Hey all I have been googling all my firearm questions for the past year and have found many answers on links to this site but could not find my latest inquiry. I am interested in buying a TC Encore RIFLE frame but am curious if I am old enough (20) to buy. I had an embarrassing predicament a few months back trying to buy an AR 15 lower when the FFL called in and was told I had to be 21 to buy :banghead: (my FFL didn't know this either). So can a 20 year old buy a TC Encore rifle frame without a barrel? Or if I order the frame and go to pick it up can I bring along a barrel for the FFL to slap on quick and then proceed to call it in? Thanks in advance and I look forward to becoming an active member of THR!
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Age to buy a TC Encore Rifle Frame
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newfalguy101
Member
I will have to ask ATF to be certian, but, I believe as the Encore can NOT be fitted with a handgun length ( under 16 inches ) I believe it would be legal for a 20 year old to purchase.
Encores/Pro Hunters have plenty of handgun length barrels that can be equipped. You are required to buy the handgun grip/forend if you put a handgun length barrel on it. Mr. Whitetail himself Larry Weishuhn has a Pro Hunter pistol named after him. So they are interchangeable like ARs are.
hirundo82
Member
Does the frame already have a buttstock? If so it is legally a rifle and can be sold by an FFL to those under 21.
The issue with a stripped lower is that the law says an FFL can only sell a rifle or shotgun to those under 21, and a stripped lower is considered an "other firearm" (note--not a Title II AOW) until it is "designed to be fired from the shoulder" by the addition of a stock, when it becomes a rifle.
The issue with a stripped lower is that the law says an FFL can only sell a rifle or shotgun to those under 21, and a stripped lower is considered an "other firearm" (note--not a Title II AOW) until it is "designed to be fired from the shoulder" by the addition of a stock, when it becomes a rifle.
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hello, i bought a pro hunter 50 muzzle loader and had to do the paper work like it was a handgun , asked why and i was told because you could swap it to a pistol/short barrel so the atf treated it as a handgun sale. if this is true my thought is you have to be 21. check with the atf or call your dealer and ask,but i'm pretty sure this is the case
Galt
Member
That conversion comment...
Definitely call the atf and be sure to get any reply on paper. I'm pretty sure that converting an encore rifle into pistol configuration is technically a felony, like it or not. It may be as simple as buy the handgun stocks and put the short barrel on in the real world, but in NFA land, that makes you a criminal.
I'm sure some expert out there can clear this up.
Definitely call the atf and be sure to get any reply on paper. I'm pretty sure that converting an encore rifle into pistol configuration is technically a felony, like it or not. It may be as simple as buy the handgun stocks and put the short barrel on in the real world, but in NFA land, that makes you a criminal.
I'm sure some expert out there can clear this up.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, the ATF has ruled that once you have assembled a T/C Contender or Encore as a rifle ("designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder" in the text of the National Firearms Act) you CANNOT then make it back into a pistol without first registering it as a Title II Short Barreled Rifle.
T/C fought them over this right up to the Supreme Court in 1992, and won -- but subsequent rulings decided that that case only applied to a very small set of guns sold as a kit with both rifle and pistol parts together.
It is now the judgment of the ATF that, once you've (or anyone, ever, has) installed a buttstock, the gun is a rifle. From that point forward, any configuration of that gun which is less than 26" overall and/or has a barrel shorter than 16" constitutes making an unregistered Title II firearm, and thus is very, VERY illegal. This includes simply reassembling the factory parts if you originally bought it as a handgun.
(The National Firearms Act language defining a Short Barreled Rifle includes the terms, "(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;" 26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(a))
The same applies to the "Mech Tech" kits to convert 1911 and Glock handguns to carbines. Making a rifle from a pistol is legal, but it's a one-way trip.
T/C fought them over this right up to the Supreme Court in 1992, and won -- but subsequent rulings decided that that case only applied to a very small set of guns sold as a kit with both rifle and pistol parts together.
It is now the judgment of the ATF that, once you've (or anyone, ever, has) installed a buttstock, the gun is a rifle. From that point forward, any configuration of that gun which is less than 26" overall and/or has a barrel shorter than 16" constitutes making an unregistered Title II firearm, and thus is very, VERY illegal. This includes simply reassembling the factory parts if you originally bought it as a handgun.
(The National Firearms Act language defining a Short Barreled Rifle includes the terms, "(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;" 26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(a))
The same applies to the "Mech Tech" kits to convert 1911 and Glock handguns to carbines. Making a rifle from a pistol is legal, but it's a one-way trip.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
hello, i bought a pro hunter 50 muzzle loader and had to do the paper work like it was a handgun , asked why and i was told because you could swap it to a pistol/short barrel so the atf treated it as a handgun sale.
