AK-47 vs AR-15 in a Hurricane Situation
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Domino
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I see a pretty tight group with one flyier, since it is most likely operator error I don't see how that has ANYTHING to do with the accuracy of the rifle itself. If you are getting 12-14" groups it is your fault, I don't believe that ALL of your AK's are that innaccurate. You obviously do not know how to shoot an AK type rifle worth a hoot so quite blamming your guns.
With good ammo and in the right hands AK's can be utilized just as effectively as any other carbine. AK's are not tackdrivers by design but, the lack of accuracy you are claiming is just unrealistic and OBVIOUSLY user error. Some people are gun snobs so they will make themselves believe what the want to believe.
Sam Cade
Member
My VeprII will consistantly shoot 2 moa with domestic ammo.
My MaadI 3.
The Norinco AKS 3.5-4.
My MaadI 3.
The Norinco AKS 3.5-4.
Father Knows Best
Member
I'm never going to assert that you can't shoot a rifle. I will say that if the best you can do with an AK is 12+" groups at 100 yards, then you can't shoot an AK. It's always possible, of course, that you had a particularly bad AK, or bad ammo, or ammo that just wasn't right for that particular AK, but you seem pretty adamant that no AK can shoot better than 12" in your hands. If that's true, then it ain't gun. I've seen plenty of AK's that can and do group much better than that, both in my hands and in the hands of everyone else who has shot them.
I'm no going to try and tell you that the AK is a supremely accurate rifle, or even that you average AK is just as accurate as your average AR. It's not. The AR is inherently more accurate due to several factors. But even an average AK will do much better than 12" at 100 yards. If you can't get it to do so, then as I said, the problem is not with the rifle.
The Good Old Kalishnikov
I own a variety of firearms. I believe that the time to determine which firearm to use should be performed long before the need arises. Given the choice between the Colt and the Kalishikov. I own a Valmet M-71 in .223. Although it is not as accurate as my AR-15 it is a lot more rugged and simpler. I have had M-16's fail to operate reliable in Artic conditions, but the Valmet was issued to the Finns and I think that they know something about Artic operations. And I know from first hand experience they work quite well in the tropics. Additionally I have a razor sharp bayonet, but when the the opposition gets that close, you've committed a critical tactical error. I believe in always keeping an AWOL bag packed in case I have to bug out. I have long sense realized that when the government takes care of you. you really get taken care of. I don't keep any of my mags loaded, but I do have a pack of .223 reserved for serious social work. Your marksmanship is the skill which will enable you to survive, The firearm is merely the tool. Hopefully this will just be a critcal excersise in planning and we will never have fire in anger.
I own a variety of firearms. I believe that the time to determine which firearm to use should be performed long before the need arises. Given the choice between the Colt and the Kalishikov. I own a Valmet M-71 in .223. Although it is not as accurate as my AR-15 it is a lot more rugged and simpler. I have had M-16's fail to operate reliable in Artic conditions, but the Valmet was issued to the Finns and I think that they know something about Artic operations. And I know from first hand experience they work quite well in the tropics. Additionally I have a razor sharp bayonet, but when the the opposition gets that close, you've committed a critical tactical error. I believe in always keeping an AWOL bag packed in case I have to bug out. I have long sense realized that when the government takes care of you. you really get taken care of. I don't keep any of my mags loaded, but I do have a pack of .223 reserved for serious social work. Your marksmanship is the skill which will enable you to survive, The firearm is merely the tool. Hopefully this will just be a critcal excersise in planning and we will never have fire in anger.
chopinbloc
Member
peoria,
you make excellent points and i agree wholeheartedly that the best shtf rifle is one you own, can shoot well, have plenty of ammo (and mags if required for that weapon), and wouldn't mind humping long distances with. what i'm trying to say is that an ak is a fine weapon, i own one, i love it and i plan on buying at least one more. the ar is also a fine weapon, i own two and i love them both. personally, i would probably grab the short ar if the shtf or more likely i would take the long one and let my lady friend take the short one.
