All Russian steel case ammo is NOT created equal!

[wnycollector]

About a month ago I picked up my first AR (RRA nation match lower and DelTon government profile 20" upper) Thus far I have put 500 rounds through it (300 rounds silver bear, 100 rounds of tula, 60 rounds of American eagle and 40 S&B). The rifle is 100% with the brass cased America Eagle/S&B and the steel case silver bear...but I had to knock out six stuck cases (out of 100 rounds!) from the chamber with a cleaning rod with the tula ammo!

I have owned an norinco SKS for 20 years. I have shot everything from 1960's vintage chinese copper washed surplus ammo to wolf, brown bear and golder tiger in this rifle. I can't ever remember in having a FTE in ~10,000 rounds. Two stove pipe jams with Tula 7.62x39

I'm starting to see a pattern here! Has anyone else had problems with Tula ammo?

 

[cthulhufan]

I just picked up 100 rounds of their 54R to test out in my PSL, will let you know when I get back from the range this weekend.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Tula is lower in quality than Silver Bear (Silver Bear is actually rather good Commie bloc ammo for range/practice). However, both will get harder to remove from the chamber as the gun gets hotter. Another factor is Commie bloc guns are made for steel case while American isn't.

wnycollector
All Russian steel case ammo is NOT created equal!
About a month ago I picked up my first AR (RRA nation match lower and DelTon government profile 20" upper) Thus far I have put 500 rounds through it (300 rounds silver bear, 100 rounds of tula, 60 rounds of American eagle and 40 S&B). The rifle is 100% with the brass cased America Eagle/S&B and the steel case silver bear...but I had to knock out six stuck cases (out of 100 rounds!) from the chamber with a cleaning rod with the tula ammo!

I have owned an norinco SKS for 20 years. I have shot everything from 1960's vintage chinese copper washed surplus ammo to wolf, brown bear and golder tiger in this rifle. I can't ever remember in having a FTE in ~10,000 rounds. Two stove pipe jams with Tula 7.62x39

I'm starting to see a pattern here! Has anyone else had problems with Tula ammo?

 

[1KPerDay]

I don't shoot steel stuff through my ARs. Tula runs 100% in my Mini.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Another factor is Commie bloc guns are made for steel case while American isn't.

I see this claim made often, but what tangible differences exist to support it? The only one I know of is greater case taper, and that's a much smaller difference with 5.45x39 than it is with 7.62x39.

 

[bri]

400 rnds of Tula so far, no failures (spikes mid-length AR in .223).

 

[Maverick223]

Often times AR pattern 7.62x39mm rifles have a tighter chamber than what is typical of imported rifles in that chambering. IMO this is the cause for much of the problems you have encountered. Tula isn't that bad of ammo but better Russian ammo exists (including: Barnaul, Ulyanovsk, Novosibirsk, and even Vympel). Silver Bear (Barnaul marketed under the "Bear" name amongst others) is probably the best, most consistent Russian ammo in my experience, in fact I find it to be as good as most domestic fodder.

 

[Quentin]

400 rnds of Tula so far, no failures (spikes mid-length AR in .223).

Like BRI, I'm having good luck with Tula/Herter's .223. Got a few hundred rounds down my ArmaLite midlength with no failures. Dirty ammo but no other complaints. Accuracy is better than I expected, maybe 3MOA.

Like Maverick223 said maybe you have a tight chamber. My AR chamber is pretty loose and gobbles up just about anything. And maybe a midlength's timing is a factor too. (Doubt it but BRI also has a middy.)

 

[RyanM]

IIRC, Wolf "black box" is also made in Tula, while their Military Classic lines are made in Ulyanovsk.

 

[Maverick223]

IIRC, Wolf "black box" is also made in Tula, while their Military Classic lines are made in Ulyanovsk.

Yep, at least traditionally; however recently there has been some reports that not all of the Mil. Classic is made in the Ulyanovsk plant. This is disconcerting because they use the 8M3 "Sapsan" bullet, which offers excellent terminal performance and makes a great defense cartridge. From what I have heard all of the lacquered cased Mil. Classic is 8M3, but you have to watch the new Poly coated fodder (but I have not confirmed this myself).

 

[Maverick223]

UPDATE: I found a box of Wolf "Mil. Classic" HP Polymer cased ammo in my stockpile, so I figured I would put the claim to the test. I pulled a bullet from both the Mil. Classic and standard black box Wolf...they are identical. Per my understanding the "Sapsan" bullet is designed with a boat tail, there is no such boat tail on either bullet...leading me to believe that both are Tula. Additionally, FWIW both are charged with about 26gr. of stick powder (also identical) and there is no difference in head stamp to indicate the location where they are manufactured, therefore if I were seeking Uly manufactured ammunition I would stay away from Wolf with poly casings.