This is almost true. What actually happens is that the ATF is skirting the issue pretty finely. If they said it could legally be converted to a handgun then that would conflict with their ruling that it couldn't legally be a handgun (without title II registration).
What they do say is this:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.htmlATF has previously determined that certain muzzle loading models are firearms and subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). All of these guns incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting other barrels designed to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. Therefore, these muzzle loading models do not meet the definition of “antique firearm” as that term is defined in the above-cited § 921(a)(16) and are “firearms” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)
So, they're being sold as "Other Firearms" just like a PGO shotgun, a semi-auto belt-fed M1919, or a stripped receiver. Now why exactly they're not cool with them being sold as a rifle is an interesting question and I don't yet know the answer, but I'm assuming that it has something to do with the fact that they are physically, if not legally, convertible into handguns. Bizarre knot the ATF's rules have tied them in.
Legally they CAN'T be sold as a handgun because they're clearly "designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder" as delivered.
Kristensdaddy
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My understanding is that the receiver/frame is originally sold as a pistol. From there you can add long barrels and stocks.
In either case, when I am switching from 20ga shotgun barrel with a regular stock to a 15 inch .270 pistol barrel, I always remove the stock prior to installing the barrel. I then install the pistol grip. If the 15 inch barrel is attached while the shotgun stock is installed, I have an illegal gun.
Pretty stupid rule but it is the rule, none the less.
Go to www.bellmtcs.com they have a lengthy discussion about this exact subject.
In either case, when I am switching from 20ga shotgun barrel with a regular stock to a 15 inch .270 pistol barrel, I always remove the stock prior to installing the barrel. I then install the pistol grip. If the 15 inch barrel is attached while the shotgun stock is installed, I have an illegal gun.
Pretty stupid rule but it is the rule, none the less.
Go to www.bellmtcs.com they have a lengthy discussion about this exact subject.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
IF you buy it as a pistol, then yes you can add a stock. Unfortunately, once you've done that you cannot legally return it to the pistol configuration, according to the ATF.My understanding is that the receiver/frame is originally sold as a pistol. From there you can add long barrels and stocks.
A barrel of any length can be installed on any pistol without a problem.
Once the gun is a rifle, however, you cannot then drop back down below a 16" barrel, and if you change the stock, you still have to stay above 26" overall length or you've made an illegal unregistered Title II weapon.
Actually, since your firearm has a stock installed, ANY time the gun is put into a configuration that is less than 26" overall and/or has a sub-16" stock, you're committing a federal felony that could carry a penalty of 10 years in jail and fines of up to $250,000.In either case, when I am switching from 20ga shotgun barrel with a regular stock to a 15 inch .270 pistol barrel, I always remove the stock prior to installing the barrel. I then install the pistol grip. If the 15 inch barrel is attached while the shotgun stock is installed, I have an illegal gun.
That stinks, isn't a very reasonable punishment for such a non-criminal offense, but unfortunately it is the ATF's official interpretation of the law of the land.
Reading the actual text of the law (NFA '34), there really isn't any other way they could interpret it. It's just written in such an unfortunate way that it introduces tragic unintended consequences.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, and I'm surprised you missed the big bold title:Go to www.bellmtcs.com they have a lengthy discussion about this exact subject.
"Any way you stack it, it is technically a violation of the 1934 National Firearms Act to convert a TC from rifle configuration to handgun."
He covers the issue very well, but it looks like you're not following his advice, nor the letter of the law.
So, how I am interpreting this discussion is that I can buy it since it has a rifle stock installed. Because if I put a pistol barrel on it then it would be classified as a SBR and if I took off the stock and put on a pistol grip it would be an illegal conversion. Probably going to get ahold of the ATF somehow and verify for sure, thanks for the help guys!
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
The verification you're looking for is whether the dealer has to transfer this as a RIFLE, or as an Other FIREARM.
If a rifle, you just have to be 18. If an Other Firearm, 21 is the rule.
(This has come up with respect to AR-15 receivers. As a stripped lower, it transfers as a FIREARM and you have to be 21. Put a buttstock on it and it transfers as a RIFLE, so you're good at 18.)
If a rifle, you just have to be 18. If an Other Firearm, 21 is the rule.
(This has come up with respect to AR-15 receivers. As a stripped lower, it transfers as a FIREARM and you have to be 21. Put a buttstock on it and it transfers as a RIFLE, so you're good at 18.)
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Kristensdaddy
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From the Supreme Court of the USA website - October1991
"Held: The judgment is affirmed.
