After Katrina, stories of gun battles

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rwc

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Food for thought.

After Katrina, stories of gun battles

By Andy Sullivan Wed Sep 21,11:40 AM ET
NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - After the storm came the carjackers and burglars. Then came the gun battles and the chemical explosions that shook the restored Victorians in New Orleans' Algiers Point neighborhood.

"The hurricane was a breeze compared with the crime and terror that followed," said Gregg Harris, a psychotherapist who lives in the battered area.

As life returned to this close-knit neighborhood three weeks after Hurricane Katrina, residents said they hoped their experience could convince political leaders to get serious about the violence and poor services that have long been an unfortunate hallmark of their city.

"I think now it's a wake-up call," Harris said.

After the storm, the neighborhood association had to act as law enforcement and emergency response unit as city services collapsed and the police force was unable to protect them.

Citizens organized armed patrols and checked on the elderly. They slept on their porches with loaded shotguns and bolted awake when intruders stumbled on the aluminum cans they had scattered on the sidewalk.

Gunshots rang out for days, sometimes terrifyingly close.

For Harris, the first warning sign came on Tuesday, the day after the storm, when two young men hit his partner, Vinnie Pervel, over the head and drove off with his Ford van.

"A police car drove up behind me and saw it happening but he didn't do anything," said Pervel, who heads the 1,500-household neighborhood association.

Then residents heard that police vehicles were being carjacked and looters were taking guns and ammunition from nearby stores.

"We thought, 'Perhaps this is going to get really ugly,"' said Gareth Stubbs, a marine surveyor who lives across Pelican Street from Harris and Pervel.

A Texas woman who runs a Web site called Polimom.com served as a link between those who stayed and those who had left. With her help, they stockpiled an arsenal of shotguns, derringer pistols and an old AK-47.

They were put to use the next day.

"Some looters came up and pulled a gun on the wrong group of men," said Harris, who said he did not fire a gun himself and declined to say who else was involved in the battle.

"Two men were shot right there," Harris said, pointing down the street as he watered his rose bushes. "One was shot in the back, the other in the leg, and the third I was told made it a block and a half before he died in the street. I did not go down to see the body."

The next day a nearby stockpile of chemicals exploded, shaking the houses and sending a fireball 300 feet into the sky. The fire burned for another three days, Harris said.

"For five days we didn't need FEMA, the Red Cross or the National Guard," Harris said. "The neighborhood took care of itself."
 
Interesting story. I wonder how much of it is actually true? I've read the stories from the Superdome are largely unsubstantiated.

It gets me the press always uses the term arsenal. An arsenal is where the weapons are manufactured, not stockpiled. An armory is where they are stored.
 
I think a lot of these stories about citizens defending themselves are true. It is noteworthy, that in none of the stories, were the armed citizens really members of the 'gun culture'. I saw no use of Wilson Combat shotguns, tricked out AR15 M4 Clones, 7.62x51 Nato MBR or the like. Most of the stories are about average folks with average hunting weapons.
 
I would be willing to bet that those shotguns weren't your typical hunting shotguns. Most likely they were Ruger Red Labels or some other type of sporting shotgun. Not to say that they aren't any less deadly than a SPAS 12 or the like. :) Funny how that story didn't make it into the mainstream media....

Wheeler
 
I wonder what the result of political backlash is going to be after the dust settles. It seems in most of these stories from this disaster, the locals found they had to take care of their own neighborhood security and individual self defense. The police where either not present, or were occupied with other problems (very much like during the Rodney King riots). Yet, usually after situations like this, the knee jerk reaction by the government is to create new legislation aimed at disarming civilians. In fact that happened even during the crisis with police ordered to forcibly disarm civilians.

So will LA, and especially the NO area, start getting more anti-gun legislation or will the people fight proposed anti-gun legislation, having learned a lesson in the necessity of having the ability to defend one's self and family?
 
Call it my natural suspicion, but I've always questioned the story about the 400 or 500 New Orleans officers that supposedly "ran away" from their jobs and just left town.

I've been told that people who monitored the police scanners in the aftermath frequently heard police officers reporting themselves "under fire" and "officer down".

Now this story is reporting that police were being carjacked.

I'm beginning to wonder if there aren't a lot of police who were shot in NO and no one in the city, state, or federal govs is willing to admit to it. Thus the "they left town" story.

I just find it hard to believe that an officer facing a carjacker would just GIVE UP their car while still being alive. It also might explain why the images we've seen from more recent police photos show them going in with guns first.
 
An officer already bleeding from a rifle wound isnt going to give much of a fight to carjackers.

That would suck royally if 500 cops got killed trying to preserve order in the city.
 
I wonder what the result of political backlash is going to be after the dust settles.
What about the legal backlash? Sooner or later the police are going to start investigating homicides using bullet riddled bodies (and the recovered bullets) as evidence. Some of the shooters might eventually wish they had used a shotgun instead of a rifle or handgun...
 