 

[RyanM]

Well, dang. I wish I hadn't sold that old case of genuine Uly Wolf Military Classic ammo I had. I guess the mid-Obama-crisis price I sold it for was actually fair, after all!

 

[Onward Allusion]

I don't know about other folks, but steel will often fail to eject from the chamber in my 59's (1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th gen value-line), Sigmas, & P89 when they're hot.

I never have that problem with brass. It's not the case taper for 9mm. It's the fact that the cases start expanding due to heat. The first half dozen mags or so will function flawlessly. When the chamber is nice and hot that's when it starts happening. It's not often but it does happen maybe every 3rd or 4th mag after the first half dozen.

I've never had this type of issue with my CZ-82 or IJ-70.

I don't use steel cased ammo in my American guns any more.

Z-Michigan

Quote:
Another factor is Commie bloc guns are made for steel case while American isn't.
I see this claim made often, but what tangible differences exist to support it? The only one I know of is greater case taper, and that's a much smaller difference with 5.45x39 than it is with 7.62x39.

 

[M1key]

Nothing wrong with Tula.

Running it in an AR?...Well, you get what you get.

 

[mljdeckard]

I run Russian ammo in Russian guns. Works just fine. That's why I bought the guns.

 

[lions]

Another factor is Commie bloc guns are made for steel case while American isn't.

I see this claim made often, but what tangible differences exist to support it?

All I can think of is that commie guns tend to have beefier extractors which seems to help when the chamber is filthy because the steel doesn't seal it off as well as brass.

 

[Slamfire]

This is an example of excessive breech friction, and steel cases have more breech friction than brass.

Just put a drop of motor oil on ten rounds, roll them in your hands to distribute the oil, put them in the magazine, then do that with the next ten rounds until your magazine is loaded.

It is also an example of ammunition sensitivity. The AR mechanism is far more finicky about its ammunition characteristics than other types of actions.

 

[umc180gr]

My mini 14 never had problems with Wolf but first time out with tula stuck one in the chamber. Got to pound it out.

 

[Maverick223]

My mini 14 never had problems with Wolf but first time out with tula stuck one in the chamber. Got to pound it out.

Don't know if .223Rem. is the same, but typical 7.62x39mm black box Wolf is Tula.

 

[Col. Plink]

I don't shoot .223, but I just can't imagine shooting it in steel caes through an AR...

 

[Ignition Override]

wny:

Although your question seems to refer only to use in ARs, my old Mini 14 easily digested about 1,200 rds. of Wolf and a little Silver Bear in '08-09 with no glitches. No other brands were used.
The Mini 14 was the most reliable gun I've had (also the SKS), but my first M-1 Garand has been here just a week.

According to "LuckyGunner.." and other sources, Tula is imported and repackaged as Wolf.

 

[Kwanger]

I see this claim made often, but what tangible differences exist to support it? The only one I know of is greater case taper, and that's a much smaller difference with 5.45x39 than it is with 7.62x39.

None. It's in the same vein as the internet mantra that says brown bear lacquer melts and sticks in your chamber, despite it being categorically and scientifically "myth busted". Not that I'm concerned; if people won't shoot steel cased ammo out of their ar's, that means there will be more around for those of us who do. I've put thousands of rounds of steel cased ammo through my 'non commie' rifles with zero ill effects.

Back on topic....I agree with the original sentiment; from my own testing I do think the bear family of ammo is more consistant, accurate and reliable than the tula. Not that the tula is bad,,,,,it's just that the bear is better, although it smells worse!

 

[Kwanger]

I see this claim made often, but what tangible differences exist to support it? The only one I know of is greater case taper, and that's a much smaller difference with 5.45x39 than it is with 7.62x39.

None. It's in the same vein as the internet mantra that says brown bear lacquer melts and sticks in your chamber, despite it being categorically and scientifically "myth busted". Not that I'm concerned; if people won't shoot steel cased ammo out of their ar's, that means there will be more around for those of us who do. I've put thousands of rounds of steel cased ammo through my 'non commie' rifles with zero ill effects.

Back on topic....I agree with the original sentiment; from my own testing I do think the bear family of ammo is more consistant, accurate and reliable than the tula. Not that the tula is bad,,,,,it's just that the bear is better, although it smells worse!

 

[Ignition Override]

A gunsmith evaluated whether lacquer in chambers was the primary cause for cases to stick in Mini 30 chambers.

Instead, he found that those people often let carbon accumulate in their chambers becuase they seldom cleaned that area, and using rigid steel cases allowed more of it to collect outside the cases.

When these people then used brass ammo in the same dirty rifles, the expansion caused the softer brass cases to stick in neglected chambers.

 

[Sport45]

Just put a drop of motor oil on ten rounds, roll them in your hands to distribute the oil, put them in the magazine, then do that with the next ten rounds until your magazine is loaded.

That might help with extraction, but doesn't it increase the forces on the bolt face and locking lugs considerably when firing?