Alabama big cat

[Alagator]

For all you who have seen the big dark cats-- google image up "jaguarundi" and see if the dark phase version looks like what you have seen. I caught a quick glimpse of one a couple of years ago in Bullock County, Alabama. One of my hunting buddies got a much better view last year, and a couple of weeks ago I saw a game camera pic of one from adjacent Montgomery County. Juguarundis are a lot larger than housecats, but a whole lot smaller (half or more) than a cougar. They are native to Central America and found north to Texas border areas. The ones in Alabama may have migrated, or may have come from the illegal pet trade. South Florida has a population that probably derives from releases. Another name for them is otter cat because they are muscular but low to the ground like an otter. They love to feed on ground nesting birds and raid jungle villages for chickens. They are also reported to be fond of fishing. A lot of this fits the "black panther" sightings that are on the increase in Alabama. People also said we were wrong about black coyotes, until we started shooting them. I surely don't advocate shooting a big cat just to prove a point. I would much rather just know that the forest is a place with more mystery than we appreciate.

 

[Mitch from LA]

The jaguarundi tops out at about 10lbs, so still a small animal. Most of the guys that claim they've seen a black mystery cat say it's bigger than a bobcat. However it is quite easy to make that mistake when you see something at glance.

It is highly unlikely that jaguarundis migrated from TX or FL and decided to set up shop in Alabama (this would require an incredibly large feral population) but releases and escapes do happen, so maybe there's something to your theory.

Perhaps it was before my time, but I've never heard of a biologist who was skeptical about black coyotes.

 

[Alagator]

I'm finding info that has the upper end weight at about 20 pounds. http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Puma_yagouaroundi.html
The long tail is probably the biggest source of confusion-- If you are not sure of the distance a close one could look big, and the tail rules out bobcat-- so "black panther" just jumps right into your head.
I should have been more explicit about the black coyote skepticism- I got it from other hunting buddies years ago. Now almost everyone I hunt with has seen some of the dark ones. On the jaguarundis,I agree, release/escape is a much more likely scenario than range expansion. I know idiots who have released all sorts of exotics, including half-grown African lions. Alabama probably has enough prey for jaguarundis, but it does get a lot colder than Central America. If fur prices were high and we were all trapping again, this mystery would be solved pretty quickly.

 

[Mitch from LA]

You could very well be right on the weight (Animal Diversity web is usually pretty solid). Most mammals also follow Bergman's rule as well, which means populations further from the equator attain a larger body size. So in theory, Jaguarundis in Alabama would be toward the upper limit of the size range.

I agree morons are always releasing critters into the woods once they get sick of them. I caught a California Kingsnake in my wife's (fiance at the time) backyard in Louisiana once.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Jaguarundi

I was ready to dismiss the jaguarundi theory until I googled up some pics. While the head and face aren't exactly the same as what I saw,this picture is pretty darn close. Twenty pounds maybe a little more would be about right as well. Thanks for offerring this possibility.

 

[Flintknapper]

Escaped jaguarundi is at least “plausible”, but still a stretch unless limited to very localized sightings.

Even if someone were to prove the existence of one somewhere in Alabama, it would not account for the other claimed sightings…. literally nationwide.



Jaguarundi are also fairly small, but the long tail is prominent enough to notice.

I have never heard of Black (Melanistic) Coyotes being contested anywhere, they absolutely exist and quite a few have been taken by hunters. The pictures back that up.

And lest anyone think I am skeptical on whole… about melanistic phase mammals, I assure you I am not.

Here is a little Black Fox Squirrel I raised.




They are not unusual in the part of Texas I live in, but I would never point to this as proof of Black Panthers.

 

[Mitch from LA]

Just a note about the Fox Squirrel (and I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck). Because the hairs are banded it is dark agouti and not truly melanistic. True melanistic fox squirrels have entirely black hair.

No big deal, just always thought that was interesting.

