AK firing without gas tube?

[Killermonkey21]

I was messing around with my AK and I put it back together...and forgot to pute the gas tube back on, and I got to thinking. Could you run it without a gas tube? I mean, not neccesarily reliably, but with the racking of the bolt to cycle it, would it mess up the gun or anything fierce? Just out of curiosity.

-John

 

[Matrix187]

No idea.. but I know you would want to wear a pretty mean mask to guard your face from the blowback of gases.

 

[R.W.Dale]

You can run an SKS sans piston to create a handy straight pull rifle,

As to no tube on an AK variant but I wouldn't want to content with the potential of blowing off a finger the open gas port would create

 

[engravertom]

My understanding is the the rifle would become a manually operated straight pull. Without the gas from the tube, the bolt will not unlock, or move to the rear. You would have to pull the charging handle to the rear, to eject and reload.

The gas would vent from the hole in the barrel that normally goes into the tube. you would want to keep your face away from that. It might be like a single port compensator, and reduce muzzle flip just a bit.

If I am mistaken at all, someone please chime in!

I've thought of building a "ban proof" Ar in that fashion. Install a barrel without a gas port. Add a handle to the bolt, slot the receiver for the bolt handle. I've seen video on you tube. Apparently these are popular in the UK. haven't seen any AKs done that way yet.

HTH

Tom

 

[nalioth]

As to no tube on an AK variant but I wouldn't want to content with the potential of blowing off a finger the open gas port would create

Put the bong down, please.

Nobody is gonna blow their finger off with the gas tube out of the equation. At the most, they'll get a nasty burn if they stick their hand right on the gas block at the moment of ignition. . .

Although, I suppose if someone wanted to prove the point, they could somehow stick their finger in the gas block, but would need to remove the gas piston from the bolt carrier in order to do so.

My understanding is the the rifle would become a manually operated straight pull. Without the gas from the tube, the bolt will not unlock, or move to the rear. You would have to pull the charging handle to the rear, to eject and reload.

This is incorrect. The rifle would function just fine, but the odds of the gas piston being able to hit the gas block again are a lot higher without a gas tube to guide it into place. All of the momentum is provided to the gas piston inside the gas block - the gas tube has nothing to do with anything except to keep the gas tube lined up with the gas block.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Put the bong down, please.

lemmie guess you don't think a revolver cylinder gap can do nasty things to fingers do ya?

Nobody is gonna blow their finger off with the gas tube out of the equation. At the most, they'll get a nasty burn if they stick their hand right on the gas block at the moment of ignition. . .

then you should test this with YOUR fingers and post pics of the results

 

[nalioth]

Put the bong down, please.

lemmie guess you don't think a revolver cylinder gap can do nasty things to fingers do ya?

Nobody is gonna blow their finger off with the gas tube out of the equation. At the most, they'll get a nasty burn if they stick their hand right on the gas block at the moment of ignition. . .

then you should test this with YOUR fingers and post pics of the results

There is a major difference in hand position with a revolver and a Kalashnikov. Please put your thinking cap on, as you're just being ridiculous with all your posts so far.

 

[engravertom]

Thanks for the correction!

Tom

 

[R.W.Dale]

nalioth I'll put my thinking cap on if you'll take your A$$hat off.

Starting a post with accusing your fellow THR'ers of smoking weed.......very very High Road there buddy

 

[Roadwild17]

This is incorrect. The rifle would function just fine, but the odds of the gas piston being able to hit the gas block again are a lot higher without a gas tube to guide it into place. All of the momentum is provided to the gas piston inside the gas block - the gas tube has nothing to do with anything except to keep the gas tube lined up with the gas block

I would have to disagree. I dont think there would be enough pressure to push the gas piston back without the gas tube "holding" the gas in a way where it could push the piston. The gas would move the piston a little then dissipate to the side (90 deg) from the face of the piston instead of straight in line(180 deg) with the piston.

The same principal as with the energy loss due to a short barrel rifle.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

I hereby side with krochus

 

[nalioth]

This is incorrect. The rifle would function just fine, but the odds of the gas piston being able to hit the gas block again are a lot higher without a gas tube to guide it into place. All of the momentum is provided to the gas piston inside the gas block - the gas tube has nothing to do with anything except to keep the gas tube lined up with the gas block

I would have to disagree. I dont think there would be enough pressure to push the gas piston back without the gas tube "holding" the gas in a way where it could push the piston. The gas would move the piston a little then dissipate to the side (90 deg) from the face of the piston instead of straight in line(180 deg) with the piston.

