Alliant 2400 for M1 Garand?

[YellowLab]

I was looking over some web sites and saw that Alliant lists thier 2400 for my 3 main rifle cartridges (.223, .30 Carbine and .30-06 M1 Garand). I currently use H335, H110 and H4895, respectively.

Is the 2400 gonna be to hard on the op rod of the Garand? I know 2400 is faster on the burn rate chart, but that is just a relative index of powder speeds..... could you still consider 2400 a 'Medium quickness' powder?

 

[Mal H]

Alliant 2400 in a 30-06? Right off the top of my head, I've gotta say Never!!

Well, maybe not never, but the load would have to be a light one and very slow (for a 30-06) plinking load with a light bullet, but to call it a normal powder for a 30-06 is just wrong.

Are you sure it was Alliant 2400 and not an Accurate 24xx powder? Do you have a link to the Alliant data you are citing?


Your list of powders are all good choices.

 

[Chief 101]

I think he meant 2400 for the .30 Carbine. I loaded for that cartridge some years ago and 2400 was my choice and functioned well. Chief

 

[Mal H]

Unless you're talking about a different "he", I don't think so:

Is the 2400 gonna be to hard on the op rod of the Garand?

If you mean by "he" the site, and it is recommending 2400 only for the Carbine, then that's a good possibility.

 

[YellowLab]

Why do poeple respond when they have no informatinve input? Saying NEVER doesn't answer the question. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Saying .30 Carbine means that you have NO clue on 2400 and its MANUFACTURERS OWN LOAD DATA... they list .30-06 150gr bullets.

I've come across load data for the Garand, in .30-06. From SEVERAL web sites..... even the manufacturer. THey omit if its for bolt or gas guns... so thats why I am 'researching' the information.

 

[YellowLab]

For the non-believers:

Alliants Load data:

Fed. 3.21 24 Fed. 210 2400 29.4 2,330 56,000

ANd thier web site:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...typeid=2&weight=150&shellid=1071&bulletid=255

 

[Mal H]

And saying :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: doesn't help either.

Did you read past my first sentence? Note the velocity of the 2400 load and the pressure generated to achieve that relatively slow velocity. A small slip of the scale and you could have an explosive load. I know I will never use 2400 in a 30-06.

 

[BruceB]

It's perfectly possible to build safe .30-06 loads with 2400, but as others have noted, they will be light loads and WILL NOT FUNCTION the Garand's mechanism. Such .30-06 loads would make decent small-game loads, and not lose the brass in the bushes, either, because it wouldn't be ejected. If a "straight-pull bolt-action Garand" turns yer crank, go for it. Pressure at the gasport will be too low to operate the rifle with any sane 2400 load.

The initial list of three powders for the calibers in question (H335 for .223, 296 for .30 Carbine, and H4895 for .30-06 in the Garand), are extremely good selections for the respective calibers indicated. 4895 will definitely serve well in the .223, as well, but H335 won't work in my Garand, and 296 is too quick-burning for full-power loads in .223 or .30-06.

 

[nelson133]

Just another voice added to the chorus. 2400 is great for the .30 carbine, iis great for medium velocity .30 cast bullet rifle loads. I load for 7.62x54, 7.5x55 Swiss, and others with great results. But it is definately not the powder of choice for full power jacketed load. You need to know alot about powder burning speeds and pressure characteristics before you start playing around like that. One of the freedoms that you have in reloading s the freedom to put together a load that will take your head off. The old hands will tell you that you may not have to fear what can happen, but you better respect it.

 

[ocabj]

For the non-believers:

Alliants Load data:

Fed. 3.21 24 Fed. 210 2400 29.4 2,330 56,000

ANd thier web site:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...1&bulletid=255

I wouldn't use 2400 or the corresponding recipe in the above link for a Garand. 2400 is too fast a burning powder. According to the section for Garand loads in the Hornady manual, the fastest powder they use is H335. Alliant 2400 is higher up on the chart as far as speed in the burn rate.

Be sure to reload responsibly. Damaging your gun or injuring yourself is one thing. But irresponsibly reloading such that you injure someone else is unacceptable.

 

[loadedround]

After reading some of the above comments, I am now convinced that is ok to load my Garand with black powder and it will go bang when I pull the trigger. Having said that, why not just tell the gentleman asking the question that 2400 is much too fast for loading normal loads in a 30-06 rifle and could cause severe pressure problems if attempted. I suggest this gentleman get several good reloading manuals and read them prior to loading his Garand. Please be safe.