i am simply trying to point out that the ak is NOT the be-all, end-all social rifle. nor is the ar. both have weaknesses. the ar, in my opinion, has more rumored weakness than real. hopefully someone will make a good, decent ak that will not rust and comes with a factory peep rear sight for a decent price. krebs makes some darn good rifles from what i can see, but i don't want to spend 1,000 dollars on an ak. just doesn't make sense. it's like wiping before you poop.
back to the topic. the choice was ak or ar for NO style shtf. not m1a nor lever guns. i would prefer a short ar with a minimum of uber-tacticool stuff hanging off it. i would not feel innadequately prepared with an ak. i would be able to carry more ammo more comfotably with the ar, though and that is always comforting.
lastly, who (besides really stupid cops) is likely to press the issue if you are visibly armed with either rifle?
you make excellent points and i agree wholeheartedly that the best shtf rifle is one you own, can shoot well, have plenty of ammo (and mags if required for that weapon), and wouldn't mind humping long distances with. what i'm trying to say is that an ak is a fine weapon, i own one, i love it and i plan on buying at least one more. the ar is also a fine weapon, i own two and i love them both. personally, i would probably grab the short ar if the shtf or more likely i would take the long one and let my lady friend take the short one.
i am simply trying to point out that the ak is NOT the be-all, end-all social rifle. nor is the ar. both have weaknesses. the ar, in my opinion, has more rumored weakness than real. hopefully someone will make a good, decent ak that will not rust and comes with a factory peep rear sight for a decent price. krebs makes some darn good rifles from what i can see, but i don't want to spend 1,000 dollars on an ak. just doesn't make sense. it's like wiping before you poop.
back to the topic. the choice was ak or ar for NO style shtf. not m1a nor lever guns. i would prefer a short ar with a minimum of uber-tacticool stuff hanging off it. i would not feel innadequately prepared with an ak. i would be able to carry more ammo more comfotably with the ar, though and that is always comforting.
lastly, who (besides really stupid cops) is likely to press the issue if you are visibly armed with either rifle?
Father Knows Best
Member
A number of posters have said similar things, i.e., that the AR is the more "PC" choice and would be less likely to draw negative reactions.
I don't buy it. Both the AR and the AK are "military style" weapons. Anyone who is going to freak out at you holding an AK is also going to freak out at you holding an AR. If you're concerned about the "perception" issue, you either shouldn't be carrying a long gun at all, or you should be carrying a wood-stocked pump shotgun or lever rifle. Those are about as PC as it gets.
As for me, I'm grabbing my AK. I don't have an AR, so there's not much debate. True, I could grab any of my .30 rifles, instead (PTR-91, SA58, several M1 Garands), but the AK is handier and much better suited to personal and family defense than those others. I have a couple of nice lever rifles that would be more PC, but none of them have slings (a real disadvantage in a bug-out), and carrying ammo is much more difficult (fixed tubular mags with limited capacity and slow to reload).
Too Many Choices!?
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Forgot to say I own examples of both rifles also,
and I would still grab the,"Semi-ninjafied", M4(surefire m73 quad rail, forward-mounted dot,Scorpion flashlight,carry handle, on an A3 flat top with a2 stock and ability to change configs. in under a minute) over the,"stock", WASR AK every time
...
and I would still grab the,"Semi-ninjafied", M4(surefire m73 quad rail, forward-mounted dot,Scorpion flashlight,carry handle, on an A3 flat top with a2 stock and ability to change configs. in under a minute) over the,"stock", WASR AK every time
...TooTaxed
Member
From my experience in Vietnam with both...the AK wins, hands down. The AR is relatively fragile, requires MUCH more TLC, and breaks down much faster if it doesn't get it.
Powderman
Member
IMHO, if the situation has gone downhill where the S has well and truly Hit The Fan, I won't be worried AT ALL what the "authorities" think. From what the latest news from N.O. has been, I will be avoiding them as much as possible!
Here's how it would break down for my household:
My "go to" rifle if we have to move about or if I have to arm the whole household is my M1A, aka the Big Boomstick. I don't think I have to elaborate on the wondrous effects of 7.62 ball on bad guys.
(Of course, I COULD grab the Garand--That's the BIG Boomstick--in all caps! )
Another, and perhaps more practical choice would be the 1903 Springfield. No magazines to worry about; balances well, is more than accurate enough, combat tested--and proven, almost no moving parts, easy to maintain--what's not to love about that?