924 F. 2d 1041, affirmed. Justice Souter, joined by The Chief Justice and Justice O’Con-
nor, concluded that the Contender and conversion kit when packaged together have not been “made” into a short-barreled rifle for NFA pur- poses. Pp. 509–518."
IANAL - but the Supreme's decided in Favor of Thompson Center. Many pages further into the discussion Judge Souter noted that having the pistol barrel on the rifle stock is an issue. But I don't assemble it in that order. The case centered around whether you were "making a gun" or "assembling a gun" It held that you were assembling parts, not creating a gun. i.e. you were not making a short barrel rifle.
"Held: The judgment is affirmed.
924 F. 2d 1041, affirmed. Justice Souter, joined by The Chief Justice and Justice O’Con-
nor, concluded that the Contender and conversion kit when packaged together have not been “made” into a short-barreled rifle for NFA pur- poses. Pp. 509–518."
IANAL - but the Supreme's decided in Favor of Thompson Center. Many pages further into the discussion Judge Souter noted that having the pistol barrel on the rifle stock is an issue. But I don't assemble it in that order. The case centered around whether you were "making a gun" or "assembling a gun" It held that you were assembling parts, not creating a gun. i.e. you were not making a short barrel rifle.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
IANAL - but the Supreme's decided in Favor of Thompson Center. Many pages further into the discussion Judge Souter noted that having the pistol barrel on the rifle stock is an issue. But I don't assemble it in that order. The case centered around whether you were "making a gun" or "assembling a gun" It held that you were assembling parts, not creating a gun. i.e. you were not making a short barrel rifle.
Yes they did, but do a little more research and you'll see that the ATF took that ruling and applied it ONLY to the T/C KIT GUNS that came with both rifle and pistol parts packaged together.
They have clearly and expressly stated that they do not consider the ruling in US -vs. - T/C to apply at all to T/C Contenders or Encores purchased as either a stand-alone rifle or pistol -- which is almost all of them.
This would make an interesting test case if you'd like to spend the next decade working it back up to the Supreme Court again, but for now the ATF's rule is law.
Irritating, unfair, illogical perhaps -- but it is what it is.
Again, I'll quote the folks at http://www.bellmtcs.com/:
In summary, without getting into all the court decisions and logic behind both positions, it boils down to this:
Thompson Center says you can freely swap handgun and rifle parts back and forth so long as you do not combine a buttstock and a barrel less than 16" or an overall length with a buttstock under the legal 26" limit.
The BATF says you can't!
Who are you going to believe?
I tend to believe the one carrying the big stick with the arrest powers and suggest you do the same!
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
As an aside, there are two slightly different issues at play....But I don't assemble it in that order. ...
1) The final configuration must not meet the definition of a Title II firearm. In this case, you're right in that if you don't assemble the pistol barrel while the buttstock is attached, you aren't constructing a shoulder-fired rifled firearm less than 26" overall and/or with a barrel under 16".
2) You cannon construct a concealable, sub 26" barreled firearm -- or any firearm with less than 16" barrel(s) -- FROM a Title I rifle, and that's where you're running afoul.
It is a lousy quirk of a really badly constructed law (NFA '34). The SBR & SBS portions of the law make almost no sense at all as the final version was (blessedly) passed after having been stripped of its similar restrictions on handguns of all kinds.
The "made from a rifle/shotgun" portion was included as handguns (and any "concealable" firearm) were going to be rendered illegal by dint of exorbitant registration fees ($200 in 1934 would be something like $3,300 today) and they didn't want folks constructing impromptu handguns by cutting down common, unrestricted long guns.
The handgun registration/prohibition was completely removed, but the SBR/SBS/"Made from a..." portion was left in, apparently as an absurd oversight, and has been putting honest folks in jail ever since, with no logic to it at all.
When you read the law, and understand that ATF must enforce the law as written, it's hard to see a way around it. The SCOTUS gave them an "out" in '92, but they chose not to take it, for reasons best left to speculation.
Kristensdaddy
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I'd rather not be the test case!
That said, I'll just hope the ATF is too busy providing guns to the Mexican drug cartels to bother with me using an Encore.
That said, I'll just hope the ATF is too busy providing guns to the Mexican drug cartels to bother with me using an Encore.
Kristensdaddy
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Question, would it matter that the gun originally started out as a 20 ga shotgun and not a rifle?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Not really as the same language appears, "...made from a shotgun..."
If it's shoulder-fired it can't be made into a legal "concealable" <26" gun with <16" (or <18" for shotguns) barrels.
What is started as isn't really the question anyway. If it has had a stock installed, while that stock is installed it IS a rifle or shotgun. That's pretty unassailable logic.