 

[ILS27R]

Don't be too hard on him...

...the load is listed in a published manual from the manufacturer. And like Bruce said, you could build a safe load using 2400.

On the other hand, 2400 would not be the best choice for the .30-06, especially in a Garand.

YellowLab, 4895 was the original powder used in ammuniton for the M1. I would stick with it.

 

[YellowLab]

I am not asking about IMR4895... I, and every other being on the planet knows it is uber for the M1.

I am NOT looking for a hunting load, I am NOT looking for high velocity... people ASSumed that I was.... but I never asked that... I asked for advice on 2400 in the M1.... but got Carbine, high power blather that was completely useless to the topic.

Maybe I AM looking for a moderate plinking cast bullet load.... naw, who would want that? I Mean cheap shooting bullets... let me run out and buy FMJ and $150 jugs of 4895 to put holes in paper at 100 yards..... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Doug b]

2400 is an outstanding mag pistol powder as is 110.For curiosities sake why would you want to put that in a garand?

 

[Deanimator]

It's perfectly possible to build safe .30-06 loads with 2400, but as others have noted, they will be light loads and WILL NOT FUNCTION the Garand's mechanism.

I used to use 13(?)gr. of Red Dot for gallery loads for .30-06, 7.62x54mm, etc.

Check before using.

Neither is appropriate for the Garand.

 

[azredhawk44]

Yellowlab:

Sorry about some of the less... salient... comments you've had to endure here with this thread.

I've played around with odd powders in rifle cartridges, but only in 30-30. I have an M1A, but have not attempted to shoot light-loads from it yet. Not sure if I ever will, since a mistake will cost me $1200 and a portion of my face.

For 30-30, I have tried 8gr of Titegroup under a 150gr plated bullet from Berry's Mfg. Works great. I'd guess velocity is around 1500fps, but I don't have a chrono.

I would guess that 30-06 would respond similarly to Titegroup, if you used a little bit lighter bullet. Something like a 110gr Sierra Varminter might be fun. Less resistance on the rifling, too (the bullet is shorter than the 150gr I mentioned), since your Garand has a longer barrel than my Win94.

I've never tried anything like 296, H110 or 2400 though. They don't strike me as the best experimental powders since they are dependent on a fixed ratio of powder/air in the case volume.

I'd suggest sticking to more well-known light loads for .30 caliber rifles, most of which use faster burning pistol powders such as Unique, Clays, Titegroup or Red Dot.

 

[toecutter]

Single Powder Solutions

I came across this list looking for some load data for my 30 carbine and thought I would pass off my own US.02.

To answer your question directly, 2400 will make your rifle go bang, it is unlikely that you will achieve acceptable performance from it in any bottle neck rifle caliber. 2400 is a magnum pistol powder, it gives good performance in shotshells, magnum revolver loads, and certain rifle loads, the .30 M1 carbine is one of them.

The .30 Carbine is very close in case geometry and in case capacity to the .357 Magnum.

If you are looking to cut down the varieties of powder you are using, I highly recommend Hodgdon's Varget. I started using this a few years ago on a whim after a conversation with one of Hodgdon's online help people. Since then, I use it for all of my centerfire rifle reloading (.223, .308, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, .30-30 and others), except for my .30 carbine.

I chose 2400 for reloading my .30M1 since it seems to be more forgiving than H110 and meters significantly better. And following the "use fewer powders" principle, I currently use 4 powders; Hodgdon's Varget, Hodgdon's Clays, Alliant 2400, and Alliant's Unique. The 2400 is used in my .44 mag, .357, .38, and .30 carbine loads. I could probably drop unique from the lineup in favor of clays for my .45ACP loads, but it also performs well in my .44, .357 loads.

Anyways, I hope this helps solve your problem even if the answer isn't the one you're looking for.

 

[stoky]

IMHO
Don't use 2400 in a Garand. Use something with a burn rate between IMR 4064 and 4895.
If you want to use fast powders for light loads, don't do it in a gas piston semi auto.

 

[Jim Watson]

Maybe I AM looking for a moderate plinking cast bullet load....

Back in the days before everything was either Tactical or Magnum, there were a lot of cast bullets shot. No 2400 was one of the best choices in powder. But not at the levels Alliant shows for jacketed bullet pressures. Ed Harris recommended 16 grains for a medium weight cast bullet in .30-06 and about any other cartridge of similar volume. A local shooter uses 20 grains but he has some linotype to make bullets hard enough to stand the pressure and acceleration.

