AK accuracy: SAR/Vector/VEPR/Arsenal

[grimjaw]

So I'm in the gun store tonight, and they happen to have a couple of AK47 style rifles. One was a WASR(#?) and the other two were SAR1's. I was surprised at how *light* these things were. Is that because they have stamped receivers rather than milled?

I've read up a bit, and come to expect that you typically won't get competition accuracy out of an AK47, mainly because of the design. I've also read that the Romanian rifles are worse than the Vector, VEPR, and Arsenal rifles. My question is, how much? With your typical SAR, am I going to be hitting the paper at 100 yards? Will it be inside a 1' target? 6"? Are the groups just very inconsistent? How much better accuracy can I expect out of a stock VEPR or Arsenal? Twice or three times as good?

For such a light rifle that feels handy, and is supposedly one of the best rifles when it comes to reliability, $345 + tax didn't seem like alot of money. Add the plus of relatively inexpensive ammunition, and I'm suddenly hankering for an AK47 fix.

jmm

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Hehe, once you get the AK bug, little else will do.

From a cobbled together WASR, you aren't going to be shooting match grade groups, but as you've heard that isn't where the AK design excells overall. You'll most likely be getting 3-5" groups at 100 yards. This is just from my experiences and those of friends. This may also vary a lot between individual rifles.

But yes, you will see a big step up in overall quality and accuracy from the name-brand stuff. VEPRs are probably going to be running in the lead of the pack in accuracy with the Arsenals close by. The reason the VEPRs get the nod is that they use an RPK receiver, which is milled and not stamped like some other AK receivers, giving it more stiffness and rigidity (consistency=accuracy). Expecting to get 2" or less with the VEPR would not be unreasonable.

Don't overlook the Saigas, though. They are pretty cheap and my Saiga .308 shoots around 1.5" at 100 yards.

I have no experience with the Vectors so I can't comment on them, but I'm sure someone will be along shortly with the good word.

The basic AK (like the WASR) will still make a really fun, good handling rifle, as you noticed. If you've got the green, one of the nicer examples will probably make you a lot happier at the range. The big selling point in my eyes is the boring and rugged reliability. Mmm, makes you feel warm and fuzzy...

PS- I forgot to add: please don't judge all AKs by experiences you might have with the WASR or even the SAR! If someone slapped together ARs and M1As from cheap, demilled parts kits, they'd have tons of issues. Get a good, 'name brand' example and then compare.

 

[clange]

VEPRs are probably going to be running in the lead of the pack in accuracy with the Arsenals close by. The reason the VEPRs get the nod is that they use an RPK receiver, which is milled and not stamped like some other AK receivers

The VEPR is a stamped rifle, the difference is the trunnion is larger. I think the receiver might be thicker than the normal 1.0mm, but its still a stamped rifle.

I forgot to add: please don't judge all AKs by experiences you might have with the WASR or even the SAR! If someone slapped together ARs and M1As from cheap, demilled parts kits

The WASR and SAR arent built from parts kits, and actually the SAR-1 is made on the exact same dies as the romanian AIM (as evidenced by the Y stamping for the auto sear hole). You pretty much cant get any closer to a real AKM receiver. (unless you get a Y stamped maadi)

My SAR with a red dot has also done the following group, so its much more accurate than I am. Many people claim the more expensive guns are more accurate, but its not always true. (dont know what happened on 1 and 4, but it was either my fault or wolfs fault judging by the other 4 being .8 inches or so)

 

[thereisnospoon]

Accuracy surprising

I recently purchased a Super VEPR II(here on HR). That started the AK bug. Then I got a SAR1.

I have to say I was really surprised at the accuracy of both wih Wolf ammo.

 

[Father Knows Best]

But yes, you will see a big step up in overall quality and accuracy from the name-brand stuff. VEPRs are probably going to be running in the lead of the pack in accuracy with the Arsenals close by. The reason the VEPRs get the nod is that they use an RPK receiver, which is milled and not stamped like some other AK receivers, giving it more stiffness and rigidity (consistency=accuracy).

As Clange pointed out, the Vepr is stamped, not milled. Its additional stiffness (and weight) comes from the fact that the steel used to form the receiver is 1.5 mm instead of the 1.0 mm used in conventional AKM clones.

The Arsenal SAM7 series rifles use forged and milled receivers.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of the reported substandard accuracy in AK clones can probably be traced to the ammunition and not the gun. Nobody makes match grade 7.62x39 ammo, and the cheap combloc stuff 98% of us shoot is very inconsistent. There are certainly reports of guys who have gotten MOA or close to it from high quality AK clones, but they were generally using handloaded ammo.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I did some horse trading awhile back and came away with a NIB SAR 1, 2001.
I shoot mostly Wolf ammo and from rest the groups are 3"-4" AT 100yds.
As the guys have mentioned, an AK is a must have in your arsenal and they ARE habit forming and of course a lot of fun to shoot.
Respectfully, Zeke

 

[MechAg94]

I took my Vepr K in 7.62X39 out to the range last weekend. I had mounted a Tantal BP02 scope mount with a Simmons 1.5-5X scope. Once I got out to 100 yards, I was keeping everything consistent within about 4 inches or so. I went to 200 yards and was keeping everything on paper, most in the 10" circle. All with Wolf. I probably could do better, but I can't remember the last time I shot beyond 100 yards so part of the inaccuracy was me and the 2 hours I had already been shooting. Anyway, I was happy with the accuracy as I think I will do better next time out. There is no way I could be accurate at 200 yards with the open sights.

