Aiming the M1?

[Guy B. Meredith]

Okay, I have asked something similar to this before. When aiming with the Garand's 'peep' sight, should the target bullseye be centered or should the top of the front post sight be centered?

When putting the front sight under the black I run into problems with a bogus white area, sort of like a mirage. Can't gradually bring the sight up to eliminate the white--it moves up smoothly to a point and then takes a leap the rest of the way. Can't determine whether the point the top of the front sight goes to after the white is eliminated is the bottom of the black or just above.

 

[ocabj]

Okay, I have asked something similar to this before. When aiming with the Garand's 'peep' sight, should the target bullseye be centered or should the top of the front post sight be centered?

When putting the front sight under the black I run into problems with a bogus white area, sort of like a mirage. Can't gradually bring the sight up to eliminate the white--it moves up smoothly to a point and then takes a leap the rest of the way. Can't determine whether the point the top of the front sight goes to after the white is eliminated is the bottom of the black or just above.

Where you place the top of the front sight post with respects to the black is personal preference. Most people use 6 o'clock hold on the black. This offers the easiest way to obtain sight picture and alignment for most people. Sometimes, people will use center hold. The main benefit center hold offers is that light issues that can affect how 'big' the black appears will not affect the point of aim / impact as it would in 6 o'clock hold.

But the problem with center hold is that it can be hard to find the actual center hold placement.

I prefer 6 o'clock hold.

The keys to good sight picture and alignment:

1. Always place your head in the same place during your string of fire. This will ensure that you maintain a consistent sight picture.

2. Focus on the front sight post only. There is no need to focus on the rear aperture since the previous point will ensure that rear aperture alignment is second nature. You should not focus on the black/target. If using 6 o'clock hold, all you do is focus on the front sight post and wait until you 'lolipop' the front sight with the black and let the bullet fly.

 

[chopinbloc]

i could be mistaken, but it sounds like you are mixing up sight picture and "hold." the top of your front sight post should always be centered in the rear sight aperture. this is sight picture. the way you "hold" on target will be personal preference but you must do it the same every time, especially when you zero. this also depends on what type of shooting you intend to do with the rifle. KD (known distance) target shooting is a completely different animal than defensive shooting at humans or animals at differing ranges. if the former is the case, then you will simply decide whether you prefer a six o' clock hold or a center hold and then zero with that style at the range which you will be shooting. if the latter is the case, you will select a KD to zero at appropriate to your needs and the trajectory of the load you intend to use, decide on the hold you prefer and zero. i feel like a center hold is more realistic for defensive shooting because it doesn't rely on the size of the bull'seye to remain constant. that is, i can put the tip of the front sight ON the spot i want to hit and know the round will impact exactly where i want, regardless of the size of the target. at ranges in excess of three hundred meters you will most likely have to know the proper sight adjustments or "hold over" for that range. whether you choose to make the adjustments on the sight or simply move your "hold" higher is, again, personal preference and will be determined by your own needs. wind will also start to make a bit of a difference at this range and you should look into what adjustments will be necessary with wind as well.

an m1 garand is a fine rifle and can do nearly anything you ask it to - from a highpower match at five hundred yards to home protection (yes, i said it) as long as you do your part and feed it a load appropriate for the purpose. i imagine you are new to the garand and perhaps centerfire rifle shooting in general. if you are not, i'm sorry if i sound condescending. if you are, i suggest getting your hands on the appropriate army TMs and FMs for your US rifle, cal. .30, M1. the manuals will explain how to zero and maintain your rifle.

 

[Swampy]

Guy asks:

Okay, I have asked something similar to this before. When aiming with the Garand's 'peep' sight, should the target bullseye be centered or should the top of the front post sight be centered?

Either way will work, as long as you are consistent. Most folks I know center the top of the post and put the bull on that. This also has the advantage when shooting "non-round" targets... i.e. silhouettes, game, etc....

Just be sure you are NOT, rpt. NOT using any OTHER part of the post as an indexing point, such as holding the sight wings or the base against the rear aperture. This will throw you off if you are not 100% perfect in your head position from shot to shot. It is also just one more thing your are trying to "Line Up" visually. YOu don't need it......

Below is a posting I made to a "sticky" on another board (slightly edited). It addresses parts of your problem.

Best regards,
Swampy


********
Jack,
Don't know if I'm the kind of "Expert" you are after, but that's what my NRA Highpower card says I am... Have not quite made it to Master yet, but I'm getting real close... just have to string 3 matches back to back in which I make it above the 94% Master break point. Done 2 in row several times, but keep missing that third one.... Oh well...

Sight "Holds"....

There are several different holds that apply to all USGI Service Rifles. What hold the shooter chooses is purely personal preference. There is no specific hold that relates to the position being used.... it's all subjective.

Probably the most common is the 6 O'Clock hold, or the "baseball on the fencpost". Obviously, it's putting the target's aiming black so that it sits atop the front post as if it's resting on it. This is probably the easiest to teach to shooters who are new to USGI type iron sights with a front post and aperture rear.

