Alloy vs Brinell Confusion

[MI2600]

Please "deconfuse" me. My Lyman book lists a "#2 alloy" for most of their lead bullets. How does relate to brinell? Or does it? Most online sites just list the bullet brinell. If I've been buying 11-12 brinell bullets am I getting #2 alloy?

 

[243winxb]

 

[res45]

Alloys are made up from formulations of two or more types of metal. BHN is the relative hardness of the combination of those metal's in there solid form,the BHN listed above for each type alloys is in the as cast air cooled state but can vary due to the present of each type of metal in the alloy.

The BHN of some alloys such as wheel weights or other metals that contain Antimony can be hardened further by water quenching those bullets straight from the mold. The BHN of those same alloys can also be hardened even further by heat treating the bullets using time and temperature then water quenching.

 

[243winxb]

Lyman method
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

 

[MI2600]

If I'm reading the above chart correctly, the Lyman #2 has a brinell of 15. And, the caveat says this mixture is actually harder than necessary. My usual loads are middle of the road for 45 LC, 45 ACP/AR, and 44 Mag, so I should be good with a brinnel of 12.

 

[res45]

Old Elmer Keith used a 16:1 Lead/Tin alloy in his 44 Mag. loads which is somewhere between 10 / 11 BHN so your good to go. I use a 50/50 mix wheel weight / Lead with a little Tin which give me a BHN of around the same 10 to 11 in my 45 loads.

 

[MEHavey]

Lyman #2 at BN-15 is the quarterhorse of bullet alloys. It does everything well up to/including velocities that reach mid-magnum ranges. (I'm running 1,750 out of a 21" '94Marlin in 32-20 with a plain-base 115gr 311008.)

At the same time, you don't need that hardness in most mid-velocity (e.g., 900fps) 38, 44, 45 applications. BN-10/11 (traditional wheelweights) down to BN-6 will do fine.

 

[MI2600]

Thanks everyone.

 

[springer99]

If I'm reading the above chart correctly, the Lyman #2 has a brinell of 15. And, the caveat says this mixture is actually harder than necessary. My usual loads are middle of the road for 45 LC, 45 ACP/AR, and 44 Mag, so I should be good with a brinnel of 12.

You should be GTG with bullets at about 12 brinnel, as long as they're sized properly for your bore, especially for your 44Mag loads. FWIW, when I started loading cast lead for my 45ACP, I chose(in error) some .451 bullets that were cast as 18BHN. They leaded like crazy since, as it turned out they weren't sized properly. When I finally settled on .452, 8-10BHN cast bullets, my leading problems went away completely.

 

[243winxb]

If I'm reading the above chart correctly, the Lyman #2 has a brinell of 15. And, the caveat says this mixture is actually harder than necessary. My usual loads are middle of the road for 45 LC, 45 ACP/AR, and 44 Mag, so I should be good with a brinnel of 12.

caveat added by me. Fixed it. The chart below was copied from Lyman's complete instructions on how to make cast bullets. It came with a new Lyman mould.

 

[MEHavey]

With the exception of Lyman #2 (which one of the rare actual measurements floating around the internet), bullet "hardness" quotes are in fact waaaaaaaay high.

Actual measured data:


Note how soft the classic lead/tin alloys really are... and still they shoot exceptionally well.
In fact the soft alloys will mitigate against leading since they can bump up under pressure
to fill the grooves But those SuperDooperHard/but slightly undersized alloys just skitter along
like gutter balls and shed lead like the dickens.

 

[Mauser69]

Please "deconfuse" me. My Lyman book lists a "#2 alloy" for most of their lead bullets. How does relate to brinell? Or does it? Most online sites just list the bullet brinell. If I've been buying 11-12 brinell bullets am I getting #2 alloy?

Well, at the risk of causing insult (I REALLY do not intend that, honest), I must suggest that you actually read that excellent manual you have - it not only answers this exact question, but you will be surprised at the number of really interesting things you find. Lots of things you do not know that you do not know - reading that book will go a long way to maybe keeping you from making a mistake or two.

 

[Sunray]

"..."deconfuse" me..." Quit worrying about it.
Lyman #2 is the alloy that Lyman decided in 1980 was the best alloy for casting bullets. It consists of 90% Lead, 5% Tin and 5% Antimony. Some bullets can be 16.6 BHN(aka HB). The Brinell hardness changes according to the content and who made it.
Brinell hardness is just a scale(like Rockwell, Rockwell Superficial, Vickers and Shore) that has nothing to do with the alloy itself.
Pure lead has a BHN(aka HB) of 5.0. Alloyed lead typically can range from 5.0 HB to values in excess of 22.0 HB. Really makes very little difference. Drive a 22.0 HB bullet too fast and you'll get leading sane as you will a swaged 5.0 HBWC.
Like Mauser69 says, read the reference chapters of your manual. Lots and lots of fascinating, but mostly useless info in there.

 

[Reefinmike]

Back before i started powder coating my bullets i often had minor leading issues. Nothing major, just an annoyance. It wasn't until i went with a softer alloy and hotter charge that the leading went away. Now that powdercoating has became the thing, bullet hardness is rarely something to worry about. Standard clip on wheel weights can handle 2,000fps like a champ.

Plain ol clip on ww's(~11bhn) i will use for loads 1500-2,000fps. 1,000-1,500fps loads get 2/3 coww and 1/3 pure lead. Loads under 1,000fps i use half ww, half pure lead. You can use pure lead as well in slow 600-800fps loads. If you push really soft stuff too fast they won't lead the barrel any but they will lose their grip on the rifling and have poor spin. Powder coating is great and absolutely worth the time it takes.

No smoke
No leading
No sticky lube
No gas checks
No quenching
No heat treating
No alloy voodoo magic
Greatly reduced lead exposure

Plus they look really cool

 

[mdi]

Besides a good "general" alloy for bullets, Lyman #2 is a "standard" for Lyman molds (diameter and weight of cast bullets from Lyman molds)...

 

[RealGun]

Well, at the risk of causing insult (I REALLY do not intend that, honest), I must suggest that you actually read that excellent manual you have - it not only answers this exact question, but you will be surprised at the number of really interesting things you find. Lots of things you do not know that you do not know - reading that book will go a long way to maybe keeping you from making a mistake or two.

What manuals might not tell you is why the loads for lead are so understated and not in the context of a specific hardness but do imply pure lead or swaged. They do a disservice to reloaders who use lead bullets and have to rely on subcultural data for real world reloading.

 

[mdi]

No offence, but I have never had to rely on a "sub culture" for reloading data for lead bullets. For me, reloading is a serious undertaking and I rely on no forum expert, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, gun shop guru nor "subculture" for load data...

As a new caster, the Lyman manual served me quite well...

 

[RealGun]

No offence, but I have never had to rely on a "sub culture" for reloading data for lead bullets. For me, reloading is a serious undertaking and I rely on no forum expert, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, gun shop guru nor "subculture" for load data...

As a new caster, the Lyman manual served me quite well...

Yes, that is the only manual I have encountered so far that addresses shooting lead at higher velocities. But try not to go overboard on parsing the word "subculture". That is what reloading forums are all about.

 

[azjohn]

More reading on the subject here.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

 

[Hondo 60]

I appreciate this post as well, especially 243winxb's picture.

I've been casting with just straight wheelweights for all calibers.
Since I'm branching off to a bunch of calibers, I'm gonna have to start selecting different BHNs.