Alberto Gonzales - Pro Gun Control?

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"Now you know why I voted for Badnarik, the Libertarian candidate."

As did I. The Republicans and Democrats both do not care about the people who elect them. Neither really support gun rights. Neither support true freedom. They both are working to take our rights away little by little, and basically p*ssing on our Constitution. The Libertarians are the only ones who want to restore it.

Seriously,why is anyone surprised these people would be for gun control, and for that matter why is anyone surprised Iraq had no WMDs? There was info all over the 'net at the time at foreign news agencies saying just that, but I digress.

I say if anyone REALLY agrees with everything these two stand for, so be it. Vote for them. Anyone however who votes for a party they do not agree with, especially just to keep the other from winning, is wasting their vote.

I will never vote for the Republicrats.
 
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This just proves that not all Republicans are pro-gun (Arnold being one). As a matter of fact the Gun Owners of America website used to list the pro gun control Republicans. I also think it's great we can even have this talk here on THR I was actually banned from the KTRange web site for daring to say something against George Bush.
 
I think this is dangerous times for the RKBA. After the election, the role of gunowners was hardly mentioned.

The role of Evangelicals, antiabortionists, and antigaymarriagists ( :p) seemed to be the population that got GWB in.

Thus, I think he cares little for the RKBA crowd as he can trot out these other causes to get the conservative vote.

It is also incredibly important to have RKBA folks in the House. We know that GWB and Senate would have signed / passed the AWB renewal. If Bush has something going that was part of a deal that renewed the AWB, he would have pressured the House to renew it. Luckily that didn't happen.

I have little use for the argument that Bush is a good gun president as he is better than the incredible crappy bad president that Kerry would have been.
Voting for him on the gun issue was simply not a thing to rejoice about.

I doubt we will see him push for one proactive gun measure in his term.
 
From what i've seen with the election It was the gun owners more then any other group that got GWB in. Tells you something about the man as fast as he forgot us.
 
Golly, Malone.....

"I suspect that the longer this admin gets in the tooth, the more people there will be that voted Libertarian. Heck, if Bush gets much more unpopular, Badnarik might even win."
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I'm pleased to have voted for the far lesser of two evils. :)

Now, if enough folks who might have voted for Bush had voted for Badnarik, what would we have?

A Kerry presidency and massive downward pressure on our RKBA.

"What" you say?

A vote for Badnarik was a 'wasted' vote for sure.
Not 'wasted' in the sense that it didn't make one feel good, or more 'pure', but wasted in the effect it has on our RKBA effort.

Fix the Republicans, or even the Democrats, if it can be done, but please don't thrash around daydreaming about third party 'miracles'. :rolleyes:

I would prefer that Gonzales had told Schumer to take a flying leap, but that isn't the way it works in Washington.

What matters for us is results. The AWB sunsetted, and on "Dubya's" watch.
Good indication of which party deserves our vote.
Now let's see if we can keep it 'sunsetted'. ;) .
 
The role of Evangelicals, antiabortionists, and antigaymarriagists ( ) seemed to be the population that got GWB in.

Thus, I think he cares little for the RKBA crowd as he can trot out these other causes to get the conservative vote.

Won't work with me. I am pro-choice, pro gay rights, pro RKBA. And I ain't a Bible thumping elitist "evangelical" either. So Bush has a long way to go to get any support from me. I got to vote to protect other people's freedoms, and still got the same deal on RKBA I'd have gotten if Kerry was pres. I bet those of you who kept telling me how pro RKBA Bush is feel stupid. Or maybe you haven't caught on yet.

I doubt we will see him push for one proactive gun measure in his term.
2nded.
 
Roland, your hyperbole is in overdrive....

".....and still got the same deal on RKBA I'd have gotten if Kerry was pres. I bet those of you who kept telling me how pro RKBA Bush is feel stupid. Or maybe you haven't caught on yet."
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If you honestly think we're getting what Kerry would have given us, then you are indeed delusional. :rolleyes:

Bush is BY FAR the better choice of the two we were offered.

And he is indeed FAR more pro-RKBA than Kerry. ;)
 
Don't make the mistake of thinking GWB is one bit Pro-RKBA. I voted for GWB but if an anti-gun bill gets to his desk he will sign it just as fast as Kerry would. The only difference he won't push as hard to get it to his desk as Kerry would but never look at GWB as a friend of the people who believe in RKBA
 
If you honestly think we're getting what Kerry would have given us, then you are indeed delusional.

Bush is BY FAR the better choice of the two we were offered.

And he is indeed FAR more pro-RKBA than Kerry.

