AK's; Yugo? Saiga? Confused.

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k831

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I've lurked here a bit, and found lots of very useful information. I'm sorry to bring up a topic that has been discussed ad-nauseum, (AK questions) but I'm afraid I have too.

I have been wanting to add an AK to the collection. I have read a lot of threads on a lot of forums, including this one, and I believe an AK would be fun, and fill a certain role better than a lot of other rifles. However, when one starts looking into buying one, information becomes convoluted pretty fast... Romanian? Bulgarian? Egyptian? Yugoslavian? Sar... WASR...991...992... Conversion...?? Parts kits? Refurbished? New? Ahhhhhh! You get the point.

I had decided on buying a Saiga and doing the conversion myself. I am comfortable with the work that needs to be done, and the parts I need.

I was at the gunshow yesterday, looking for one and the AK guy who is always there had several. Right next to the 16" 7.62 Saiga that I wanted was a Yugo underfolder. Having heard pretty good things about them I picked it up. Right away he said "feels pretty good right?" I said "what do you mean?" and he proceeded to tell me how it was a far better AK than a Saiga, that he sells Saiga's to people that really want them but that they are not a military gun, are pretty cheap, and are not tough like the other AK's (broken bolts etc) conversion or not. I was under the impression that inside a Saiga was an AK - no big difference other than the sporting stock, mags etc. He assured me that while the Saiga was built on Kalashnikov's design, it wasn't milspec, and used weaker, cheaper parts. Well, I like the idea of 250 dollar Saiga, converting it for 150 and having a top quality, new AK for 400-500. If that isn't what a Saiga is, then I'm not so interested.

I've also been told that a Saiga is about the only way to get actual "new parts" and that most of the other options are used kits, and you never really know what your gonna get. Sounds fun.

I've heard Vectors from Atlantic Arms are great, or a gun From Arsenal. I get on those sites and don't have a clue what is what. I've heard that http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/ does an excellent job, and have also been told that right now Yugo M70's are the only way to go. I want an AK, but not at the price of an AR, XCR, Sig 556 etc... Where are the solid, quality 400-500 dollar AK's....

Sorry guys, I thought I had this worked out. But those guys had such different info that I felt "back at square one"...
 
The man who you talked to at the gun show has his head stuck up his you-know-what. Some do claim that Saigas use low-quality parts, but there's no way to tell really; it doesn't matter anyway, because Romanian WASRs use sub-mil-spec parts and run perfectly fine (most problems are caused by the monkeys at Century goofing something up). Also, Saigas have a reputation for being among the most accurate AKs available on the US market, especially for the price.
 
that person has absolutely no idea what he is talking about on Saigas; they are built in the origional factory that the origional ak's were made. their parts are as thick, tough, and hardy as any other part you could look at, the only diff is it is a stamped receiver, which most are made that way anyway. And their bbl making process is far better than most ak's out there; a nice cold pour steel, hammer forged , chrome lined bbl, which is quite accurate, really. I don't even bother to scope mine any more, I can hit literally anything I want , out to 100 yds, with the open sites, and i am talking down to the ground squirrel.
 
Good to hear, and thanks for the replies. I'll just go forward with the Saiga purchase and conversion. I was just a little worried when he assured me that a Saiga could never handle "battle conditions".
 
he sells Saiga's to people that really want them but that they are not a military gun, are pretty cheap, and are not tough like the other AK's
Click to expand...

LOL that's pretty cute.:rolleyes:


I'm not telling you not to get a yugo underfolder, I love mine(just purchased it recently), but to say a Saiga is anything but quality is not an accurate statement.
 
Well, I liked the Yugo, but the Saiga was what I had already decided on. He was pointing me toward the Yugo, saying it would be far more durable than the Saiga.

Unrealistic or not, when ya buy a gun like this, part of the reason (at least for me) is to be prepared incase the political and social climate changes such that you find yourself in "battle conditions" - You want to know the rifle can handle the conditions. It was clearly his opinion that Yugo could, and the Saiga could not.
 
I suppose the Weiger clone, which is made in the Cugir plant in Romania, called the stg-2000 , is no good either. even though it is made just like a romanian ak, then brought to America, and has diff furniture put on it.
Literally, the only diff will be the furniture. and that goes for Saigas as well, allthough , I do think they do a very nice job on the receiver, and the bbl for that matter.
 
I own a 3 Saigas and my buddy owns a Yugo underfolder. They're all nice AK's. The Saigas have chromed barrels the Yugo doesn't. The Yugo uses a thicker receiver and has a lot of non standard parts. They're both better than average when it comes to AK accuracy. They're both tough as nails. 7.62x39 Saigas have an odd chamber with a step at the base of the neck. It makes the fired cases look a little strange, but I've read you can still reload them just fine.

Either is a fine rifle.
 
No, it's a step in the neck of the actual chamber. It doesn't have anything to do with a bullet guide. If you look at the spent brass from a Saiga x39 you'll notice there is a bulge right where the neck meets the shoulder of the case. The Russians make the chamber this way because of some Russian law that says they have to have some way to identify whether the spent brass came from a military or civilian weapon.

S223's have a little bump on the bolt face surrounding the firing pin for the same reason. Only S308's seem to have escaped these weird Russian laws.
 
Thanks for all the reply's guys. The friend who recommended this site also posted my question on some other forums... all the responses are coming back similar. I'll go forward with my conversion. Thanks.
 