 

[hardluk1]

The difference between the little south american kitty and anything relateing to a pather are as compairible as a short legged beagal and a american walker hound. A south florida pather is of the smaller big cats and it still runs around 80lbs + and even a yearling panther will push 50+lbs but be 4 foor of body with a 3' tail and still looks like a big a** cat. Now a wet brown panther/mountain lion can look pretty darn dark at times. It could be possible that a young mountian lion has been pushed out and found it self in northern ala i guess andbe passing thru. They have been seen in the mountians of NC but no proof of them stay'n around. South florida's big cat have some new blood from texas cats mixed in to help out with a small gene pool of cats and are now up to a couple hundred cats now. Ever seen a 25lb+ main coon cat?? can look like one whopper of a cat in the wild.

flintknapper My last home in florida had a large group of fox squirrels, colors ran from blond, brown. saddle backs along with many different mixed colors and a couple black and silver to all black. Not a blended colors on some but like it was two very different colors on one squirrel.
Hunting around mid alabama from Claton to Eufalla and geogia around georgetown areathe yoti's and coydogs could real be thick at times. Man many many around those areas. That was around 15 years and hunted there for around 12 years. You could see ever mix and solid color of coydogs you could imagine.

 

[CSA 357]

The black squirrels we used to kill in the ms delta were alot blacker than that, you could see them in them big oaks shinning in the sun alot of fun, just about every one would be red or black, they said the black ones were a color phase of the reds?

 

[Flintknapper]

Yeah,

We have truly black fox squirrels here. The grizzled color of the one I posted is his baby fur...he got much darker...but not completely black. He also retained some brown color inside his ears and around his eyes, so it is incorrect for me to call him truly melanistic.

But the point being, I readily accept "variations" in colors of many mammals, I just like to see them substantiated.

To date, the Black Cougar aka. Black Panther has not been.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

To date, the Black Cougar aka. Black Panther has not been.

That isn't being debated. Any long tailed wildcat is locally known as a "panther" and isn't exclusive to cougars. Some MAY be bobcat/feral cat crosses. There are far too may sightings over too large an area to be single releases of pets or cougar cubs passing through.

 

[McCall911]

Here's an interesting page about the Florida jaguarundi.
There is also a video of the animal.

http://www.t4studios.com/thefloridajaguarundi.html

 

[Flintknapper]

Jimmyraythomason wrote:

Any long tailed wildcat is locally known as a "panther" and isn't exclusive to cougars.

How many kinds of long tailed wildcats do you have in Alabama?

I think I remember you making reference to that colloquialism in another thread, so I am forced to accept it, but it makes about as much sense as calling all wild canines (Coyote, Red fox, Grey fox, Coydog) a Wolf.

There is a distinction.

It makes hard to get on the “same page”….so I have to ask:

In Alabama, what are the possible candidates for “Black Panther” or “Large Black Wildcat”?

Some MAY be bobcat/feral cat crosses.

O.K. show me one of those, or some credible source for that notion. We can come up with hundreds of “maybes”.

There are far too may sightings over too large an area to be single releases of pets or cougar cubs passing through.

I agree, and that is actually the thrust of my argument. IF these MANY sightings (over large areas) are to be believed, then one of two things must be at play.

1. A fairly large number of these animals exist (enough to constitute a healthy, breeding population).

2. A small number of these animals exist, but they travel like nobody’s business!

If we choose number one, then it would make sense that someone, somewhere….would have a picture, a video, a roadkill, a hide, skull or something tangible. But we don’t.

If we choose number two, then I am at a loss to understand how they could continue to survive beyond one generation. In order to do so…they would have to travel as mating pairs or find other felines… suitable to cross breed with. I don’t know of anyone making that claim.

It just doesn’t add up, but I will be the first to come back here “hat in hand” offering my profuse apologies, if someone comes up with anything concrete.

 

[Mitch from LA]

Jimmyraythomason wrote:



How many kinds of long tailed wildcats do you have in Alabama?

I think I remember you making reference to that colloquialism in another thread, so I am forced to accept it, but it makes about as much sense as calling all wild canines (Coyote, Red fox, Grey fox, Coydog) a Wolf.

