After the Home Defense Shooting
- Thread starter Simple Shooter
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OP
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Simple Shooter
Member
Funny you bring that one up. Of all the points to consider in selecting a home defense firearm, that is the only one I have not thought about. I suppose one could use an old Raven .25, a cheap single shot 20 gage, or a Glock. You know, something you would not miss if you don't get it back.*
And at least it was not as tiresome as the "stopping power" debates.
*For all the Glock fans who are currently pounding out a response in a seething rage, heading out to the back yard to hang me in effigy, or fashioning little Simple Shooter dolls to stab with pins, I was kidding. Take a deep breath. Drink a glass of cool water. Breath in through your mouth and slowly exhale through your nose. Man, you guys are easy!
N555
Member
Clearly it is lost on me. The rest is irrelevant.
Enlighten me.
Actually, that's one of the reasons I like Glocks. If you get 20 G19's they will all be very similar in trigger pull and accuracy, but if you get 20 1911's there is a good chance that trigger pulls and barrel fit will vary a lot.
OP
OP
Simple Shooter
Member
I personally don’t like Glocks, preferring to carry a Sig P229SAO or Colt Defender 1911.
That said, when I see the passion Glock owners have for their chosen firearms it is easy to see Glocks must be good guns for those who like them.
That said, when I see the passion Glock owners have for their chosen firearms it is easy to see Glocks must be good guns for those who like them.
Glock sells a consistent, reliable product. Someone called them the Honda Civic of guns. I agree. Perfect for the average guy in the average situation.
If that's true, 1911s are the Harley Davidson of guns.
As in always burning oil and needing special attention to keep running?
You're not wrong. I've just never made THAT leap before. I love my 1911 for weekends and summer afternoons, but my Glock is the daily commuter that always, always works.
You nailed it.
OP
OP
Simple Shooter
Member
Ouch! You wound me, sir! (But I suppose I had it coming...)
I keep a shotgun nearby, for home defense, in the area where I spend most of my sleeping and waking hours. My carry handgun will be there, too, but the long gun is going to be the “primary” weapon, of choice, whenever practicable. I worked as an LEO, for 33+ years, and have seen the aftermath of many suicides and other shootings. Notably, my wife worked as a forensic investigator for the Medical Examiner, investigating and photographing actual death scene, for 21 years. Blood spatter evidence is a science, and tells the story how far, and how fast, a decedent moved, after being shot. The usual distance that a decedent moved, after being well-hit by a full load from a shot shell was, well, zero feet. Shotguns generally stop people.
My wife likes that I keep a shotgun handy, and she has her own shotgun. She likes Remington 870 pump guns. I like the Benelli M2, that I used as a police duty shotgun, and I may add a Benelli M4. Shotguns generally stop people.
Another reasons I prefer the shotgun for home/area defense, is familiarity. No other long gun comes close. This includes manipulation of the safety. I have long used, and still use, shoguns with cross-bolt safety buttons, at the rear of the trigger guard. The AR/M4 safety/selector is, comparatively, much. less-familiar, and works in a way that causes some cognitive dissonance, due to other safety systems I was indoctrinated to use.
My wife likes that I keep a shotgun handy, and she has her own shotgun. She likes Remington 870 pump guns. I like the Benelli M2, that I used as a police duty shotgun, and I may add a Benelli M4. Shotguns generally stop people.
Another reasons I prefer the shotgun for home/area defense, is familiarity. No other long gun comes close. This includes manipulation of the safety. I have long used, and still use, shoguns with cross-bolt safety buttons, at the rear of the trigger guard. The AR/M4 safety/selector is, comparatively, much. less-familiar, and works in a way that causes some cognitive dissonance, due to other safety systems I was indoctrinated to use.
lemaymiami
Member
Well said Rexster... In short "you're playing my song". A basic 12ga riot gun is a close quarters (under 15 meters) one shot fight ender with ordinary 2 3//4" 00buck rounds.....
More importantly, in my experience on the street hardly any armed offender was ever willing to gamble when they were facing one. In short over many years, most always bringing that shotgun on hot calls, I only had to use it on one occasion... Can't remember how many times I was pointing a handgun at a bad guy - and got totally ignored...
More importantly, in my experience on the street hardly any armed offender was ever willing to gamble when they were facing one. In short over many years, most always bringing that shotgun on hot calls, I only had to use it on one occasion... Can't remember how many times I was pointing a handgun at a bad guy - and got totally ignored...
OP
OP
Simple Shooter
Member
My experience, as well. I never counted on the mere presence of a shotgun ending a confrontation, but was always happy when it did.
OP
OP
Simple Shooter
Member
This is the most undeniable statement I have seen in a while. (Though someone will probably debate it. This is a gun forum, after all.)
Effectiveness and familiarity are excellent factors in choosing a home defense weapon.
lemaymiami
Member
Simple shooter... Amen...
My first experience with just how intimidating a shotgun is at close quarters was the very first armed robbery arrest I was involved in... Just a rookie, green as grass, 1974, finally allowed out on my own... the vehicle used in the robbery of a convenience store - was right in front of me... Followed for a few blocks as other officers came racing up and when we stopped them I was quick out, on my feet shotgun in shooting position, right behind them... Three intoxicated young men in the car - the front passenger went to bail out and run but when he saw that shotgun he froze on the spot, eyes shut tight and his hands so tight on that upper door frame that we had to pry them apart... to place him in custody... No these weren't hardcore robbers -they were drunken idiots that didn't get $50 from that scared clerk... They were so incompetent that the rear seat passenger in the "getaway car" fired a shot through the front seat between the other two idiots and into the dashboard - as they fled the scene...