My son, if he's handy, gets the AR15. Why? Marine combat vet, Iraq, and knows full well how to make the AR15 sing--especially with 55 grain soft points. )
The wife gets the AK--in its current configuration it has a 4x IER scope, mounted in scout configuration, over the front heatshield. In this position, you can look right through the scope with both eyes open and hold a good sight picture.
Another reason for this is because both me and my son are meticulous about weapon cleanliness, and can make them talk in all conditions. The wife is not so well versed, so she gets the one that will function well without maintenance--if it's necessary.
Now, if we're holed up in the house, though, I will also have the .300 Win Mag handy--because there's something appealing about being able to smack something with long heavy bullets at long ranges.
Here's how it would break down for my household:
My "go to" rifle if we have to move about or if I have to arm the whole household is my M1A, aka the Big Boomstick. I don't think I have to elaborate on the wondrous effects of 7.62 ball on bad guys.
(Of course, I COULD grab the Garand--That's the BIG Boomstick--in all caps!
)Another, and perhaps more practical choice would be the 1903 Springfield. No magazines to worry about; balances well, is more than accurate enough, combat tested--and proven, almost no moving parts, easy to maintain--what's not to love about that?
My son, if he's handy, gets the AR15. Why? Marine combat vet, Iraq, and knows full well how to make the AR15 sing--especially with 55 grain soft points.
)The wife gets the AK--in its current configuration it has a 4x IER scope, mounted in scout configuration, over the front heatshield. In this position, you can look right through the scope with both eyes open and hold a good sight picture.
Another reason for this is because both me and my son are meticulous about weapon cleanliness, and can make them talk in all conditions. The wife is not so well versed, so she gets the one that will function well without maintenance--if it's necessary.
Now, if we're holed up in the house, though, I will also have the .300 Win Mag handy--because there's something appealing about being able to smack something with long heavy bullets at long ranges.
KaceCoyote
Member
The M1A has magazines to worry about just fine. Leverguns rule the day if your terrified of magazines.
biere
Member
The m1a I owned for a while came from the springfield factory setup to accept stripper clips.
I never tried it since the only stripper clips I had were 223, but I figured on getting 308 versions if I ever made the m1a into a bug out rifle or something.
I also believe there is a cali legal fal with a welded magazine, mag welded to gun, that has a stripper clip top. Probably expensive and I don't think it would be worth the hassle, but odd things are out there.
As far as me being on topic, I choose the ak.
For something like new orleans where I might have to be moving regardless of if I wish to be moving I like the idea of something that folds up well.
And an ak with a folding stock does seem to become rather compact in my opinion.
I think being able to load using a change of magazine is great. But I also think being able to top off your magazine using a stripper clip is great, and with the m1a setup already in the gun I think that is about as good as it gets.
I never tried it since the only stripper clips I had were 223, but I figured on getting 308 versions if I ever made the m1a into a bug out rifle or something.
I also believe there is a cali legal fal with a welded magazine, mag welded to gun, that has a stripper clip top. Probably expensive and I don't think it would be worth the hassle, but odd things are out there.
As far as me being on topic, I choose the ak.
For something like new orleans where I might have to be moving regardless of if I wish to be moving I like the idea of something that folds up well.
And an ak with a folding stock does seem to become rather compact in my opinion.
I think being able to load using a change of magazine is great. But I also think being able to top off your magazine using a stripper clip is great, and with the m1a setup already in the gun I think that is about as good as it gets.
demusn1979
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ak47nevada
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Yeah, you'd probably fit in better with an AR-15, the AK might make the armed troops enforcing martial law a bit edgy and possibly even offended by your choice of carbine.
...but... if you're like me, no matter how bad you may want an AR15 ... you'll always go with 3 GP-WASRs for the same price
...but... if you're like me, no matter how bad you may want an AR15 ... you'll always go with 3 GP-WASRs for the same price
For me right this minute, I have a VEPR K in 7.62, an AR with Holosight, and an M1A. My VEPR is brand new so I am still getting used to it.