There is a distinction.

It makes hard to get on the “same page”….so I have to ask:

In Alabama, what are the possible candidates for “Black Panther” or “Large Black Wildcat”?



O.K. show me one of those, or some credible source for that notion. We can come up with hundreds of “maybes”.




I agree, and that is actually the thrust of my argument. IF these MANY sightings (over large areas) are to be believed, then one of two things must be at play.

1. A fairly large number of these animals exist (enough to constitute a healthy, breeding population).

2. A small number of these animals exist, but they travel like nobody’s business!

If we choose number one, then it would make sense that someone, somewhere….would have a picture, a video, a roadkill, a hide, skull or something tangible. But we don’t.

If we choose number two, then I am at a loss to understand how they could continue to survive beyond one generation. In order to do so…they would have to travel as mating pairs or find other felines… suitable to cross breed with. I don’t know of anyone making that claim.

It just doesn’t add up, but I will be the first to come back here “hat in hand” offering my profuse apologies, if someone comes up with anything concrete.

I'd say that sums up my opinion as well. I will also gladly offer an apology as soon as someone presents some hard evidence.

I can't speak to Alabama, but elsewhere in the Southeast the only native, long-tailed cat that could potentially be around is Puma concolor (cougar, puma, panther, mountain lion, etc.) and most of those have been extirpated.

 

[McCall911]

How many kinds of long tailed wildcats do you have in Alabama?

I would guess the ones that aren't bobcats. The ones that aren't "supposed" to be here.

Taken in 1948, the animal in the photo at the bottom of the page below was shot within about two miles of where I now live in east central Alabama. (I was surprised to find it on the Internet!)

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/Cougar-Alabama's Native Lion.htm

 

[ironhead7544]

I saw one in GA just north of the FL line on RT 27. Must have been 150 lbs or so and looked very well fed. The guy in front of me almost ran off the road. Theres a dump right near there. Its about 20 miles north of Tallahassee. I didnt say anything because I didnt want people to think I was crazy. Found out later that a lot of people have seen it. Theres plenty of deer and small game around here to keep one fed.

 

[Flintknapper]

McCall911 wrote:

I would guess the ones that aren't bobcats. The ones that aren't "supposed" to be here.

I don’t what you mean by not “supposed” to be here. Alabama (and ALL the Southern States) are historical habitat for the Cougar. They ARE supposed to be there, it’s just that changes in the habitat and the encroachment of man (if we can call it that), has displaced them.

The article you cited… very clearly states, the Cougar was once common in Alabama. It goes on to allow for occasional sightings as the result of a transient cat or two.

So, I am COMPLETELY fine with the idea of Cougars in Alabama. IF that is your only offering….then we need to move the discussion back to the “Black/Dark/Melanistic” part.

From the same article you provided:

"It is interesting to speculate about how the legendary "black" panther of the South came into our collective folklore but the fact remains that never in recorded history has a truly black cougar been photographed, captured, killed or otherwise factually documented."

Taken in 1948, the animal in the photo at the bottom of the page below was shot within about two miles of where I now live in east central Alabama. (I was surprised to find it on the Internet!)

Yes, and…. another documented Cougar in 1956 and a documented track in 1961 (different parts of the State). So we have empirical evidence of Cougars traveling through or inhabiting Alabama, no big surprise.

Where the rub exists….is when people try to make them into “Black Panthers”. You will note in the photo you provided, the cat is conspicuously light/tawny colored.

Those wishing to support the idea of Large Black Longtailed Cats in the U.S. almost always use the same tactic. First… they attempt to discredit their local Fish and Game officials (or biologists) by saying the agency refuses to recognize the existence of a certain animal within the State.

This is rarely the case, more often it has been stated that the animal in question is extremely rare, but folks just take that and run with it.


Next, when one of the “known species” of animal pops up (rare…but in existence), the dissenters point to this and gleefully exclaim: “See…we were right, if the F&G was wrong about this, they could be wrong about the Black Panther”.