That was just a sample of behavior I would see in following years.... until one day.. things changed... Overall, though, any time armed suspects give up and are taken into custody without a shot fired (or any rough stuff at all....) was a win I was very grateful for - all those years ago. One other point that bears mentioning... My first few years on the street, although I relied on the shotgun on hot calls - I wasn't very knowledgeable or skilled in the finer points about that weapon. I didn't seek out and learn everything I could about what was possible with it until - after I'd fired the only shot I ever fired out on the street. After that my perspective changed and I got really serious about just how to use that weapon for max effect. To this day I'm very glad I never had to fire a second shot for my remaining years as a cop..
My first experience with just how intimidating a shotgun is at close quarters was the very first armed robbery arrest I was involved in... Just a rookie, green as grass, 1974, finally allowed out on my own... the vehicle used in the robbery of a convenience store - was right in front of me... Followed for a few blocks as other officers came racing up and when we stopped them I was quick out, on my feet shotgun in shooting position, right behind them... Three intoxicated young men in the car - the front passenger went to bail out and run but when he saw that shotgun he froze on the spot, eyes shut tight and his hands so tight on that upper door frame that we had to pry them apart... to place him in custody... No these weren't hardcore robbers -they were drunken idiots that didn't get $50 from that scared clerk... They were so incompetent that the rear seat passenger in the "getaway car" fired a shot through the front seat between the other two idiots and into the dashboard - as they fled the scene...
That was just a sample of behavior I would see in following years.... until one day.. things changed... Overall, though, any time armed suspects give up and are taken into custody without a shot fired (or any rough stuff at all....) was a win I was very grateful for - all those years ago. One other point that bears mentioning... My first few years on the street, although I relied on the shotgun on hot calls - I wasn't very knowledgeable or skilled in the finer points about that weapon. I didn't seek out and learn everything I could about what was possible with it until - after I'd fired the only shot I ever fired out on the street. After that my perspective changed and I got really serious about just how to use that weapon for max effect. To this day I'm very glad I never had to fire a second shot for my remaining years as a cop..
OP
OP
Simple Shooter
Member
That seemed to be quite a universal concept within my scope of experience. There was very basic shotgun training provided in the academy, then even more basic yearly qualification.
When I took over training at my department, it became very apparent that most of the officers could barely figure out how to load the shotguns, much less use them. The very expensive and capable Benelli M1 Super 90's rarely left the cruisers. I attended some advanced (at least for the time period) shotgun combat classes and brought what I learned back to the department in the form of monthly range training. Shotguns began leaving the cruisers more often. Several officers reported more immediate compliance when a shotgun was present, resulting in less likelihood of death or injury to either party. This is anecdotal and far from scientific. But if it prevented even one shooting, I'll take it.
My requests for patrol rifles and training on such fell on deaf ears (pre-9/11 days). But the chief did understand the need for something to reach out farther and with better accuracy than 00 in certain situations. I received permission to obtain slugs and trained the department with them. That gave them a good tool until they eventually obtained patrol rifles after I had left the department.
I do find it interesting that several young, current LEO's I know have a preference for the shotgun over AR's and are seeking more advanced training with them.
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lemaymiami
Member
This has been said before - but most have a belief that a shotgun insures a hit downrange - when that isn't the case at all. You must aim carefully to insure a hit - and everything with any shotgun is absolutely dependent on distance from that shotgun to the target.
Here's a good primer for anyone considering one. We found that with an improved cylinder choke any riot gun (basic 18" barrel, four shot pump shotgun) you could expect the pattern to spread one inch per meter from the muzzle... In other words at 7 meters (21 feet) a seven inch pattern, at 15 meters a 15" pattern... A good center of mass hit at ranges closer than 15 meters meant you could expect to get all nine pellets (.33 cal) from an ordinary 2 3/4", 12ga round on target.. That's why it's a one shot fight ender at close quarters - provided you do your part...
One other point about shotguns... Your weapon really needs to be patterned - with the ammo you're intending to use to be certain of its performance when it's all on the line. Barrel length, choke for that particular barrel, ammunition will all play a part in the actual results downrange. And as always actual range time with that weapon will show great results later if ever needed...
Here's a good primer for anyone considering one. We found that with an improved cylinder choke any riot gun (basic 18" barrel, four shot pump shotgun) you could expect the pattern to spread one inch per meter from the muzzle... In other words at 7 meters (21 feet) a seven inch pattern, at 15 meters a 15" pattern... A good center of mass hit at ranges closer than 15 meters meant you could expect to get all nine pellets (.33 cal) from an ordinary 2 3/4", 12ga round on target.. That's why it's a one shot fight ender at close quarters - provided you do your part...
One other point about shotguns... Your weapon really needs to be patterned - with the ammo you're intending to use to be certain of its performance when it's all on the line. Barrel length, choke for that particular barrel, ammunition will all play a part in the actual results downrange. And as always actual range time with that weapon will show great results later if ever needed...
OP
OP
Simple Shooter
Member
Very good points. The shotgun needs to be patterned with the ammo you plan to use for the specific task at hand and you have to understand the flight ballistics as much as the terminal ballistics. There are plenty of first time shotgun owners out there who believe you just have to point the shotgun in the general direction of the target and you will hit everything in the vicinity. This is just not true at the distances one would be shooting inside a home.
With Federal flight control wad 1145fps 00 in my shotgun the spread is only 1-2" at 30' and 10-12" at 75'. Again, the shotgun is not my go-to for home defense. But if it was, I would have to aim just as carefully as I do my 9mm carbine.
theotherwaldo
Member
My bedroom gun has a primary load of several mini-slugs for hallway ranges.
Buck would not improve performance at likely self-defense range.
Buck would not improve performance at likely self-defense range.
