Alliant & Speer Power Pistol Load Data for 357 Magnum

[JHTexas]

I’m wondering if anybody has experience using Load Data from Alliant/Speer with Power Pistol for 357 magnum, mainly using their data with other company’s jacketed projectiles.

I recently loaded some 357 Magnum rounds with the load data from those two sources, and when I Chronographed (LabRadar) the rounds, they were much faster than what the load data suggested.

When I contacted Alliant tech-support and ask them for suggestions, they basically told me that the load data is only for the Speer projectiles and cannot be used with other jacketed or plated projectiles. So in other words they were no help…

Help with 357 magnum jacketed loads would be very helpful but if you have comparisons with jacketed projectiles to their load data it would help too. Do the Speer projectiles differ that much to jacketed?

I have tested this revolver with CFE-Pistol and found it to be within what Hodgdon showed for velocities. I only bring this up to eliminate the question of a fast barrel.

I’ll list the projectiles I use and also the data from my results compared to what they suggest for Speer projectiles.
Their data comes from a 10” test barrel and my revolver is a 6”.
Cases were all trimmed, chamfered, and deburred.
Redding dies were used and I put a medium to heavy crimp on.

Thanks!

Jacketed projectiles I use:
Hornady XTP 158gr
Precision Delta FMJ-FP 130gr
Precision Delta FMJ-FP 158gr (Tested)
Zero JSP 125gr

Revolver, Colt Python 6”
Each charge was individually weighed.

Load#1
Starline Brass 1.276" OAL
COAL 1.580"
CCI 500 SPP
Delta Precision 158gr fmj-fp
Power Pistol 7.0gr
Velocity 1196
ES-19
12x

Load#2
Starline Brass 1.276" OAL
COAL 1.580"
CCI 500 SPP
Delta Precision 158gr fmj-fp
Power Pistol 7.7gr
Velocity 1265
ES-57
12x

Alliant/Speer Load Data
10” Barrel
CCI 500 SPP
Their projectiles 158gr
Power Pistol 7.5gr~8.5gr
Velocity 963~1078

 

[AJC1]

Speer gold dots are definitely different. Their regular jacketed bullets seem to fall in line with others in multiple loadings. A 158 jsp or jhp can't have a profoundly different bearing surface, but the cannelure position can be moved a lot.

 

[NMexJim]

So I went on PD site and, like you say, those are flat nose bullets.

38 Cal 158gr FMJ

Precision Delta 130 grain FMJ bullets make a great choice for any 38 Special or 357 Magnum hand loader. Made from a swaged lead core and copper jacket, our FMJ bullets are renowned for their consistency and accuracy.

www.precisiondelta.com

I’m careful with flat nose bullets. I’ve made the mistake of using COAL data for one flat nose bullet only to find there was a difference in shank length for another which put me right up against the riflings. It’s what got me into Wilson Pistol Max gages.

That might be your pressure difference although it could be the Lab-radar - altitude or something. One of the Lab guys might know something there.

 

[lordpaxman]

You didn’t say what your COL was and seating depth will make a difference in V. The only loads I have chrono data for is:
6” 686
158gr Rainier HP
7.8gr PP
CCI 500
1.590”
Vavg 1053

Rainier was a plated bullet, but I’m not sure how thick of a plate it really is.
Your lot of PP could be a bit more spicy than the tested data, that’s one of the reasons of a starting load.
Your Labradar is probably ok, I run a few test shots of a known factory load first and compare to what it measured before. But, I was just at a match and two Labs next to each other recorded pretty different velocities which was surprising.
I did test a 125gr Rainier HP with PP and those results showed a Vavg less than than predicted. I didn’t really like the way PP behaved with recoil and smoke and preferred CFE Pistol in .357. I would just consider your starting PP load to be your max.

 

[JHTexas]

Speer gold dots are definitely different. Their regular jacketed bullets seem to fall in line with others in multiple loadings. A 158 jsp or jhp can't have a profoundly different bearing surface, but the cannelure position can be moved a lot.

The bearing surface, differences in drag(plated vs Jacketed), and the amount the projectile shank that seats into the case is what I'm missing to help determine why I'm getting such a different velocity. I don't have any of the projectiles listed in the Speer manual and have never used them in other calibers. I like some of the Alliant powders and that's what got me to this point.

So I went on PD site and, like you say, those are flat nose bullets.