The question is, what is going to happen in the Garand? Shooting cast bullets in M1 rifles (and carbines) was a common subject of magazine articles and Q&A columns. The best outcome is as BruceB says, you end up with a straight pull bolt action. The worse outcome is that you develop enough port pressure to short stroke the action and cause one or another jam. The worst outcome is you put in a double charge and wreck the rifle.

Y'all be careful, now, you hear?

 

[Jet22]

About 25 years ago I took a load out of a loading manual for the 30-06 using 2400 and a 100 grain bullet. I used it in a 760 Remington pump that had never showed any high pressure signs using any published loads. The load looked a little hot, but hey-my gun had been safe with any other load I ever put through it, so what the hell. I put one together and tried it. When I opened the gun, the primer fell out and quite a bit of brass had flowed back into the ejector hole. That is the hotest load I have ever fired or hope to fire. If I had been using older brass, I am sure it would have blown up the gun. Thank God the brass flowed and streached instead of separated. You can play with 2400 in your Garand if you wish, but I hope you have a good supply of op rods. You are going to need them.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Actually quite a lot of #2400 has been fired though M1 Garands.

I've got old articles in a bound book reprinted from some of the earlier Handloader Magazine articles. A popular match back in the 30's and later in 50's and early 60's was a 1,000" match.

Yes, thats not a misprint. 1,000 Inches=27yds
targets are reduced versions of HighPower targets.

A popular load was a cast bullet of 150-200gr; utilizing 16.0-20.0gr of #2400. Any reasonalby accurate load won't produce enough port pressure to function the action. Sufficient pressure will likely rupture cases or cause bolt to rip off the case rim. Not good!

This makes the semi-auto rifle a "straight pull" bolt action, but then many of the competitors were using '03-A3's, so it wasn't a big deal.

It was mostly a "poor mans" version of highpower shooting and you shot what you had.
For most, that meant a military rifle from the DCM of some description.

The short range was something of a "ground leveler" in that often a "sow's ear" military re-tread with an oversized cast bullet would in the hands of a good shot, match or exceed a full blown match rifle. Perhaps why it faded from popularity, which never was much. Hence, most have never heard of it. It prevailed on indoor ranges.

My older brother has a M1 National Match that he's used for shooting some Hipower since the mid '80's.
His favorite off-season practice load is to shoot a cast bullet over 12.0gr of Unique at 27yds. Accuracy is one-hole. If it's not an X, something was wrong with the position, or trigger squeeze. It actually takes quite a lot of practice and dry firing to get the basics down and conditioned to be really competitive.
I do likewise with NRA PPC, but usually just dryfire on an improvised basement range shooting at the "little" silhoutte on the top left corner of the NRA B-27.

Oops, I let out one of our "little" secrets !!!

Jet22;
if that was one of the recipe's I've seen, you did a common thing my wife does when she's cooking.
Doubled the receipe!!
(but honey, I FOLLOWED THE RECEPIE!!!! sp. intended)
not !!!

I've done that before too! By ACCIDENT!
Same results.................not good!

 

[asknight]

The 56,000psi that Alliant lists with that load is a little high for the Garand as well.

Also, I must add that Yellowlab didn't mention "moderate plinking" or "light plinking loads" in the original post, only after snapping at the hand that fed him information in which he didn't wish to hear. In the original post, he alluded to the notion that he was considering Alliant 2400 as a universal replacement powder for use in the .223, , .30-06, and .30 Carbine at what we all understood to be standard pressure/velocity ranges designed around the cartridges.

The Garand wasn't designed or intended for "moderate plinking" or "light bullets".

Alliant 2400 wasn't designed or intended for the .30-06, it was intended for magnum pistol cartridges.

Finally, if you post under the name P. Farber on jouster.com, you're questions were already answered in this thread. You do appear to communicate in the same manner as that fellow on that board as shown here and here.

Edited to add: I now realize this thread was resurrected from the past!

 

[Jet22]

Jet22;
if that was one of the recipe's I've seen, you did a common thing my wife does when she's cooking.
Doubled the receipe!!
(but honey, I FOLLOWED THE RECEPIE!!!! sp. intended)
not !!!

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I didn't double it...I don't think a 30-06 case will hold over 80 grains of 2400 anyway!!

I should add the load was printed in the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading-Rifle-Pistol Vol. II first printing June 1973. It is on page 222. It is listed as a top load being 40.3 grains of 2400 with a 100 grain short jacket. I believe I used 38 grains. I do not suggest anybody trys this load as it is way too hot.