Walking: I would probably go with the AR as it is lighter and the Holosight is sighted in pretty good. I can shoot 10" at 100 yards free standing pretty easily with Wolf FMJ's. The extra mags and ammo is lighter as well.
Driving: M1A probably edges out my VEPR right now. More power and weight doesn't matter if I am driving. I wouldn't even consider this rifle and the mags if I was walking due to weight.
The VEPR K is the backup gun in both cases.
On walking, I live in Clear Lake about 200 yards from one of NASA's gates. If I can't stay here, there is not much within 20 miles where I would want to be. It reminds me that I need to get that copy of Backroads of Texas map book. I hear it has all the dirt roads as well as everything else.
Walking: I would probably go with the AR as it is lighter and the Holosight is sighted in pretty good. I can shoot 10" at 100 yards free standing pretty easily with Wolf FMJ's. The extra mags and ammo is lighter as well.
Driving: M1A probably edges out my VEPR right now. More power and weight doesn't matter if I am driving. I wouldn't even consider this rifle and the mags if I was walking due to weight.
The VEPR K is the backup gun in both cases.
On walking, I live in Clear Lake about 200 yards from one of NASA's gates. If I can't stay here, there is not much within 20 miles where I would want to be. It reminds me that I need to get that copy of Backroads of Texas map book. I hear it has all the dirt roads as well as everything else.
seeker_two
Member
Sorry to be the odd man out here, but I don't think I'd want to rely on any semi-auto in a situation such as this--esp. one firing intermediate-power ammo.
NOLA has motivated me to up my supply of milsurp bolt-actions (esp. Mosins and Enfields) and ammo...
1. Durable & reliable as all get-out...
2. No detachable mags to get lost (except on the Lee-Enfields, but you don't HAVE to detach them....)
3. Inexpensive to purchase beforehand (and afterwards when the originals get confiscated--maybe)...
4. Powerful ammo that offers a lot of penetration (good for mobs and armored targets)...
I already have one SMLE sporter that my grandfather left me. I intend on supplementing it with a #4 or #5 and a case or two of S&B .303Brit ammo as soon as funds allow. May even pick up a M44 and ammo just for something different, too...
OK. Sorry to distract. Y'all can get back to the AR vs. AK discussion now...
NOLA has motivated me to up my supply of milsurp bolt-actions (esp. Mosins and Enfields) and ammo...
1. Durable & reliable as all get-out...
2. No detachable mags to get lost (except on the Lee-Enfields, but you don't HAVE to detach them....)
3. Inexpensive to purchase beforehand (and afterwards when the originals get confiscated--maybe)...
4. Powerful ammo that offers a lot of penetration (good for mobs and armored targets)...
I already have one SMLE sporter that my grandfather left me. I intend on supplementing it with a #4 or #5 and a case or two of S&B .303Brit ammo as soon as funds allow. May even pick up a M44 and ammo just for something different, too...
OK. Sorry to distract. Y'all can get back to the AR vs. AK discussion now...
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
How is it possible that a thread that runs once a week goes 4-5 pages every week it comes up?
seeker_two
Member
Worked for the Brits a number of times....
...and hits (esp. with ammo that can penetrate 2-3 looters at once) are the only thing that count...
I am sure that if the Brits could have had better weopons, they would have chosen them. They didn't go to the armory and say " those semi-autos aren't good against mobs, let's take the bolt action rifles."
An M1A or FAL would have equal effect as any bolt action you would use. More effect actually since you could put more bullets down range accurately. I would get an M1 Garand before a Mauser in that situation.
An M1A or FAL would have equal effect as any bolt action you would use. More effect actually since you could put more bullets down range accurately. I would get an M1 Garand before a Mauser in that situation.
chopinbloc
Member
because it is a complicated issue, people seem to be split basically down the middle on it and most of us enjoy discussing the ins and outs of particular well proven designs.
in regards to the above statement, i think the garand - while a venerable rifle - would be a poor choice for shtf. because the clips automatically eject, you have zero chance of recovering them in a firefight. hint: if you are shooting in a shtf situtation, it is probably a firefight and the last thing you want to do is scurry around picking up clips. a detachable magazine can be retained in a pocket if you so desire. a lever or bolt gun needs no mags. with the garand when you are out of mags, the only thing you can do is slowly and clumsily fire single shots. now before people start yellin' at me about what a great rifle the garand is, let me say that i know it's a great rifle but it was designed for combat with a constant supply of preloaded clips. with the two designs the discussion focuses on, one COULD pack just two mags and a bunch of loose ammo, reloading mags as necessary.