38 Cal 158gr FMJ

Precision Delta 130 grain FMJ bullets make a great choice for any 38 Special or 357 Magnum hand loader. Made from a swaged lead core and copper jacket, our FMJ bullets are renowned for their consistency and accuracy.

www.precisiondelta.com

I’m careful with flat nose bullets. I’ve made the mistake of using COAL data for one flat nose bullet only to find there was a difference in shank length for another which put me right up against the riflings. It’s what got me into Wilson Pistol Max gages.

That might be your pressure difference although it could be the Lab-radar - altitude or something. One of the Lab guys might know something there.

In my case I'm using a revolver, so the Case OAL and Cannelure are driving the COAL. I test for cylinder chambering and the COAL to not exceed the cylinder length.

 

[AJC1]

The bearing surface, differences in drag(plated vs Jacketed), and the amount the projectile shank that seats into the case is what I'm missing to help determine why I'm getting such a different velocity. I don't have any of the projectiles listed in the Speer manual and have never used them in other calibers. I like some of the Alliant powders and that's what got me to this point.


In my case I'm using a revolver, so the Case OAL and Cannelure are driving the COAL. I test for cylinder chambering and the COAL to not exceed the cylinder length.

So your at max Sammi spec not adding pressure that way. So that leaves drag and possibly lubricants.

 

[Charlie98]

When I contacted Alliant tech-support and ask them for suggestions, they basically told me that the load data is only for the Speer projectiles and cannot be used with other jacketed or plated projectiles. So in other words they were no help…

No manufacturer who supplies data is going to green light a change in components away from the published data, to do so would be negligent. Alliant did help, but they just didn't give you the answer you wanted to hear.

Speer gold dots are definitely different. Their regular jacketed bullets seem to fall in line with others in multiple loadings.

That's my spin on it as well. Speer even gives specific data for their GoldDots separately from their other similar bullets, so I'm guessing the differences are significant enough to warrant it. Speer also has separate data for like profile bullets... for example, the 230grn .45 TMJ and their CPRN bullets; while they look very, very similar, they have separate data sets.

 

[JHTexas]

You didn’t say what your COL was and seating depth will make a difference in V. The only loads I have chrono data for is:
6” 686
158gr Rainier HP
7.8gr PP
CCI 500
1.590”
Vavg 1053

The cases are 1.276" OAL and the finished rounds came out to 1.580"COAL. The projectile is in the case .346". I just don't have any of the Speer products to compare to.
Your results also appear to be faster then what's on Alliant's site after you adjust for the lower charge weight and a 6" vs 10" barrel. My calculations show it should be around 900fps and yours was 153fps faster.
My 7.7gr charge after adjusting for charge and barrel length was 885fps and it tested 380fps faster. Too large of a discrepancy on mine to not question the results.
I also know that calculating velocity for lower charge weights and barrel lengths is just an estimate but it's been helpful in the past.

You posting your results and your velocity also being higher makes me wonder about the published data.
In the Speer manual they test 357 Magnum with a 10", 5.643" vented, and 2.5" barrels. It makes you wonder if they posted the correct barrel length tested.

Your lot of PP could be a bit more spicy than the tested data, that’s one of the reasons of a starting load.

I'm using the same lot of Power Pistol powder with 9mm, 45acp, and 10mm and the results are reasonable to the published data. So yes, it may be hotter but not abnormally so.

I did test a 125gr Rainier HP with PP and those results showed a Vavg less than than predicted. I didn’t really like the way PP behaved with recoil and smoke and preferred CFE Pistol in .357. I would just consider your starting PP load to be your max.

I agree, the 7.7gr load was notable too hot and it did show signs on some of the primers, extraction was okay though. The muzzle flash was quite large...

If someone else posts some data using the projectiles I've listed I will do a comparison and post results.
In the meantime I'm going to test the Zero 125gr while waiting on some more feedback.

 

[JHTexas]

AJC1 said:
Speer gold dots are definitely different. Their regular jacketed bullets seem to fall in line with others in multiple loadings.

That's my spin on it as well. Speer even gives specific data for their GoldDots separately from their other similar bullets, so I'm guessing the differences are significant enough to warrant it. Speer also has separate data for like profile bullets... for example, the 230grn .45 TMJ and their CPRN bullets; while they look very, very similar, they have separate data sets.