The next most common hold would be the Center Mass, or Navy hold. This is putting the top edge of the post in the center of the bull or whatever target is being used. For many seasoned and experienced competitors this is a bit more precise than the 6 O'Clock hold, but you do have to have a very fine control over your focus in order to hold down variances in windage and elevation. Shooters who are new to aperture and post seem to have the most trouble with this and do better with the 6 O'Clock.

Variances to these two are the "Flat Tire" hold and the "Line of White" hold. Flat tire is bringing the post just up into the black bull so that it appears the bottom is flattened, the Line of white is just opposite, holding the post slightly away from the bull so that a bit of light shows between them.

What you choose to use where depends on your eyesight, and what seems easiest for you to use in the conditions you shoot.

Personally, I started out using the 6 O'Clock hold in all positions.... It works. I shot a lot of very good scores with the 6 O'clock hold. Many shooters though, especially those with older eyes, have a problem with elevation because of a visual phenomenon I call the "bloop".... When you bring the post up to the bull and try to make a fine alignment with the bottom of the black, it appears that the black does not want to let the post touch it... it seems to contract and expand like a black balloon that is being compressed between two books.... but as you bring the sight up further to try to make it touch, it all of a sudden goes "bloop" and the sight is not just touching the black, but is fully into the bottom third of it, looking alike a "Flat tire" hold. There seems to be no middle ground here......

This is strictly a subjective phenomena.... Many shooters have never experienced it and look at you like you just landed from Mars when you try to explain it. Good for them... glad they don't have that visual handicap. As for me and many others I know, the solution to this was to intentionally go to another hold.

For me, I ended up using a Flat Tire hold for the rapid fire stages and a Navy Hold for the Prone Slow and Standing Slow fire. So far these have given me the best results..... My scores have improved significantly from the 6 O'Clock hold. Again, that's just me. Every shooter has their own preferences as to what hold they use in what position or circumstances...

I know many Master class and above shooters who still use 6 O'Clock and are happy. Many also use other holds.... or combinations of holds like I do.

In the end, try them all and use what works for you....

ONe thing.... Re the Sight Wings on the front sight. I know very few shooters who actually try to use these as a part of their sight picture. For me trying to keep track of where the wings are while doing everything else would be an added and un-needed distraction. My eye naturally centers the front post and bull without the need to use them. Most other shooters I know feel the same way. I'd advise letting your eye's natural ability work for you and just concentrate on the post and bull (FOCUSING, of course, only on the front sight post).
Also, if you index your sight alignment off the sight wings, your head position will make a difference in elevation. The effect of moving your head and indexing the wings agains the aperture changes the position of the top of the post within the aperture itself. Move your head forward and the post moves up in the aperture, move your head aft and the post drops. You will be shooting high and low depending on inconsistent head positon... IF you are indexing your sight with the wings against the rear aperture.
Ignore the wings...... Let your eye's natural centering ability do the work.

Just my thoughts,
Swampy

Garands forever
__________________
The difference between a hot dog and a weenie is a very fine line.

 

[30Cal]

Before you shoot next time, blacken your front sight with either the spray can stuff (birchwood casey) or with candlesoot. It sounds to me like the glare is complicating things for you. It should make a huge improvement and will allow you a more consistant picture.

I usually use a line-of-white hold and shoot at a brisk pace. That's what works most consistantly for me.

 

[Swampy]

Before you shoot next time, blacken your front sight with either the spray can stuff (birchwood casey) or with candlesoot. It sounds to me like the glare is complicating things for you. It should make a huge improvement and will allow you a more consistant picture.

.30cal,

This may indeed be a part of his problem..... but be advised that the "bloop" phenomena that I described in my post (which sounds identical to his) takes place regardless of how well the sights are blacked. I use a carbide smoker on my sights religiously, as do others I know who experience this, and it makes no difference whether or not it happens.

Again, the "bloop" is purely a subjective phenomena. I don't have a clue why some people see it and others don't. At one point I thought it might have something to do with the strength of a persons eyeglass prescription, but have since talked to people with eyes "across the board" in prescreptions who both do and do not see it. I dunno'......:banghead:

In my own case, going to the "flat tire" and the "Navy" hold seemed to be the solution. My scores have improved anyway......