"Get a Saiga with a Dimpled + Y receiver... it's a friggin military receiver!"

Where? I haven't seen them at the gun shops around here.

Also, what are the recommended parts. The G2 trigger group seems like the standard. I like the Tapco saw grip, and from those I have seen I like the ACE side folder. I need a bullet guide (which I noticed can be found on your Dinzag site) what else is needed, and where is the best shopping?
 
It seems MD Willington is putting the needle in the haystack.

On the Saiga assembly lines, when they run out of slabsided civilian receivers, they sometimes borrow from the military assembly line and just don't finish the receiver to military configuration..

They are rare and sought after because they have cosmetic differences.

Function is absolutely the same, though.
 
I actually don't care that much for the G2 trigger. My advice would be to spend the extra $40 and get an RSA trigger instead. The Ace side folder is a nice stock, but I like it much more in it's open position than in it's folded state. It's comfortable, solid, lightweight and looks good, but when you fold it the hinge makes it stick out farther away from the side of the receiver than it should. There is a gap of about 1/2 to 2/3 of an inch between the receiver and the folded stock and I can't help but think that if they had designed the hinge better that the stock would fold up right alongside the receiver.

I'm not sure why they did it like they did. It does enable you to attach the stock so that it folds to the left side and clears your optics, but this is somewhat foolish, since if you use optics and attach the stock in this manner the hinge will prevent you from removing your optics.
 
Elmer, what stock would you suggest? What other parts suggestions? I want to do a bang up job, not ridiculously expensive, but doesn't have to be bottom of the barrel cheap either.
 
If you want a folder the Ace stock is very nice. So are the Russian triangle and solid folders. The Russian stocks fold to the left side and the solid folder has a recess to accomodate the optics rail. Unfortunately however, you can't fold the Russian stocks unless you remove the optics and none of them are cheap. I'd probably go with the Ace stock. I've got one on my 308 and except for the gap between the stock and receiver when folded, I like it very much.

For a solid stock I really like the looks of Ironwood designs or you could see if BattlerifleG3 over on Saiga12.com is doing any. I think Ironwood charges about $100 for a complete furniture set in Walnut, but it comes unfinished. To attach the handguards you will need a new gas tube and an adapter, (I think Dinzag sells those for around $80). So when alls said and done, you're looking at about the same cost as a good folder.

As far as cheaper stocks go, Romanian folders have a reputation for being very solid. They are around $50. I personally find them to be just too darn ugly.

Tapco folders are very cheap and IMO they actually work pretty well. Unfortunately, they really look bad. If you look around, you can find them for as little as $30, but to me they just seem to make an otherwise nice rifle look like a turd. I've got one on my S223 however and I really can't fault it's function. There's a little bit of flex up and down, but I haven't found that it affects shootability at all.

What I'd really like to do sometime is make a walnut folding stock using an Ace hinge and cut the tang receiver block and a walnut stock with a contour similar to that of an AR15.
 
elmerfudd said:
The Ace side folder is a nice stock, but I like it much more in it's open position than in it's folded state. It's comfortable, solid, lightweight and looks good, but when you fold it the hinge makes it stick out farther away from the side of the receiver than it should. There is a gap of about 1/2 to 2/3 of an inch between the receiver and the folded stock and I can't help but think that if they had designed the hinge better that the stock would fold up right alongside the receiver.

I'm not sure why they did it like they did. It does enable you to attach the stock so that it folds to the left side and clears your optics, but this is somewhat foolish, since if you use optics and attach the stock in this manner the hinge will prevent you from removing your optics.
Click to expand...

The ACE hinge mechanism can be mounted so the stock folds to whatever side is convenient for you.
 
Well, if you don't want to install a bullet guide, Sure Fire Mags makes mags for the rifles in a variety of different capacities (5, 10, 15, 20, and 30 for the .223 and 20 and 25 for the .308; not sure about the 7.62x39 besides the 30-round model), and FBMG makes 20-rounders for the .308; all options are on the pricey side, but both companies put out good products from what I hear (Sure Fires are supposed to fit pretty tightly, though). You can also buy 7.62x39 Thermold AK mags for $12 from CDNN or $11 from Centerfire Systems, and with some dremel for for a couple minutes, they'll work in a totally unmodded Saiga, although I hear that they sometimes won't feed the last round if you load them all the way up. I know someone was also modifying G3 mags ffor the .308 and they were working pretty well, although I haven't heard about them for a while. Just remember that if you use an American mag in a stock Saiga, you'll need one more compliance part ot keep it legal. The handguard or gas tube would probably be most convenient to replace, but if you want to improve functionality, you may opt for one of Dinzag's modified Tapco G2 FCGs for the stock guns, which really improve the trigger.

If you do opt to install a bullet guide, you can use any AK mag you want in the 7.62x39, although I think you'll have to modify the mag catch. For the .223, you can modify Galil and Weiger magazines with a Dremel for a couple minutes and they'll function flawlessly.
 
Basically anything not made in the US. Any country of origin, any material (steel, polymer) should work as long as you stay away from the Pro-Mags. Some use them with no real problems but many have reported feeding and durability issues.

That said, my favorites are the 30rd Bulgarian waffle mags and Hungarian 20rd mags. I have 10 of each in my collection.

ETA:
If you are going to go through the work involved in a Saiga conversion, don't half a$$ it. Install the bullet guide. When done properly, your rifle will function with any mil-spec ak mag. Without it you are stuck using dedicated and expensive mags.
 
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