Yes, I agree. They publish data for the Speer line and don't offer multiple projectile offerings like Hodgdon.

 

[Otto]

Your username suggests that you’re from TX which has experienced record high temperatures this summer. PP is sensitive to that. What were the ambients when you chrono’d your loads?

 

[bihj]

Might also try using Hornady data.

 

[JHTexas]

Your username suggests that you’re from TX which has experienced record high temperatures this summer. PP is sensitive to that. What were the ambients when you chrono’d your loads?

Because of the heat this summer I'm doing all of my testing at an indoor range. The temps are 75 to 79 degrees.

I don't like shooting indoors but it has really helped remove the variables for load development.

 

[JHTexas]

Might also try using Hornady data.

The latest Hornady manual only lists Power Pistol for 110gr XTP. Depending on how the testing goes I might get some to test, but for the heavier ones they have no data.

 

[NMexJim]

The bearing surface, differences in drag(plated vs Jacketed), and the amount the projectile shank that seats into the case is what I'm missing to help determine why I'm getting such a different velocity. I don't have any of the projectiles listed in the Speer manual and have never used them in other calibers. I like some of the Alliant powders and that's what got me to this point.


In my case I'm using a revolver, so the Case OAL and Cannelure are driving the COAL. I test for cylinder chambering and the COAL to not exceed the cylinder length.

Whoops! I think in pistol.

 

[JHTexas]

Listed below is the only comparison I can find using Power Pistol with a non Speer offering.
It shows the Alliant Speer GDHP load compared to Lyman's load for a JHP.
Is it reasonable for a 4" barrel with .5gr less powder to out do a 10" barrel by 134fps?

Given this information I will test the Zero 125gr next and see how it compares to the data listed below.

	Caliber	Bullet	Case	Minimum OAL	Bbl Length	Primer	Powder	Charge Min.	Velocity	Charge Max.	Velocity
				(inches)				(grains)	(fps)	(grains)	(fps)
Alliant	357 Magnum	125gr Speer GDHP	Speer	1.58	10"	CCI 500	Power Pistol	N/A	N/A	10.5	1,345
Lyman 49th	357 Magnum	125gr Jacketed HP	Federal	1.59	4"	SP Magnum	Power Pistol	9	1238	10	1,479

 

[9mmepiphany]

They publish data for the Speer line and don't offer multiple projectile offerings like Hodgdon.

If you think about it for a bit, this makes complete sense.

Why would a bullet manufacturer need to test bullets offered by other manufacturers?
They offer data for the shooter using their bullets. The logical expectation would be that if you choose to use a different manufacturer's bullet, you would look to the other manufacturer to offer data concerning their product.

However, a powder manufacturer would logically offer data that you could use with bullets from several different manufacturers...but they wouldn't offer data using powders other than those they manufacture.

 

[JHTexas]

I have the results from the Zero 125gr and Power Pistol using load data from Lyman. The load seemed warm even on the lowest charge. The primers are okay but are probably close to showing true pressure signs and the case heads are showing a ring(indent) from the firing pin insert. Pictures below:

The load data was for a 4" unvented barrel so I added 100fps for the 6" Colt Python. With that in place it still tested 162fps faster than expected.
Not as bad as the 158gr loads I listed originally but I still don't have the best feeling because it's a larger discrepancy than usual.
Even if I was okay with the increased velocity, I probably would not continue to use this load based on the excessive flash and reduced accuracy.
When I compared this load to the ones I did with CFE-Pistol, the accuracy was better, flash was less, and velocity was within 39fps of expectations for the Zero 125gr.
The CFE-Pistol loads were only used to verify the barrel speed but I ended up liking the loads.
I use Power-Pistol in 9mm, 45 ACP, and 10mm and I'm very happy with the performance and accuracy, especially in 10mm. However, given the lack of load data for Power-Pistol in 357 magnum in the heavier projectiles, it just means there are probably better powder options available.

I didn’t really like the way PP behaved with recoil and smoke and preferred CFE Pistol in .357. I would just consider your starting PP load to be your max.

Thanks for your post and yes I totally agree with you.


Let me know if anyone has velocity input on Speer bullets compared to other Jacketed offerings, I'd appreciate it.
Review the pictures and tell me your thoughts on pressure signs too.