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Because ghetto rats are totally going to line up so the cops can ballistically fingerprint their guns and clear them of a crime. Because they are otherwise law abiding citizens who place great importance on their standing in society. And it isnt a serious crime for them to own guns in the first place. Right.

The NOPD had a 15 year backlog of unsolved murders. Unless some sort of deus ex machina happens, the hurricane fatalities are going to be added to the pile.

My main worry is that ordinary citizens will be charged with crimes for shooting looters, for lack of anyone easier to go after. Hopefully the local NOLA residents will take a cue from bernie goetz on that subject and keep their traps shut.
 
Because ghetto rats are totally going to line up so the cops can ballistically fingerprint their guns
People shooting their mouths off for reporters will give the cops a great hint on where to start looking...
My main worry is that ordinary citizens will be charged with crimes for shooting looters
My point exactly.
 
cops

I'm in DFW and they interviewed two NO cops who are brothers that just quit, they said they couldn't take it anymore.
Don't know how it was for them but I think if the cops quit it just leaves the city to the criminals since all the people who are prepared (most of the people on these forums) were smart enough to get the heck out before it came to the shooting.
 
I live in DFW and also saw the news story about the 2 brother cops who deserted days before Katrina hit. I hope neither of them ever gets another job in law enforcement.
 
Police Superintendent Eddie Compass confirmed the mass desertions on 60 Minutes.

That's why I'm naturally suspicious. I don't believe everything that I'm told...especially when I can see that the person talking might have lots of other reasons for concealing the truth.

I think that in this case though, there has been a serious lack of "on the ground" information coming from New Orleans. As I said before, if you had listened to some of the scanner traffic, you would have heard MANY reports coming in regarding shots fired, officers under fire, and officers injured by gunfire. I'd say at least 25 to 30 incidents that I know of, and I don't claim to have followed the traffic all that closely. Even the article from this thread speaks about the large amount of gunfire...and carjacked police vehicles. Surprisingly enough though, other than one or two cases of gunfire that took place near the reporters at the French Quarter (the two suspects firing the AK-47 at the police station specifically), there has been remarkably little discussion about shooting incidents in the mainstream media. Although we know from web traffic and some interviews with survivors on the news that gunfire was happening quite a lot. As well as gun confiscations for a brief period of time (perhaps still going on...who knows?) and little old ladies being forcibly removed when they are holding a gun in hand in their own house. Would her story have ever been known if a reporter didn't happen to be with the police that day? I doubt it.

I think that most everyone would agree that it is in the interest of law enforcement to present the image that they are unbeatable to the public. I understand why the police encourage this image. "We always get our man." "Crime doesn't pay." "Do the crime, do the time." "The Looooong Arm of the Law."
You....if you were a police captain....DON'T want to send the message that:
"Police die like other people."
"We can be surprised in the dark and shot just like everyone else."
"Do the crime during a time when the electricity is off and our radios aren't working, and you stand a good chance of getting away."
"Friendly fire can and does happen with the police."

That's why I would find it very easy to believe that a city would cover up the true extent of officers that might have been injured or killed after the disaster. Because it would undermine not only the future safety of local officers, but of law enforcement nation wide. If everyone starts hearing stories about people who fought the Law and won, then there are going to be a lot more people who think they can. (Never a good idea...New Orleans was anarchy...a special case.)



Edited:

Don't get me wrong though...I DO believe that SOME of the officers probably did desert their posts and ran. Probably the majority of the ones listed as missing did. I just also happen to believe that many officers probably DIDN'T leave their posts...and may have died because of it. Either killed by the flood waters, or killed by looters or even friendly fire afterward.

It would be a real disservice to the officers if the city knew this to be the case, but wanted to cover it up for political reasons.
 
Police Superintendent Eddie Compass confirmed the mass desertions on 60 Minutes.

This is the same man who, in his answer to the NRA's lawsuit, states that he never ordered police to confiscate firearms.


He's a proven liar. That doesn't mean that he's lying in the quoted statement. It just means that the fact that he is known to lie when it's to his political advantage should be taken into account when considering the relialibily of the source.
 
It gets me the press always uses the term arsenal. An arsenal is where the weapons are manufactured, not stockpiled. An armory is where they are stored.

From m-w.com:

Main Entry: ar·se·nal
Pronunciation: 'ärs-n&l, 'är-s&n-&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian arsenale, ultimately from Arabic dAr sinA'ah house of manufacture
1 a : an establishment for the manufacture or storage of arms and military equipment b : a collection of weapons
2 : STORE, REPERTORY <the team's arsenal of veteran players>

As noted, the root of the word is "ultimately from ... house of manufacture," but it is commonly used and accepted to mean a collection of weapons. I know this has been hashed and rehashed here before. I'll let it go after this post.

-twency
 
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