Really? With both houses controlled by GOP, how exactly would Kerry have used the executive office to snatch all our guns? He must know some tricks Clinton didn't know (I seriously doubt that, ;) ). I mean, Bush supported the "Clinton" gun ban, and so does the AG he just appointed. How is he pro-RKBA? Because you say he is? Talk to me about delusional. I guess if you don't want any other Americans to have freedoms either then you are right, Bush was the better choice. But if you, like me, care about women's rights, and gay's rights, then you can't vote for Bush. And if you demand liberty or death, then being disarmed isn't a concern. IT WON'T HAPPEN. Not while the neurons are still firing in my little gourd, and that is all I can do. I, unlike some, do not shirk my responsibilities, ANY OF THEM, and one of them is keeping Americans free. I am not an evangelical elitist, trying to regulate others' morality and I do not plan to let that same devil that ran around Managua with at sword and Kabul with an AKM make so much headway here in the good ol' U.S. of A.
 
Yup, Bush is FAR more pro-RKBA than Kerry.....

"....never look at GWB as a friend of the people who believe in RKBA"
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OF the two electable candidates we were offered for President,
Bush is BY FAR more of a friend to RKBA than Kerry. :)

He's no Theodore Roosevelt, but OF THE TWO, Bush was the logical choice for RKBA supporters.


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"Bush supported the "Clinton" gun ban, and so does the AG he just appointed."
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Nope, Bush said he'd sign it if it reached his desk. It didn't. ;)

Ashcroft told Schumer during his confirmation hearing that he'd support all the laws on the books, presumably including the Clinton ban, but Ashcroft's office backed the intrepretation of the Second Amendment as an individual rather than a collective right. Definitely a 'pro-gun' sort of A.G., especially when compared to Reno. I'm guessing that Gonzales won't rock the RKBA boat.


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"....you are right, Bush was the better choice."
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Yes, I know. Thank you. :)



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"like me, care about women's rights, and gay's rights, then you can't vote for Bush"
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I do, and I did.

Kerry would have done far more damage to RKBA than Bush will do to those two broad causes.


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"Che Guevara "
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Do you have the T-shirt as well? :D
 
"like me, care about women's rights, and gay's rights, then you can't vote for Bush"

I do, and I did.

Kerry would have done far more damage to RKBA than Bush will do to those two broad causes.
Really? I'd really like to hear how a Democratic president with two houses controlled by the GOP would do more RKBA damage than Bush would do to gay rights with a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marraige? Or more damage than Bush would do to women's reproductive rights by nominating judges like Bill Pryor to federal judgeships, not even to mention Supreme Court justices. I just don't see that, and I think I am pretty objective.

Bush isn't pro-RKBA, and he isn't pro-freedom, unless he's using it an excuse to advance his jacked up foreign policy. But hey, this IS democracy in action, and if the majority of Americans don't have any better sense than this, then so be it. I don't have any kids to inherit this mess, I'm content to let your kids have it. Have fun paying for the auction block they are gonna get sold on.
 
Really? I'd really like to hear how a Democratic president with two houses controlled by the GOP would do more RKBA damage than Bush would do to gay rights with a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marraige? Or more damage than Bush would do to women's reproductive rights by nominating judges like Bill Pryor to federal judgeships, not even to mention Supreme Court justices.
Click to expand...

1) Bush has nowhere near the support necessary to pass any constitutional amendment of any kind. That is a fairly high hurdle to cross. I'll let your other rights issue slide since it had been determined that such discussion rarely produces anything productive.

2) In 2006, the UN will have another meeting regarding international agreements on small arms.

During the 2000 meeting, they sought to classify rifles, shotguns and handguns in the same category as missile launchers, rocket-propelled grenades and crew-served weapons. It was the GWB-appointed ambassador, John Bolton who stopped that effort cold in the UN. What would a Kerry-appointed ambassador do in 2006?

Let us also consider that the Republicans held a 1-seat edge in the Senate going into the 2004 elections - and that the same Senate had approved an AWB renewal and background checks on private sales. Should the UN Small Arms conference present a treaty to the United States in 2006, a President Kerry and the Senate that came out of such an election would be the only things standing between that treaty and ratification by the U.S.

Sound like GWB might make a difference there?
 
If our leaders resly backed the constitution what the UN does would mean nothing to us. Guess our leaders don't know the meaning of the word "Sovereignty"it meaning "Supreme and Independent"
 
In 2006, the UN will have another meeting regarding international agreements on small arms.