That’s a pretty weak argument and one fabricated in such a way that logic gets left completely out. That is my opinion of course.

 

[Mitch from LA]

Amen. People are generally willing to accept the opinion of their local fish and game agency. They believe that "they saw what they saw" and it couldn't possibly be anything else.

As someone who's answered a few calls from private citizens regarding local wildlife, I've seen this first hand. As I've said before novices frequently mis-ID species, size, color, and host of other characteristics. Then someone with a degree and experience in this area comes along and tells them something they do not want to hear, and they disregard his/her opinion.

Fish and Game officials are right far more often than they are wrong.

 

[McCall911]

By "supposed" I mean that there seems to be conflicting notions from experts about whether we actually even have cougars. For instance, it's stated at the end of this article

http://www.outdooralabama.com/oaonline/panthers08.cfm

(pertinent statement bolded by me):

PHOTOS: (courtesy of U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service) The Florida Panther, top photo, may have once roamed Alabama, but no evidence of the big cat has been substantiated since the 1940s.

(I presume they mean the 1948 photo from the previous link I posted.)

So it's really hard to know which experts to believe about cougars. Much less the possibility that there might be large black cats.

What I think is the real rub is the condescending attitude from certain experts that people who've had sightings seem to receive. At least, that's what bugs me.

As for me, I'll just join the unwashed masses and say, concerning large black cats: "I just don't know. I've never seen one. But I've heard stories..."

 

[Flintknapper]

McCall911 wrote:

What I think is the real rub is the condescending attitude from certain experts that people who've had sightings seem to receive. At least, that's what bugs me.

Well….I certainly support that sentiment. (dislike of condescension)

I can understand how wildlife officials would grow weary of chasing after reports not likely to yield any evidence, BUT in no way should they be curt, condescending or disrespectful when performing their duties.

The bottom line is: In most places that Cougars are known to exist (even if infrequently), the Fish & Wildlife Dept is actually aware of it.

They simply play it down because they don’t want to be out investigating every report of something black….that crossed the highway, or a “scream in the night”. Also, budgetary constraints...just don't allow for it.



Give a wildlife official something more convincing (an obvious track, a photo, scat, a hide, a partially buried kill, a skull, etc) and you’ll get an immediate response. They will be MOST interested in following up on that kind of thing.

 

[BigMustard]

Could it be a long haired chupacabra?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I can understand how wildlife officials would grow weary of chasing after reports not likely to yield any evidence,

I could too....if they actually chased after them but they don't. They just give the "mistaken identity" mantra and dismiss all reported sightings as such. They don't even send out anyone to investigate.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Well,I'm not surprised to see this thread reach the same stalemate as all the others.

 

[McCall911]

I could too....if they actually chased after them but they don't. They just give the "mistaken identity" mantra and dismiss all reported sightings as such. They don't even send out anyone to investigate.

Amen!
I'm at the point if I actually saw one, I'd likely just keep it to myself. Even if I took a photo. Likely the photo wouldn't be very good anyway because many wild animals, especially wildcats, don't exactly pose to have their picture taken. Also I'm not a good photographer and would likely be pretty excited. In addition there's the photoshopping thing, which I don't even know how to do and don't care to. "Hmpf! Anyone could photoshop a picture of a black leopard into the picture of a Southern forest." Yeah, okay.

I could probably shoot one, of course, but why should I do that just to prove that they exist? I don't see any moral reason to kill an animal just to show it. Especially an animal that might be rare. Like, yes, a black panther.
After all, this is a only a possible wildcat we're talking about. It's not like anyone is claiming sightings of a pair of pink elephants dancing on top of a UFO! If someone claims a sighting of a large black cat, they might be mistaken, yes. But I think there's equally the possibility that they really saw what they saw.

 

[frankenstein406]

Many exotic "pets" commonly escape at airports mainly Florida. Lots of times snipers are hired and animals are shot on site. Wouldn't be uncommon for animals to travel long distances.