Load#3
Starline Brass 1.276" OAL
COAL 1.540"
CCI 550 SPM
Zero 125gr JSP
Power Pistol 9.0gr
Velocity 1500
ES-60
12x

Jacketed bullets I tested with CFE-Pistol, these all tested within reasonable fps to the listed data using the 6" Python.
Precision Delta FMJ-FP 130gr
Precision Delta FMJ-FP 158gr
Zero JSP 125gr

The Ring(indent) from the Firing Pin Insert doesn't show very well in the photo but it can be felt when running a scribe across it.

 

[lordpaxman]

It’s difficult to see if it’s excessive pressure or just magnum pressure. How was case extraction? I use that and the velocity to halt firing, but usually never get to that point. If your primer flowed completely across the primer cup then I’d say it’s a bit excessive.

 

[AJC1]

I have the results from the Zero 125gr and Power Pistol using load data from Lyman. The load seemed warm even on the lowest charge. The primers are okay but are probably close to showing true pressure signs and the case heads are showing a ring(indent) from the firing pin insert. Pictures below:

The load data was for a 4" unvented barrel so I added 100fps for the 6" Colt Python. With that in place it still tested 162fps faster than expected.
Not as bad as the 158gr loads I listed originally but I still don't have the best feeling because it's a larger discrepancy than usual.
Even if I was okay with the increased velocity, I probably would not continue to use this load based on the excessive flash and reduced accuracy.
When I compared this load to the ones I did with CFE-Pistol, the accuracy was better, flash was less, and velocity was within 39fps of expectations for the Zero 125gr.
The CFE-Pistol loads were only used to verify the barrel speed but I ended up liking the loads.
I use Power-Pistol in 9mm, 45 ACP, and 10mm and I'm very happy with the performance and accuracy, especially in 10mm. However, given the lack of load data for Power-Pistol in 357 magnum in the heavier projectiles, it just means there are probably better powder options available.


Thanks for your post and yes I totally agree with you.


Let me know if anyone has velocity input on Speer bullets compared to other Jacketed offerings, I'd appreciate it.
Review the pictures and tell me your thoughts on pressure signs too.

Load#3
Starline Brass 1.276" OAL
COAL 1.540"
CCI 550 SPM
Zero 125gr JSP
Power Pistol 9.0gr
Velocity 1500
ES-60
12x

Jacketed bullets I tested with CFE-Pistol, these all tested within reasonable fps to the listed data using the 6" Python.
Precision Delta FMJ-FP 130gr
Precision Delta FMJ-FP 158gr
Zero JSP 125gr

The Ring(indent) from the Firing Pin Insert doesn't show very well in the photo but it can be felt when running a scribe across it.
View attachment 1170194

The ring indent you speak of is called primer flow, and has more to do with firing pin fitment than pressure in a lot of guns. A crono speed and extraction are my primary indicators. Most of my cases fall out if I shake the gun a little.

 

[JHTexas]

It’s difficult to see if it’s excessive pressure or just magnum pressure. How was case extraction? I use that and the velocity to halt firing, but usually never get to that point. If your primer flowed completely across the primer cup then I’d say it’s a bit excessive.

Case extraction was normal. It’s mainly the velocity that’s given cause to question the load.

The ring indent you speak of is called primer flow, and has more to do with firing pin fitment than pressure in a lot of guns. A crono speed and extraction are my primary indicators. Most of my cases fall out if I shake the gun a little.

It’s hard to see in the pictures above, but the firing pin frame insert has an outside diameter edge that is creating a small indentation in the case head. I mentioned this just because it’s on this load and not the lighter loads. I don’t think I would even be looking for pressure signs if the velocity was in check. That’s why I appreciate others opinions to see what I might not…

 

[JHTexas]

I did some more digging and found a download that "LiveLife" had added awhile back. It's the Alliant 2004 Load Data Listing.
Thank you to him for that!

So in short, I show a comparison below referencing current Alliant Data, Alliant 2004, and my load results. The 2004 data to my results are what I would expect to see.
I spoke with a representative from Alliant and he stated that no changes have been made to the powder since it was introduced.
He did say that you can't use the data they list for GDHP, UCHP, DCHP, TMJ, etc... for other manufactures FMJ, JHP, JSP, etc...
Thanks to LiveLife we can reference the 2004 Alliant Data and I'll link it below:

2004 Alliant Load Data listed by LiveLife


Thanks to everyone that contributed!

for reference use only:

2004 Alliant