The main thing I need to look into is a cartridge deflector to catch the ejected casings. Sometimes it would throw them a little forward into the grass, other times it would launch them 4 tables over. Luckily, it wasn't too crowded.

 

[benEzra]

My SAR-1 will stay on a 12" target easily at 200 yards with cheapo Wolf. I've gotten 2.5 MOA with optics and a cold barrel, but inconsistently so.

 

[LoadedDrum]

The vepr I had would do 1.5MOA with wolf fmj

 

[MartinS]

The SAR's we have, a 1 and 2, will clang a 1 foot sqaure steel plate at 300 yards from sitting or prone. The SAR 2 is a bit more accurate but both will get it done.
Besides being up to the shooter, consistancy seems to also depend on ammo. Try an assortment when you get your AK. Which you will because everyone needs a rifle to go to Hell with.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Oops.

My mistake on the receiver make, thanks for the correction. Results of each are still what my experiences show.

Also want to re-suggest the Saiga since no one else mentioned it. If you're handy with a dremel, you can put one into pistol grip configuration in an afternoon.

 

[grimjaw]

Much thanks for the info. Spooky, I am not handy with a Dremel, unless you want to consider that I might accidentally take my hand off with one.

I think I'm going to pick up the SAR1 tonight if they've still got it and it looks good. I'll let you know.

jmm

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Much thanks for the info. Spooky, I am not handy with a Dremel, unless you want to consider that I might accidentally take my hand off with one.

I think I'm going to pick up the SAR1 tonight if they've still got it and it looks good. I'll let you know.

jmm

If you're not handy with a Dremel, you might want to stay away from the WASRs. My brother and I love the things but we weren't afraid to take a Dremel to them. Each of ours came with a target showing a 100 yard 5 shot group of less than 5 inches. They also each came with viscious trigger slap and the AK's crude sights. We both put Mojo ghost ring sights on ours. He opted for the Red Star Arms trigger group cause he has more money than me. I went mad scientist on the POS Century components and managed to come out with a decent trigger pull while eliminating 90% of the trigger slap. I still plan on dropping in one of the RSA units but I am poor and threading our muzzles is more important to me right now. We also had to Dremel some burrs from the magazine well to get some of the standard capacity magazines to fit--in particular, the 30 round Bulgarian polymer waffle mags.
I haven't shot our rifles for accuracy on paper from a bench since we upgraded sights and triggers, but I would imagine, with the right man behind the gun, they could probably do 3 to 4 MOA all day long with the Wolf and maybe close to 2.5 MOA if you cooked up some handloads or found some premium ammunition. Esp my brother's since what I have felt of the RSA trigger is just sweet. I can hit gallon water jugs consistantly out to 150 yards from a sitting position, and taking a knee managed to score about 60% on a human torso cutout on a stand at 200 yards just blasting an entire 30 round mag downrange at about 1 round a second. Double taps easily stay within 4 or 5 inches shot offhand at 50 yards for me. All of this is done with Wolf ammo and tells me the rifle has all the accuracy it needs for the purposes it was intended for. You can put lead COM out to 300 or 400 yards, which is the effective range of the cartridge. After that, it was always assumed you could call up a designated marksmen with a scoped SVD.
I highly recommend you get yourself a Kalashnikov. Just go for something a little higher quality if you don't feel comfortable doing a few minutes of Dremel work to the WASR. My uncle has a MAK-90 that is nice and I hear very good things about the ARSENALs.

 

[grimjaw]

Do I qualify as a 'gun nut' now?

Romanian SAR1. It was used, actually, but still not a bad deal. I have alot of reading to do before taking it to the range tomorrow. If I get another one, it'll likely be something like a VEPR II 20".

BTW, 7.62x39 was hard to find and it's a damned shame. It was the last tax free day at Sportsman's Warehouse. :banghead:

jmm

 

[grimjaw]

Took the SAR1 to the range today. It must have been hovering right at freezing, overcast, wind blowing at a good clip west to east, and damp. I got set up to shoot too late to put out a target until the next cold range, so I set up on the 200 yard gong up on the hill.

I figured that since the rifle felt so light and the pull was so short, I was going to have a bruised shoulder. It wasn't anything like that, though. My first shot was high, and I got three off before I finally heard that satisfying *THUNK* from 200 yards. Recoil was very manageable. The trigger has some slap, but it's not terrible. I went through ten rounds before I left the magazine attached and Didn't experience any problems. I did notice a little smoke coming from the gas block, but I don't know if that's normal(?). The barrel got hot after I went through the rest of that magazine, but as cold as it was today, it didn't it long to cool back down. I can see where this rifle could double as an impromptu hand warmer on Siberian winter patrol.

Fired thirty more rounds at 75 yards once I got a target set up. All of them grouped within six inches, all high and right. I had the rear sight set wrong and that explains the elevation, but the front sight block is canted left by a smidge, so I'll have to fix that. I was using Silver Bear 124gr "Match" FMJ.

The length of pull is too short, so I'm looking around for a longer, polymer stock and matching forend. I don't know much about the various manufacturers. Other than that, I can't see a reason to change much on this one. Very fun to shoot. I've gotten so used to low capacity magazines, I was loving the 30 round mag. The 75 round drums must be a blast.

Thanks again for all the info. There's a few websites that have more on the Romanian rifles, and they're proving useful.

jmm

 

[SpookyPistolero]

http://www.k-var.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=270&1=271&2=1082

There's a website for a good place to look for new furniture. Glad you like your new find. The smoke coming out might have been left over cosmoline from storage. I'd just give it a good cleaning.