Remember, the legal definition of a rifle or shotgun both include the phrase "...designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder." They really nailed the question down.
If it IS a shotgun or rifle for any period of time, then anything you make from it in the future is something made from one or the other.
The language sucks because it's hard ever for lawyers to work around such clear -- if unfortunate -- words.
If it's shoulder-fired it can't be made into a legal "concealable" <26" gun with <16" (or <18" for shotguns) barrels.
What is started as isn't really the question anyway. If it has had a stock installed, while that stock is installed it IS a rifle or shotgun. That's pretty unassailable logic.
Remember, the legal definition of a rifle or shotgun both include the phrase "...designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder." They really nailed the question down.
If it IS a shotgun or rifle for any period of time, then anything you make from it in the future is something made from one or the other.
The language sucks because it's hard ever for lawyers to work around such clear -- if unfortunate -- words.
Kristensdaddy
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Not trying to keep asking stupid questions here. There are just so many permutations about this gun.
I suppose it would be legal (but totally useless) to have the pistol grip on the gun while it had a shotgun barrel attached but would be illegal to have a 22 inch .223 rifle barrel attached to the pistol grip.
Maybe I should just trade the whole mess for something else.
I suppose it would be legal (but totally useless) to have the pistol grip on the gun while it had a shotgun barrel attached but would be illegal to have a 22 inch .223 rifle barrel attached to the pistol grip.
Maybe I should just trade the whole mess for something else.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Not stupid questions!
It would be legal to install a pistol grip on a rifle or shotgun Encore if you can keep the total length over 26" and the barrels over 16"/18".
Let's say a Contender frame is about 5" long. And the pistol grip extends back another 1". That's 6", so you'd need to install a rifle or shotgun barrel of at least 20" to keep out of Title II territory, but that would be perfectly legal.
A rifle or shotgun doesn't HAVE to have a full butt stock, but they can't be configured as a "concealable" <26" firearm.
...
Just to muddy those waters, recently the ATF published a letter explaining that if you own a PGO shotgun that was sold as an "Other Firearm" and has never had a butt stock installed, that gun does NOT have to have an 18" barrel. As long as the total package is over 26", you can put any barrel you want on it because it has never met the definition of a "Shotgun" (...designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder).
Only a few shotguns both come PGO style from the factory and will make that 26" length with a barrel less than 18", but a few do.
The same thing applies to semi-auto clones of belt-fed machine guns. If you've got a semi-auto M1919 or whatever, and it has never been configured "A6" style with a butt stock on it, you can install any length barrel you want as long as the entire gun is over 26".
Strange, huh?
It would be legal to install a pistol grip on a rifle or shotgun Encore if you can keep the total length over 26" and the barrels over 16"/18".
Let's say a Contender frame is about 5" long. And the pistol grip extends back another 1". That's 6", so you'd need to install a rifle or shotgun barrel of at least 20" to keep out of Title II territory, but that would be perfectly legal.
A rifle or shotgun doesn't HAVE to have a full butt stock, but they can't be configured as a "concealable" <26" firearm.
...
Just to muddy those waters, recently the ATF published a letter explaining that if you own a PGO shotgun that was sold as an "Other Firearm" and has never had a butt stock installed, that gun does NOT have to have an 18" barrel. As long as the total package is over 26", you can put any barrel you want on it because it has never met the definition of a "Shotgun" (...designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder).
Only a few shotguns both come PGO style from the factory and will make that 26" length with a barrel less than 18", but a few do.
The same thing applies to semi-auto clones of belt-fed machine guns. If you've got a semi-auto M1919 or whatever, and it has never been configured "A6" style with a butt stock on it, you can install any length barrel you want as long as the entire gun is over 26".
Strange, huh?
PLRinmypocket
Member
The answer is surprisingly simple....we just went thru an ATF audit so we got lots of questions answered. It all boils down to what the MANUFACTURER recorded in the Acquisition and Disposition record that they are required to keep by the ATF. what is done to it after that does not change this record.
If the Type of firearm that is recorded in the A&D record is RIFLE or SHOTGUN....then an 18-20 year old can get it. If it is recorded as anything else (Pistol, Frame, other,...) then you have to be 21.
Just ask the gun shop what it is recorded as in their A&D record. That's all the matters. (Unless your state has different laws)
If the Type of firearm that is recorded in the A&D record is RIFLE or SHOTGUN....then an 18-20 year old can get it. If it is recorded as anything else (Pistol, Frame, other,...) then you have to be 21.
Just ask the gun shop what it is recorded as in their A&D record. That's all the matters. (Unless your state has different laws)
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