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I think of it in a simple way. I just make sure my eye is as perfect as can be centered in the rear apeture then where ever either the front post or front apeture is becomes my point of impact.
When shooting a post I am like many folks and use the 6 hold for off hand and rapid sitting mainly because to me it is more of a point and shoot position. And I have tried to go to center on those also but I will need a whole year to devote to it that I do not have the time to do except to play with it. I find two things when I go to center on that target. one is I find I take shots faster and that is not always good. Two is when I am not during number one I find in rapid I find it hard to clean the shot up.
In prone I always use center hold but will not teach it to someone untill I know they have the understanding of prone shooting and are having troubles with keeping up scores in all conditions with the 6 hold.
I teach them most of the time after they have already reached master level and I keep it simple. In reduced matches they now are not happy if they do not clean it in the slow prone and the actual 600 yard stage they find it on a good day they are scoring very high and even on bad days they should always shoot a master score.
My way is not the only way but is a way that has been used by some world champions. Those are in the set up and execution of the shot from the beginning to the end.
The only thing that I differ after I show them that is to make it real simple. You now will have NO shots out in the corners and your shots will come faster and you will have more time in a known condition.
Just think of the black in the target as having 3 sections and not scoring rings so to speak. divide it in 3 equal parts on the rapid prone and slow prone target. All you have to do is to release the shot in the middle 3rd of the black and you will get a 10 or X if you have the correct wind on.
No more trying to define where the black starts at 6 o'clock or trying to fine tune a center hold. You know what the black looks like now bring it up from the bottom and stop somewhere in the middle 3rd and fire! On a day you can see well you will kill it and on a bad day you can lose that front sight in the black and still do very, very well.
You as alot of folks will have many, many days where you see the front post fine and then you move it into the black it vanishes. On those days it still works and while you see the post you control the breath to move it into the black so you will know all you need to do is just stop it someplace in the middle 1/3 of the black. Think about it this way even if you mess up 30% of the time and you shoot a 9 just out the top or bottom you still just shot a high master score on it.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I use a navy hold. i hold the top of the front sight in the middle of aim point with everthing else centered. this seems to be the best in field conditions.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

The "bloop" it is--no clean transition from white line to touching black.

Thanks for the great insights from all. Quite a bit to chew on. I am, in fact, new to high powered rifles and longer ranges. I did some shooting with a sporterized Springfield bolt action of one sort or another with a scope and very brief bit with a punishing Argentine Mauser carbine in 30-06, but that was around 40 years ago. (I just love being able to quote those time passages and feel the glory of being a senior.)

The original question is what is supposed to be centered in the aperture. For center hold everything is centered, for 6:00 I was trying to figure whether the bullseye or the post top were supposed to center.

Since most of my shooting is revolver I have developed a preference for center hold, but at 100 yards with an 8" bull the two blend. On further thought, I guess actually at that range the post is beginning to appear 'larger' than the bull so I will try seeing a half circle dome on the post. Jon's comments seem to fit what I observed as well. Great thoughts.

I did manage to keep most of my shots in the 8" black at 100 yds with a CMP Field grade 1943 straight out of the delivery box using their surplus ammo. Next step is to tighten the groups and make them predicable.

 

[Tom C.]

An alternative is to replace the front sight with an aperture. Round sight works well on round targets. Not legal for military matches, but who cares.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Alot of shooters will tell you not to mix apeture and post as they may cause you some problems as they use a different approch.
Once you understand and do not let the two conflict it will not be so much of a problem.
As others have said with the post you must try to have a clear front post and that you keep your focus on the post and not the black of the target.
You will see the bull but you are moving the post into it and are concentrating on the post.

With the apeture front sight you are focusing on the target its self. A new person not used to it will have problems going from one to the other unless they totally understand the princibles behind both front sights.

Guy: as to the original question you must always look threw the rear apeture the same for every shot and have your eye dead centered looking threw it.
If you do that every time and then have your rifle set up it will not matter if it is a post or apeture on the front. You will just adjust the sights so the poi relates to your front sight.
Now how you apply that to what you want to look at does not matter as long as you follow the above. You decide what you want as to a ball on the fence or center or what ever. Change it between shots if you wish as long as you know to change the rear sight on the M1 to match what you want.

I hope you decide to give the post front a preference as that is the traditional way and military style match are a big hit. After you master the post it will help you later if you use a scope or a front apeture. That way you are forced to learn the proper hold and sight picture and it will pay big dividends when you try other things.

Think about it this way for a second. If you get good with a post front sight you will do well with other sights like scopes and the such. But why does the person who shoots scopes have to learn to shoot a front post if they did not learn with one. You may not see the movement on your sights like you do with a scope but you do learn what it takes for that perfect shot and it wil help you.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

I have seen aperture front sights on competition rifles and rather like the idea for that purpose.

I am interested in this particular rifle for historical value and will stay with post front sight on this one.

Also I am a fan of very vanilla revolvers, all of which have post type front sights.

 

[Swampy]

I have seen aperture front sights on competition rifles and rather like the idea for that purpose.

Guy,

Beware that putting a "non-GI issue" sight on an M1, M14, or M16(AR15) takes it out of the Service Rifle division and places it in the Match Rifle division.

Basically there are two divisions in NRA Highpower.... Service Rifle and Match Rifle. Match Rifle is pretty much "everything else" that won't qualify as Service Rifle.

Match Rifle division is where all the super modified Winny mod. 70 and Remmy 700 bolt guns with the sliding hand stop, 4 way adjustable butt, and rear sight that costs more than my first car (front sight too, most likely) are shooting. Also, the Tubb 2000 rifles and more AR "Space Guns" than you can shake a stick at......

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever