Albany, NY Gun Registry Proposal

[Prof. A. Wickwire]

Apparently Mayor Jennings and Alderman Scalzo are unfamiliar with the process of purchasing a handgun in their fair city.

The process (at least as of 9/2005) is as follows: First you pay for the handgun from a licensed dealer but you are not allowed to take possession until your pistol license is amended. In order to get an amendment in the city of Albany you must fill out and submit an amendment application form to the County Clerk's office. After about two weeks you get a letter telling you to appear before a judge in City Court. Your court date is usually a week to 10 days after the receipt of the letter. On the appointed date you appear before the judge and your amendment application is either approved or denied. After about two more weeks you get the approval letter in the mail and can pick up your amendment from the County Clerk's office. Once you have your amendment coupon you go back to the licensed dealer and fill out the federal form and wait for the NICS check.

Yet, somehow, with all of this oversight from the county and the city

"The intent of the legislation is to give the police chief knowledge of who possesses a handgun in the city of Albany,"

Why doesn't the police chief simply get a report from the County Clerk's office? According to NYS law, this information is a matter of public record.

I also liked the dig at law abiding gun owners.

Alderman James Scalzo, who introduced the law, said it is needed to help track gun crime.

"Honest, law-abiding people should be able to have handguns but they should be registered with the chief of police."

Any NYS residents, especially in the city of Albany should contact their Aldermen and representatives on this matter.

Sincerely,

Prof. A. Wickwire

Times Union

Albany gun registry proposed by Jennings
Law, already drawing criticism, would also require safety devices

By TIM O'BRIEN, Staff writer
Click byline for more stories by writer.
First published: Thursday, April 5, 2007

ALBANY -- If you buy a gun in Albany, Mayor Jerry Jennings wants the police chief to know within 24 hours.

A gun-control law he proposed Wednesday drew immediate fire from critics who said the legislation would only affect law-abiding gun owners without reducing crime. It quickly became a hot topic on a live Web cast on the National Rifle Association's Web site.

"I can walk into a show and buy as many guns as I like," Jennings said. "It's really a built-in accountability system. We can work more effectively to reduce gun violence in the city."

Before putting the bill together, Jennings said, his administration examined similar laws in New York City, Chicago and other cities.

Under the law, everyone who sells weapons would need a dealer license approved by the police chief. All handguns would require safety devices to make them childproof. Pellet guns would need to have orange plugs, making them easily distinguishable from handguns. Sale of common kinds of ammunition would be prohibited.

Paint pellet guns could be used at licensed amusement centers but not sold in the city.

Violating the law would be a misdemeanor carrying a fine of between $100 and $500 for each offense.

But speakers at the Common Council meeting said the law would only affect law-abiding citizens.

"I think that it's feel-good legislation," said Thomas King, president of the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association, who questioned the proposal's effectiveness in deterring crime.

Albany resident Kevin Jones said the law, if passed, would prove unconstitutional.

"Other than an outright prohibition, this is the strictest legislation I've ever seen," he said.

Michael Hay of Albany said guns are needed to protect his family.

"I can't, for the life of me, see why anyone would give a free pass to people's houses," he said. "The criminal element has no idea whether there is a firearm behind that door. If this ordinance is passed, they'll have a free pass to break in."

Alderman James Scalzo, who introduced the law, said it is needed to help track gun crime.

"The intent of the legislation is to give the police chief knowledge of who possesses a handgun in the city of Albany," he said. "Honest, law-abiding people should be able to have handguns but they should be registered with the chief of police."

The proposed ordinance heads to the council's Law Committee, where Scalzo said it will get an open, public review. "We will tweak it to make everyone happy," he said.

Alderman Corey Ellis said the law made no sense to him and was not accompanied by any facts about gun use in the city.

"The mayor puts out this legislation with no facts and no figures on how this is going to affect illegal guns," he said. "It doesn't even scratch the surface of the issue."

O'Brien can be reached at 454-5096 or by e-mail at [email protected].

 

[scurtis_34471]

You have to go to court to buy a handgun?!?!

That's insane. I am so glad I don't live in PRNY.

 

[Prof. A. Wickwire]

I sent a letter to the editor of the Times Union basically quoting myself above

Apparently Mayor Jennings and Alderman Scalzo are unfamiliar with purchasing a handgun in Albany.

The process (as of 9/2005) is as follows: First you buy the handgun from a licensed dealer, but you are not allowed to take possession until your pistol license is amended. In order to get an amendment you must submit an amendment application to the County Clerk's office. After about two weeks you are informed to appear before a judge in City Court. Your court date is usually a week or two later. On the appointed date you appear before the judge and your amendment application is either approved or denied. After about another week or two you get the approval letter in the mail and can pick up your amendment coupon from the County Clerk's office. Once you have your amendment coupon you go back to the licensed dealer where you fill out the federal purchase form and the dealer calls NICS for the federal instant check.

With all this oversight, how is it possible that the Albany police chief does not have “knowledge of who possesses a handgun in the city of Albany?”

Needless to say, criminals do not have to go through this process.

Things in New York State are bad enough when it comes to gun laws. We can't start to turn things back until and unless we change attitudes. The best way to do that is education and example.

Sincerely,

Prof. A. WIckwire

 

[K-Romulus]

more info

You Albany guys need to straighten your Police Chief out!

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=578459

Albany rethinks proposed gun measure
Police chief says city will take another look at plan to cut illegal weapons after hearing criticism

By TIM O'BRIEN, Staff writer
Click byline for more stories by writer.
First published: Friday, April 6, 2007

ALBANY -- The city may change a proposed gun-control law, just one day after Mayor Jerry Jennings touted it as a crime deterrent.

"What we're trying to do is look to see if we can prevent illegal guns from coming into Albany," Police Chief James Tuffey said Thursday. "The corporation counsel is going to take a second look at the legislation. The mayor's office has received a number of calls. Some valid questions were raised by groups."

The mayor's gun-control proposal is drawing heavy fire from gun owners who say it adds another layer of bureaucracy to an already burdensome process. It can take a year to get a handgun in the city already. Applicants are required to be fingerprinted and undergo a check of both criminal and mental-health history. A City Court judge then decides whether to grant the permit, often after questioning the applicant in person.

Records of the permits are then filed at the county clerk's office.

Clerk Thomas Clingan said he can readily produce permits from the past 20 years if the chief asked.

"We would probably be able to provide them without too much trouble for the ones that have been automated for the past 20-plus years," he said.

The state law on applying for permits originated in the 1930s, Clingan said: "In those early days, there are very few records of who has them."

Clingan said the permit records were computerized in the 1980s, and he can readily produce permits from then until today. Prior to that, the records are on file but not easily accessible.

Permits are granted for a lifetime, although a permit holder must apply for an amendment when buying a new gun.

And while the proposed law seeks to license gun dealers in the city, those who sell weapons already must get a federal or state license depending on the weapon -- and there are no gun stores in Albany.

"If he's looking for handguns, they are already registered," said Jim Frampton, a manager at J&J Outdoor Sports in Guilderland. "There are no gun dealers in the city of Albany. We are all outside the city. There is a ton of stuff in place right now."

Former gun shop owner Richard Ott said Jennings' remark that the mayor could "walk into a show and buy as many guns as I like" is untrue.

"You can't buy more than one handgun because it's illegal," he said. "Obviously, they are doing it as a political deal to make people feel safer."

Heather Orth, a spokeswoman for District Attorney David Soares, said none of the gun crimes the office prosecuted last year involved a weapon legally registered in New York state.

"Last year, our office prosecuted 71 gun crimes. There are still a lot more that are still open from 2006," she said.

But Tuffey said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot legally share information with police that would enable them to trace a gun's history, he said.

"It prevents state, cities and police from accessing ATF data," he said. "That information used to be available up to 2000."

And while there are no gun stores in Albany, Tuffey said people have federal firearms licenses who can sell weapons.

O'Brien can be reached at 454-5096 or by e-mail at [email protected].

1) There is no bar to BATFE sharing its trace data for law enforcement purposes
2) FFL's must have a local business license

And here is an (interesting) editorial opposing the registration scheme:

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=578500&category=OPINION&newsdate=4/6/2007

City is just shooting itself in the foot with gun registry idea

First published: Friday, April 6, 2007

What are they smoking down in Albany City Hall? It's making them wacky.

Mayor Jerry Jennings has proposed a piece of purported gun-control legislation for his city -- a new handgun registry that is breathtakingly useless because it duplicates existing laws and practices, which are working just fine.

Although, what he has in mind will seriously irritate and inconvenience law-abiding Albanians who own handguns by adding another set of bureaucratic requirements, and penalties for misstepping. That's what has me wondering about the motive here, because I can't see anything worthwhile coming out of this for the mayor or the people of the city. of all, the new law, which talks a good game, won't do a thing to curb illegal hand-gun crimes -- which is its heralded intent.

What the law would do is create a new registry for every handgun in the city, filed with the city's chief of police. In addition, any handgun bought or sold -- by a city resident or dealer -- would first require a license from the police department.

"The intent of the legislation is to give the police chief knowledge of who possesses a handgun in the city of Albany," City Council Member Jimmy Scalzo said when he introduced the legislation to the Common Council Wednesday. "Honest, law-abiding people should be able to have handguns but they should be registered with the chief of police."

But why? We already know who owns every legal handgun in the city of Albany, and in the rest of the county, and in every other county in New York, for that matter. Right now, every legal handgun owned by any Albanian is registered by serial number in the Albany County clerk's office. Every one, without exception; otherwise, it is an illegal gun. That same registry is in State Police computers, and can be easily tapped into should a serial number show up on a gun used in a crime.

We, at the newspaper, obtained from a reluctant State Police the complete state database as well. So it is not top secret. I'm reasonably sure the Albany police chief would have no trouble getting the Albany City data if he wanted it.

So there's no need for another registry. Besides, locally owned legal handguns don't show up crimes. They simply don't. The overwhelming majority of illegal handguns that show up in troubled city neighborhoods in Albany and elsewhere upstate come up the pipeline from New York City -- which has the most stringent handgun laws in the country -- and before that, from lax dealers and compliant sellers in Pennsylvania, Virginia and a number of other southern states. Down there is the source of the problem, not legal gun owners in Albany.

As for the need to watch over Albanians buying and selling legal handguns, we already have tough laws covering that. They are seamless and they work. Every legal handgun transaction, person to person or through a dealer, first requires identifying paperwork between county clerks.

Once the designated gun control officer in the county clerk's office registering the new handgun is satisfied, and only then, can the new owner physically acquire the gun from the old owner. Any dealer is federally licensed anyway, and has to keep up-to-the-minute books on every transaction to satisfy frequent inspections by agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Which is a moot point for Albany because there does not exist a single retail handgun dealer in the city.

So. What does that leave for the mayor's wacky idea? Not much. The ordinance would require handguns to have safety devices to make them child-proof, and pellet guns would need orange plugs on them so they are not misidentified as firearms. Appropriate, but niggling stuff hardly worthy of an ordinance.

I feel compelled at this juncture to reveal that, yes, I am a handgun owner, although not in the city of Albany anymore. I also have been a staunch defender of New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg's efforts to rid his city of illegal handguns by targetting sting operations at out-of-state gun dealerships. Mayor Jennings is to be applauded for joining that effort.

But this piece of lousy legislation, which was modeled after a city of Chicago ordinance, is a wild stab in the wrong direction and at the wrong people.

Somebody in the city's law department did not do his homework. Because on the merits, this proposed ordinance doesn't have any.

LeBrun can be reached at 454-5453 or by e-mail at [email protected].

 

[Mazeman]

Makes me appreciate NH.

Here, if you're a resident and you want a handgun, you go into a store and buy one. Walk out with it the same visit. You just fill out the fed form, get an instant background check, and pay. No prior licesing, fingerprinting, training, etc.

I grew up in Buffalo, NY, and am occasionally tempted to move back, but when I hear stories like this it reminds me why I should avoid the state like the plague.

 

[SWMAN]

By the time New York gets done passing all the silly gun control laws they can think of to pass, they'll only be cops and robbers left with guns, and guess who will be next to have their guns taken away from them, and it won't be the robbers.

 

[davhina]

This is one of many reasons i am SO glad i no longer live in PRNY

Takes me less than an hour to purchase a handgun here in VA., and i can buy as many as I want.(In theory. Actually only as many as the wife will allow)

Going to court to be able to purchase a pistol?

 

[Matt King]

Stuff like this makes me glad that I am a Texan. While we don't have the greatest gun laws in the country, like some would make you believe; if a proposal like this was ever brought up in Texas it would die a quick death.

 

[CNYCacher]

just want to point out

Not ALL of NY is like this, in fact, not even most of NY is like this.

If you take NYC and the surrounding area as a seperate state, most of NY is almost shall issue.

Here is the procedure for buying a handgun in my county:
0. stop in to county clerk and get purchase coupon
1. present pistol license and coupon to store
2. fill out 4473
3. take gun home
4. inform the county clerk within 10 days


Is this ideal? No! Is it too restrictive? Yes! Is it anywhere near as bad as most people think? No!

Prof W, what can we do from the other side of the state?

 

[Prof. A. Wickwire]

Prof W, what can we do from the other side of the state?

CNYCacher,

In regards to this particular legislation, not a lot. I informed some City of Albany residents about this and we'll see what happens.

Overall, the best thing to do is join the NYS Rifle and Pistol Association, keep informed about upcoming legislation, and spread the word.

Sincerely,

Prof. A. Wickwire

 

[Prof. A. Wickwire]

Talking about spreading the word, I received a call form the Times Union yesterday...they want to print my letter! Perhaps some people who didn't know how complicated and convoluted the Pistol Licensing process in Albany is will speak up.

Unfortunately, the paper many not print my letter until next week. Many people will have forgotten about the proposed law by then.

Sincerely,

Prof. A. Wickwire

 

[Colt]

Here is the procedure for buying a handgun in my county:
0. stop in to county clerk and get purchase coupon
1. present pistol license and coupon to store
2. fill out 4473
3. take gun home
4. inform the county clerk within 10 days

Does your permit allow you to carry outside of your house? Can you carry concealed?

 

[banjoShooter]

'Does your permit allow you to carry outside of your house? Can you carry concealed?'

Here in Onondaga county (Syracuse) you get a sportsmans restriction on your liscense, so no carry outside your house unless you're hunting, at the range, etc. I think it's pretty much that way (from what I've heard and read) across NY in counties with big cities (Rochester, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo). Outside of those counties it is much easier to get a CCW.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

See location to the left. This is the first timers ritual for a handgun purchase in this county

Purchase gun
Note serial number
Stop by Police Headquarters
Pay fee to get the paperwork for your Pistol Permit
Fill out form
Pay fee for fingerprinting
Pay fee for police stlye mugshots
Return form with fee's
Wait
Report to court
Justify to the judge WHY you need a handgun (In this county, pretty much the only way you'll get a full carry is if you are in contact with large sums of money or are ex-LEO. I know 5 or 6 with pistols, none of them have gotten the elusive full carry however)
recieve permit.
Report back to dealer
show permit and have handgun "placed" on the permit
leave with handgun

You go home with an ammended "target" permit that says the gun may be on your premises and may be in your posession to and from the range. To and back, no "un-reasonable" stops. The gun should not be on your person for any other reason then that. No open carry at all as far as I know. Best part is, after 3 years, you have to re-new the permit. Spano tried to make it so each time you had to re-new you'd pretty much start from scratch. He got alot of flak for it so it's going to stay as is and you just pay a $20 or $30 re-newal fee (Not 100% sure on the price)

I could be off in a few places. I've been researching here and there back and forth for when I get a Permit but haven't gone at it gung-ho like I did with my C&R.... Yet

 

[Lew L]

Or move to Nevada like I did. I was a lifelong resident of Albany until about 7 months ago.

To buy a gun here I walked into a gun store, picked out a gun, paid the $25.00 NICS fee, then walked out with the gun about 15 minutes later. Of course I live in Clark County which means I have to register the gun with Metro (The dealer took care of that when I purchased) and receive a blue registration card which I have to have on me when carrying the gun in Clark County. Nevada has no law against open carry so If I wanted I could just open carry and never have to apply for a CCW. Although, it would be foolish to open carry in places like Las Vegas. Out in the desert may be a different story.

The CCW application is pretty basic with Nevada being a shall issue state. Take CCW course. submit application, pay $105.00, get fingerprinted and have picture taken, then wait about 120 days.

 

[Arcli9ht]

Not all of NY is that awful, but I thought it was pretty well contained to NYC; it's an eye opener to hear about it in Albany too.

In Otsego county, I have to spend about 40 minutes round trip going to the sheriffs office and getting my coupon for a gun purchase. I don't mind the trip because it takes me past the Ommegang brewery)

That's the easy part... because then I have to take about 6 hours round trip driving to the only gun dealer I trust. (KR Gun distributors in Yonkers, NY)

For those outside of the bad counties in NY, the only reason for the coupon purchase is because the permit is good for life. It's the safeguard against a person becoming a felon after getting a permit and trying to buy a gun.


edited to add: I have an unrestricted permit, it took 11 days from paperwork submission to permit in hand.

 

[SWMAN]

If you live in NY state and get an FFL, how much of the paperwork drill can you by-pass? For instance, with an FFL, do you still need to register a pistol if you just have it in your home or transport it locked in a case from home to range?

 

[MilsurpShooter]

As far as I know, here, to obtain the pistol from the dealer you need to show them the permit with the gun ammended to it. Then you can take posession. Any hand gun that you purchase has to be on your permit before the store can turn it over. As far as what a dealer has to do? I've no idea but going by the number of gun shops located in Westchester... Can't be easy.

Arcli9ht would you recommend that dealer from a knowledgeable and courteous aspect? I've had some issues with the shop I go to north of me and won't be patronizing that establishment anymore, having some issues finding a new place. How's the selection they have in stock? I primarily look for old Milsurp types. You can PM me if you want this way we don't de-rail the thread lol

 

[steveracer]

Join a 24hr gun club.

Join two of them. Make sure you keep some used targets and eyes/ears in your vehicle.
They are all over New York. This enables you to carry basically all the time, since you are ALWAYS going to/from the range.
Been doing it for years back Home in NY.

 

[ptmmatssc]

Wow ! What amazes me in this thread is needing a permit for a RIGHT .

 

[Elza]

I’m SSSOOOOO glad I live I Texas!

 

[Prof. A. Wickwire]

They published my letter!

Sincerely,

Prof. A. Wickwire

Times Union

First published: Thursday, April 19, 2007

Apparently Mayor Jerry Jennings and Councilman Jimmy Scalzo were unfamiliar with purchasing a handgun in Albany, before introducing new gun registry legislation (which has since been withdrawn).

The process (as of September 2005) is as follows: First you buy the handgun from a licensed dealer, but you are not allowed to take possession until your pistol license is amended. You must submit an amendment application to the county clerk's office.

After about two weeks, you are informed to appear before a judge in City Court. Your court date is usually a week or two later. On the appointed date, you appear before the judge and your amendment application is either approved or denied.

After about another week or two, you get the approval letter in the mail and can pick up your amendment coupon from the county clerk's office. Once you have your amendment coupon, you go back to the licensed dealer where you filled out the federal purchase form and the dealer calls NICS for the federal instant check.

With all this oversight, how is it possible that the Albany police chief does not have "knowledge of who possesses a handgun in the city of Albany?"

Needless to say, criminals do not have to go through this process.

 

[mmike87]

I think everyone here probably agrees that this was a guy that should not have had a gun. There ARE people that should not have guns. But how do you identify them? It's nearly impossible without severely intruding on someone's privacy.

Do we prevent a woman who suffered post-partum depression several years ago from ever owning a weapon? Do we take away her rights forever because of that? Do you want someone stripped of their rights because some third-part is "concerned" and makes a phone call to the "authorities" that you are somehow "creepy" or "weird"?

Virginia gun laws a pretty reasonable, with a few exceptions, such as restaurant carry. They provide a decent balance between keeping guns of of the "wrong" hands and providing access for law abiding citizens to enjoy their RIGHT to keep and bear arms. Unfortunately, this guy slipped through the cracks. That can and will always happen with any ruleset.

Why is it easier to get a gun than to get a license to drive a car? Simple. First, no one is trying to take away your car. Second, a car is not a right. There is nothing in the Constitution that provides for your new Volvo.

It's just a simple fact that the benefits of responsible gun ownership far outweigh the downside. Add in the fact that people have a RIGHT to defend themselves, and we have a no-brainer here. I do not seek nor do I require anyone's permission to protect myself by any and all means necessary. Period. I have a Virginia CCW permit because it's fair and reasonable in it's requirements, and offers several benefits other than CCW. If the Brady freaks have a problem with that, they can report me as "weird" or "creepy" to the authorities.

I question your logic that your state's gun laws are more responsible in some way. It's responsible to make it HARDER for someone to exercise their RIGHT to defend themselves? I beg to differ.

The Brady Bunch wants victims - not heros. They want to further a culture of inaction, irresponsibility, and cowardice. Don't buy into their poison.