During the 2000 meeting, they sought to classify rifles, shotguns and handguns in the same category as missile launchers, rocket-propelled grenades and crew-served weapons. It was the GWB-appointed ambassador, John Bolton who stopped that effort cold in the UN. What would a Kerry-appointed ambassador do in 2006?
So you don't actually say it, but you insinuate that if Kerry was elected President, then the blue helmets would roll in and disarm us. Fred who owns the M1A stock shop's wet dream. What would happen then? There would be a civil war, unless I am the only one who means it when I say Liberty or Death. Death is acceptable. Disarmament is not. But then, I haven't heard of anyone shooting it out with the grabbers in NJ or Cali, so maybe I am just crazy. :confused: I live in TN, born and raised in AL. If I lived in NJ, where you can catch a prison bid for having a Marlin Model 60 with a tube magazine and wood stock if it holds 17 rds, maybe I'd already have gotten the Death. I know that if the police came to my house to arrest me with the intent to send me to prison (read: No Liberty)over a Marlin Model 60 "assault weapon" (or my Mini, or my 10/22, or Glocks, or any of the arms I bear), we'd see how good of an assault weapon it made, if I ran dry in the bigger bores before I got the Death. :evil: Am I alone? I thought that ya'll were mostly the same way.
And don't think John Kerry doesn't know about folks like me. I find it hard to believe that he would destroy this whole grand experiment just to advance policy on an issue that his party knows the majority of the U.S. populace does not favor. By that I mean, he would not impose a broad ban of firearms because he knows there are still some of us who would die in vain, without regret or shame to try to retain them/to protest the suspension of our Liberties.
BTW, I am this hardcore about the gay rights and the issue some are afraid to even bring up, cause people have already gotten blown up and shot over it a lot already (almost exclusively by the terrorist endorsing, elitist religous right).
 
gee, Roland, you're not fond of "Dubya' are you?

"Really? I'd really like to hear how a Democratic president with two houses controlled by the GOP would do more RKBA damage
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As Bartholomew Roberts has explained, it wouldn't have taken more than a rabid advocate of gun-control such as Kerry advocating from the White House to have things go sour in the Senate quickly. Do you forget Clinton's advocacy of the Million Moms and the anti-gun hoopla generated by it?


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"than Bush would do to gay rights with a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marraige? Or more damage than Bush would do to women's reproductive rights by nominating judges like Bill Pryor to federal judgeships, not even to mention Supreme Court justices. I just don't see that, and I think I am pretty objective."
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It could be that your opinion of your objectivity is highly overrated. ;)

Since this discussion is about RKBA and the effect Alberto Gonzales might have upon our cause, I'll have to let the other causes slide while noting that I don't see why homosexuals would want to be married, nor why women killing their unborn children is necessarily a good thing. At any rate, that is not my fight.

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"Bush isn't pro-RKBA, and he isn't pro-freedom,"
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Yes he is, FAR more so than Kerry is, as a matter of fact.

Roland, before you continue to argue against fact, please check the NRA and GOA rating of Senator Kerry, and have a look at his voting record on RKBA issues over the past twenty years.

Next, compare this with "Dubya's" record as Govenor of Texas and the conduct of the DoJ and U.S. U.N. delegates under "Dubya'" watch.
Kerry would have been a disaster for RKBA.


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"unless he's using it an excuse to advance his jacked up foreign policy."
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Sounds like the personal opinion of someone who quotes Che? :rolleyes:


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"But hey, this IS democracy in action, and if the majority of Americans don't have any better sense than this, then so be it."
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That's odd. I believe the majority excercised excellent judgement by choosing "Dubya". As has been demonstrated, he was by far the best choice of the two for RKBA. ;)

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"I don't have any kids to inherit this mess, I'm content to let your kids have it. Have fun paying for the auction block they are gonna get sold on."
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You wouldn't be a Performing Arts major, would you Roland? :)


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"I live in TN, born and raised in AL. If I lived in NJ, where you can catch a prison bid for having a Marlin Model 60 with a tube magazine and wood stock if it holds 17 rds, maybe I'd already have gotten the Death. I know that if the police came to my house to arrest me with the intent to send me to prison (read: No Liberty)over a Marlin Model 60 "assault weapon" (or my Mini, or my 10/22, or Glocks, or any of the arms I bear), we'd see how good of an assault weapon it made, if I ran dry in the bigger bores before I got the Death."
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Nevermind, Roland.