And the Brits had an ARMY of men using the bolt action Enfields. Nothing against the #1 Mk III or Mk IV, I have both, but in this situation a reliable semi-auto with an intermediate cartridge is better. You really want to lug 100 or even 50 rounds of .303 British and that big rifle designed to shoot at cavilry?
AR, AK or SKS are all good choices, but I prefer an AK-74 and the 5.45 or better yet .223. More accurate than AK's in 7.62, but with the inherent reliability of the AK. Best of both worlds.
Cpl Punishment
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RE: using bolt guns.
Guys are assuming that they are no good because they apparently think that these roaming looters are Chinese stormtroopers high on opium that will execute human wave attacks and press despite any losses taken.
However, this has proven to not be the case. Often they will retreat at the mere sight of a weapon, and one or two shots fired AT them will almost always scatter them.
I always here that the end is near people need to get their guns and stuff now. Well, in that vein, not everyone has all kinds of money to spend on the gun of the week. It may take several months for a lot of people to save up for even a decent AR. A lot of people I know would have to save months for an AK. It's better for them to spend a hundred bucks on a Mauser or Mosin or Enfield, and have some ammo with it, than to have their tacticool rifle on lay-a-way when the much anticipated Fall of Rome, Part Deux occurs. Not to mention the fact that the $800 they save can buy the much more needed equipment, food/water stores, etc that would be desperately needed in such a situation.
$200 will buy a person a Mauser or Mosin and more ammo than they could comfortably carry.
$300 will buy a person an SKS and 1,000 rounds (or about 2000 rounds if they buy the surplus on stripper clips).
It's about twice that for a Romanian AK (which everyone seems to look down their noses at), the attendant magazines and case of ammo.
It's THREE TIMES that for a baseline AR, with the two magazines that come with it and NOTHING else.
Even more for an M1A, or if they want to add all the toys that are constantly hand-wrung over on the internet to their base AR.
People would be best off buying the most RELIABLE gun they can afford for the end of the known universe, rather than trying to be fashionable.
If you can afford the latest and greatest, go for it. If someone can't there's no reason for people to be calling them stupid or belittling them for making the best choices for themselves.
Guys are assuming that they are no good because they apparently think that these roaming looters are Chinese stormtroopers high on opium that will execute human wave attacks and press despite any losses taken.
However, this has proven to not be the case. Often they will retreat at the mere sight of a weapon, and one or two shots fired AT them will almost always scatter them.
I always here that the end is near people need to get their guns and stuff now. Well, in that vein, not everyone has all kinds of money to spend on the gun of the week. It may take several months for a lot of people to save up for even a decent AR. A lot of people I know would have to save months for an AK. It's better for them to spend a hundred bucks on a Mauser or Mosin or Enfield, and have some ammo with it, than to have their tacticool rifle on lay-a-way when the much anticipated Fall of Rome, Part Deux occurs. Not to mention the fact that the $800 they save can buy the much more needed equipment, food/water stores, etc that would be desperately needed in such a situation.
$200 will buy a person a Mauser or Mosin and more ammo than they could comfortably carry.
$300 will buy a person an SKS and 1,000 rounds (or about 2000 rounds if they buy the surplus on stripper clips).
It's about twice that for a Romanian AK (which everyone seems to look down their noses at), the attendant magazines and case of ammo.
It's THREE TIMES that for a baseline AR, with the two magazines that come with it and NOTHING else.
Even more for an M1A, or if they want to add all the toys that are constantly hand-wrung over on the internet to their base AR.
People would be best off buying the most RELIABLE gun they can afford for the end of the known universe, rather than trying to be fashionable.
If you can afford the latest and greatest, go for it. If someone can't there's no reason for people to be calling them stupid or belittling them for making the best choices for themselves.
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