. . except the countries that fielded vented gas tubes just blew your theory.

Next time you're at the range, load a round into an AK and have one in the mag and fire it without the gas tube. I think you can repeat this any number of times and you will not see any failures except in the return of the gas piston into the gas block itself.

 

[HorseSoldier]

+1 -- various versions of the AK gas tube vent at the front end. The kick to push the piston back is happening in the gas block itself.

 

[MD_Willington]

IIRC Overlord is a member here, he is also one of the guys from Ultimak over in Moscow Idaho, if you go to the Ultimak website they have a video of an AK pattern rifle being used without the gas tube... No one died, lost a finger or an eye...

 

[Roadwild17]

. . except the countries that fielded vented gas tubes just blew your theory.

There is a deff difference between a vented gas tube and no gas tube at all.

 

[Sam1911]

if you go to the Ultimak website they have a video of an AK pattern rifle being used without the gas tube

I have seen the video of an AK firing repeatedly without a gas tube. I've searched for it a number of times since and couldn't find it, but it does work.

Think of how the tube is constructed. The tube does not create even a half-way complete seal around the gas piston head. It's star-crimped down to diameter so only a few points of the interior of the tube even contact the gas piston head once it's moved back into the tube. There is no possible way that the seal (such as it isn't) of the tube around the piston head would hold enough pressure to move the piston. Disassemble your AK, and insert the piston into the tube 1/2-way down. Look through the tube? See all that daylight around the piston head? Yeah, that's where that gas is blowing past without imparting any energy to the piston.

(Yes, this is different from the design of the SKS where the piston is a lot closer to the I.D. of the tube.)

All of the impetus is delivered IN the gas block. The tube just guides the piston head back into the block reliably each time. If your AK happens to be set up so that the piston naturally lands back inside the gas block, there's no reason it won't cycle.

If I think of it, I'll run the experiment myself this Thursday at practice.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

There is a deff difference between a vented gas tube and no gas tube at all.

Yes. The difference is that a rifle with no gas tube may not funnel the piston head back into the gas block. So, while it will eject and (mostly/almost) chamber a new round, it may not reliably cycle.

I'll plan to test this personally. Maybe even take a video if I can.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

http://ultimak.com/ShortGasTube.htm

O.k. Found a different video from the one I had seen, but this should conclusively settle the issue.

And a quote from the vid (after the successful demonstration), "The gas tube is not a gas tube. It is a piston guide and a blast shield."

-Sam

 

[armoredman]

Nifty, I didn't know that.

 

[Sotuh11325]

I believe my Ruger 44 carbine just uses the very initial blast from the gas block to cycle it's action. It doesn't have a cylinder like the AK 47 does in standard form. So I'm willing to bet that Nalioth is correct in that it probably would cycle.

 

[Roadwild17]

Humm.. very interesting. I will still use the gas tube, but I stand corrected. "walks away from discussing with tail tucked between legs."

 

[Girodin]

I will tell you all right now that if you argue with Nalioth about matters concerning AK platform rifles, you are most likely wrong. He know a great deal about them and I have come to put a lot of faith in what he says regarding them.

As has been stated there is video of one being fired sans gas tube.

 

[RP88]

you won't lose your fingers, but you won't be making your own sandwiches for awhile until the burns heal.

 

[ny32182]

If you intend to try it, I'd wear the biggest set of safety googles you can find if you plan to do it with your face behind the rear sight. The gas tube doesn't appear to contain serious pressure, but I guarantee it keeps hot gas from venting straight back...

 

[SaMx]

http://ultimak.com/ShortGasTube.htm

O.k. Found a different video from the one I had seen, but this should conclusively settle the issue.

And a quote from the vid (after the successful demonstration), "The gas tube is not a gas tube. It is a piston guide and a blast shield."

-Sam

well that should settle it. the AK is a short stroke gas piston. The piston is only pressurized for a fraction of an inch, and the rest of the cycle it's just operating on momentum.