If you aren't in Performing Arts, you've missed your calling. :D


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"I am this hardcore about the gay rights and the issue some are afraid to even bring up, cause people have already gotten blown up and shot over it a lot already (almost exclusively by the terrorist endorsing, elitist religous right)."
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So, Roland, do you have the Che T-shirt, or not? :confused:
 
Do you forget Clinton's advocacy of the Million Moms and the anti-gun hoopla generated by it? No I remember it well. It got us an AWB that was useless, as while it was in effect I still managed to build a great "assault weapon". This past year it sunset. So it was a temporary inconvienence at worst. And your candiate "Dubya" supported it. He said he'd sign its extension. Then his 2nd AG says he supports it too, after his first had to go bacause he was too far to the religious right even for Dubya.

At any rate, that is not my fight.
That is my point. Its not your fight because you do not care about anyone else's freedoms, only your own. Now if your college freshman full ride scholarship daughter came up a month pregnant, you might suddenly reconsider your view on whether "women killing their unborn children is necessarily a good thing". Or your religious BS might still cloud your vision, I can't say for sure. But I, in the mean time, would be defending her freedoms, just like I would your gay son's or neighbor's gay son's, or whatever. You would be against them being free. Very American of you.

I don't see why homosexuals would want to be married,
Maybe some homsexuals don't see why you would want to have a AR-15 in your house, but I would defend your freedom to do that just like I'd defend their right to be able to make medical decisions for their life parnter. BTW I don't think you don't see why they want to, I just think you don't want them to. There is a big difference. But, if for arguments sake, you are ignorant about why they desire freedom, that is still no excuse for refusing them said freedom. And IMHO refusing someone their freedoms is a good excuse for them to kill you. :)

If you aren't in Performing Arts, you've missed your calling.

If you think my statements about Liberty or Death are for dramatic effect, then you are sadly mistaken. I mean every word, and it is foremost in my mind everytime I hold and squeeze. I am ashamed that other Americans aren't for their countrymen being free, and I think that alone sounds the death knell for this grand experiment.

"unless he's using it an excuse to advance his jacked up foreign policy."
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Sounds like the personal opinion of someone who quotes Che?

Me and about another 40% of the country. I don't know if all of us have Che Tshirts or not (I got my first one in 1995, I don't have one currently, but thanks for asking) but I do know that there are enough of us well-armed to give you and Fred at the M1A shop nightmares if you only knew about us. Fortunately for us, your Taliban like determination to destroy anything that doesn't suit your interpretation of a bloodthirsty god's will clouds your vision, and you think we are all Birkenstock wearing, whole wheat eating girls in boys clothes. Keep on thinking that, and keep giving 'Dubya' all your money and your unquestioning loyalty. His scams depend on it, sucker. :neener:

The batting average for discussion vs. personal squabbles is rapidly approaching 0.lockdown... Yeah god forbid anyone get his feelings hurt. You know conservatives, they always decide things on how it makes them feel, not on facts. "I feel that abortion is murder" "I feel that homosexuality is a sin" "I feel like punching Jerry Falwell in the face." Oh wait, that last one is mine.
 
Uh, Sindawe......

"Voting for the lesser of two evils is STILL voting for evil."
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NOPE!

That's the extremely negative "glass half empty" point of view you are espousing there.

We have a choice between two electable candidates...one virulently anti-gun, the other slightly pro-gun.

It is not evil to vote for the more pro-gun candidate,

IF you wish to advance the cause of RKBA.


Roland, Roland..... :(

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"Do you forget Clinton's advocacy of the Million Moms and the anti-gun hoopla generated by it? No I remember it well. It got us an AWB that was useless,
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As I suspected, you are 'winging' your part of the discussion.

The Million Moms march was a full five years AFTER the passage of the AWB, AFTER the Democrats had lost control of both the Senate and House. It was pure Clinton anti-gun advocacy, and serves as an example for what serious consequences a Kerry presidency would have had.



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"And your candiate "Dubya" supported it. He said he'd sign its extension."
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No, he said he'd sign it IF it reached his desk. From what I understand, the Whitehouse moved several mountains to see that it didn't. And it didn't.



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"Then his 2nd AG says he supports it too, after his first had to go bacause he was too far to the religious right even for Dubya."
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You see Roland, you can't keep your hatred of the folks under control long enough to discuss the issue. Ashcroft was a fine AG when it came to RKBA.
I suspect Gonzales won't be as pro-RKBA as Ashcroft, but that he won't be anywhere nearly as "anti" as ANY Kerry nomination would have been.

So.....Bush was the better choice for RKBA in this election cycle.
Is any of this sinking in, Roland?


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"Its not your fight because you do not care about anyone else's freedoms, only your own."
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Not at all, Roland. The situation comes about because I have only a limited amount of time to devote to causes which I believe in.

RKBA has nowhere near the strength of advocacy which "woman's rights" and "homosexual rights" seem to have, and they are causes for which I sense no particularurgency as far as any real threats to them.

