

I've seen otherwise compliant subjects get more than a little nuts when they realize they're going to be restrained. Putting yourself in physical contact with a known BG is a bad, bad idea. Cops do it because we have to, not because we like it.

 

[NukemJim]

Just a suggestion, unless you have actually handcuffed/ziptie/chain/physicly restrain an adult who trying to fight/kill you I would strongly suggest you do what the LEOs on this board suggest.

NukemJim
PS No I am not a LEO, but I've worked in ER and Psych units and had to "restrain" them. That is as close as I want to get. Could not imagine trying to do it by myself. NO WAY!

 

[CraigJS]

Amazing, Post 1 poses a question, a "what if".... Posts 2 through 5 deal with the "what if", AS ASKED.. Posts 6 through 12 change into answers for a question unasked! Restrainning, Flex-cuffs, etc.
Then there's this post, that answers NOTHING:banghead:

 

[ConserVet]

Tell the dispatcher you have the burglar/assaulter/turd at gunpoint and to advise the responding officer. Its not all that unusual, and the dispatcher may have further instructions for you.

 

[nswtex]

I like the idea of sending the family out to the street to meet the officer but I would prefer to know that he has arrived or is close, lights or sirens, in case there is another threat outside just waiting to figure out how to free his buddy/potential stool pigeon. I also like the idea of having the BG face away from me and keeping my distance, then return gun to holster as officer arrives unbeknownst to BG.

 

[Smurfslayer]

It makes sense when you think about it.

In the situation you described, your attention is on the front sight superimposed on the apprehended criminal. Once you take your attention off them things can go south very, very quickly. This is a good situation for a tactical cell phone neener: I couldn't resist) with a "speaker" setting that you leave connected to 911. This would absolutely not be the time to let testosterone or estrogen get in the way of common sense -> When the law arrives, DO what they tell you to while they secure the situation.

I thing restraining or attempting to do so is a move away from goodness. Let's say you have a family member attempt to do it. What are you going to do when the BG puts your family member in a headlock? Hey, if you want something for the family to do, have them use that tactical phone to take a picture of BG. Then who cares if they flee, show the police when they arrive and let them do their job.

 

[glummer]

Holding the BG

Has anyone got solid info on the practice of holding the BG at gunpoint? I mean, as far as I know, you can't shoot him if he runs (or just walks) unless he's armed, or fleeing an already violent crime. What do you do if you tell him to "prone", and he laughs in your face and heads for the door?

 

[Gordon Fink]

Anywhere but Texas, you let him go. However, the original post assumes a surrender.

~G. Fink

 

[Malapai]

I gotta agree with Jeff on this one. Keepeing the BG unrestrained and at gunpoint keeps valuable space between you and him. This gives you valuable time to asess him and his demeanor. Also if he were to go off and rush you you have that little bit of time to make that final decision.

If he will not follow your commands then you still have that valuable space between you and him, you should maintain that space. If he runs, let him run. You are there to protect your family and you just succeeded admirably. He is now LEO problem. they do this for a living. I would hate to have to kill someone in front of my family but would do it in a heartbeat if the time came.

 

[Optical Serenity]

I've responded to situations like this, and people held them at gunpoint...it works best.

Don't restrain the guy. People already fight with you when they know you are a cop and will put them in jail.. People will fight (or have a tendency to fight) someone who they feel may not have the authority to restrain them.

Remember, your safety is number 1. Cuffing someone who does not want to get cuffed is nearly impossible. Well, not impossible but be prepared for a crazy fight.

 

[walking arsenal]

You might as well shoot him if you're going to place all your weight on his neck.

Ok, i'll do that then, he's in MY house makes no nevermind to me. I do agree with jeff on the restraining thing though. Thump him in the head with the butt of your gun. It's much easier to restrain them when they are uncocious, a lot less argumentative too.

Are you willing to risk your wife's life in a situation like that?

I hate to blow holes in your plan but sending the wife and kids out into an unsecure location to wait for the police is just as dangerous. Let them stay in the safe room. Sending them out there is just asking for someone to get thumped by the unknown acomplice.

 

[JohnKSa]

Knocking a person unconscious without killing them is pretty hard.

Let's say you thump the guy with your gun and he dies. What are you gonna say when they ask you why you hit him with the gun instead of shooting him with your gun?

See, if you had shot him and the circumstances warranted deadly force, you'd be home free.

But if you thump him on the head when you could have shot him, it implies that you didn't feel that the situation warranted deadly force.

So, now you've got a dead guy on your hands and your own actions seem to say that you didn't feel like deadly force was warranted. That's not a good situation.

 

[larry_minn]

my (plan) has been to contact LEO via cell (if possible) and give my description/situation under control suspect on ground at gunpoint.
When Police show up I HOPE to have BG facing away with arms outstretched (and firm warning if arms go in toward his body I will KNOW he is reaching for a weapon) as there is no way I can safely search him. So I will shoot. (to protect myself)
LEO show up and gun goes back in holster before they enter. SUspect is facing away and has no knowledge my gun is holstered. It is still under my control but my hands are empty/

 

[Malapai]

my (plan) has been to contact LEO via cell (if possible) and give my description/situation under control suspect on ground at gunpoint.
When Police show up I HOPE to have BG facing away with arms outstretched (and firm warning if arms go in toward his body I will KNOW he is reaching for a weapon) as there is no way I can safely search him. So I will shoot. (to protect myself)
LEO show up and gun goes back in holster before they enter. SUspect is facing away and has no knowledge my gun is holstered. It is still under my control but my hands are empty/

sounds like it would work in a perfect world. The plan sounds good, just be ready for plan B. Also one thing to think about is that quiet time you both will share while the clock ticks away waiting or the law. Im sure he will be pondering his next move during that time, whether it be to conceed or try to flee.

 

[PackinPastor]

the funny thing about the BG not knowing that the gun is holstered is that the LEO is going to want verbal acknowledgement that your weapon has been secured - as in AWAY from YOU. Like Jeff said, the LEO will treat you as a suspect until otherwise identified. So, that being said, if the officer enters your home, you'll probably have told him that you have placed the weapon on the ground and have backed away or placed the officer in the safest situation possible.

I know this post was about a BG that surrenders, but something that you may want to take into consideration is the undesirable event that you would need to fire upon the BG: when LE does end up responding, many not so great things will happen - you will be arrested, go to jail until bail is set and made most likely, have your firearm taken in as evidence, be questioned, face criminal lawsuits from the local jurisdiction and quite possibly civil lawsuits from the dead guys mommy or some other upset individual. Regardless of whether you were justified or not, these things are very likely and damaging to an honest, law abiding citizen.

As much fun as it may be and destressing as it may be to whack the crap outta the dude, treating the BG with the utmost respect is definitly the wisest thing to do. Call him Sir or Ma'am, respond sharp and with command, but be polite, too. Give him/her NOTHING to use against you where he can say you were rough with him. We all know that stupid story of the poor sap that had his house broke into while he was away on vacation and the BG sued because he hurt himself breaking in to the house. Whether he really won or not, the point is that people can sue for anything and dumb people sue and lose. Just cause you can win a fight (in court or on the street) doesn't mean the periphial consequences are worth it.

All that being said, I'd probably shoot the BG.

who knows really, i mean you really just gotta be in the situation to know what you'd do, anyhow.