RKBA, on the other hand is under one long continuous threat, both at the state and federal level.


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"Now if your college freshman full ride scholarship daughter came up a month pregnant, you might suddenly reconsider your view on whether "women killing their unborn children is necessarily a good thing"
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Nope, I no longer have a college daughter, but the one I do have would be brighter than that.

Failing that, she'd be mature enough to live with the consequences. In other words, if I advocated abortion, she'd have the kid and adopt. (Based on a true-life scenario). ;)


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"Or your religious BS might still cloud your vision, I can't say for sure."
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You "can't say for sure", Roland?

No doubt because you don't know what you are talking about, old chum.

I've been an atheist since the age of 14...none of my views have anything to do with "religion".


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"But I, in the mean time, would be defending her freedoms, just like I would your gay son's or neighbor's gay son's, or whatever. You would be against them being free. Very American of you."
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No, Roland, you would be defending her option to kill her unborn child.

There is a difference.

Why should things get to that stage?


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"Maybe some homsexuals don't see why you would want to have a AR-15 in your house, but I would defend your freedom to do that just like I'd defend their right to be able to make medical decisions for their life parnter."
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Most homosexuals, I'd suspect.

And I wouldn't have an AR-15 in my house. :neener:

What's "making medical decisions for their life partner" got to do with marriage, anyway. I believe what the conservatives are doing is to try to save the definition of "marriage" as an institution for the production & protection of children. Simple 'couples' legislation will address the issues of homosexual 'partners', as it does here in Australia.
Y'all just have to learn to get along and stop demanding absolutes.


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"BTW I don't think you don't see why they want to, I just think you don't want them to. There is a big difference."
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Nope, you are wrong again, Roland.

Your presumption is threatening to outrun your hyperbole!

I don't see why "marriage" should be applied to what homosexuals are about, given that the majority of folks would prefer the word to have a distinctive meaning.


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"But, if for arguments sake, you are ignorant about why they desire freedom, that is still no excuse for refusing them said freedom."
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For Goodness sake, Roland, I said I wouldn't advocate for homosexual causes.
I'm not advocating for animal rights either.
I am not "refusing" anyone anything.



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"And IMHO refusing someone their freedoms is a good excuse for them to kill you."
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Oh-oh Roland, you have crossed the "stupid barrier" into mindless anti-establishment drivel here. :uhoh:

We have a representative form of government (well, sort of) and I suspect that perhaps you don't possess the necessary patience to work within such a system. Is that what you admire about Che Guevarra?


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"If you think my statements about Liberty or Death are for dramatic effect, then you are sadly mistaken."
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I don't think so, Roland. You make the noises, but they are empty.


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"I mean every word, and it is foremost in my mind everytime I hold and squeeze."
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Dang, Roland....and I'm usually just trying to keep my sight picture.



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"I am ashamed that other Americans aren't for their countrymen being free, and I think that alone sounds the death knell for this grand experiment."
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There's 'free', Roland, and then there's 'anarchy'.
Most of us prefer a balance in between somewhere.


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"Me and about another 40% of the country. I don't know if all of us have Che Tshirts or not (I got my first one in 1995, I don't have one currently, but thanks for asking)"
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Fortunately that 40% wasn't enough.

Wooo-hooo! I knew it!

You can't be a 'real revoluntionary" until you've got Che's T-shirt!

I got mine in 1970 ; .


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"but I do know that there are enough of us well-armed to give you and Fred at the M1A shop nightmares if you only knew about us."
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See, Roland, it's this sort of twaddle that damages your credibility.
Too many 'revolutionary' thoughts, not enough reason.


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"Fortunately for us, your Taliban like determination to destroy anything that doesn't suit your interpretation of a bloodthirsty god's will clouds your vision, and you think we are all Birkenstock wearing, whole wheat eating girls in boys clothes. Keep on thinking that, and keep giving 'Dubya' all your money and your unquestioning loyalty. His scams depend on it, sucker."
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You DO realize that you're writing twaddle, don't you, Roland?


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"The batting average for discussion vs. personal squabbles is rapidly approaching 0.lockdown..."
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Art has a very well-defined sense for a thread that has veered dangerously off-course. ;)


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"You know conservatives, they always decide things on how it makes them feel, not on facts. "I feel that abortion is murder" "I feel that homosexuality is a sin" "I feel like punching Jerry Falwell in the face." Oh wait, that last one is mine."
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Tsk, tsk, Roland.

All that hostility and nothing constructive being done with it.

I wouldn't blame Art for pulling the plug on this one. :(
 
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