.38 Special Casting questions

[Synack42]

New handloader here -- Cap and Ball revolvers pushed me over the edge.

I've casted round ball a few times now with pure lead from Rotometals for black powder stuff. Decided to make the jump to .38 Special for starters... Recently acquired a Lee hand press, carbide dies, scale, TL358-158-SWC mold, Alox lube...

I realized BHN of pure for C&B is too low... So I did a late night impulse buy of some Rotometals hardball: "Hardball Bullet Casting Alloy consists of 2% tin, 6% antimony and 92% lead. This modern version of the old Lyman #2 is an excellent all-around alloy for most handgun bullets and many higher velocity rifle cartridges. The Brinell Hardness of Hardball Alloy is about 16."

Did I go too high for BHN? I noticed afterwards they offer a 1 to 16 Bullet Alloy with a BHN of 11... Would that have been better, based on this link: From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners

(Should I go ahead and cast and load that hardball ingot?)

Afterwards... Bullet sizing kit from Lee ...required?

-Thanks for any advice

 

[Docendo Discimus]

Is it too hard? Probably not.
Bullet fit and throat diameters will be the deciding factor on that.
Is it harder than you need? Probably.

Assuming you still have some plain lead I would try a 50/50 mix of pure with hardball. This would give a nice round that is pliable and will hold together. (and reduce cost per shot)

I cast most of my 38/357 with 92 6 2 and powdercoat them. This is overkill for plinking with a 38 but I also use the same bullets in a 357 rifle and it keeps things simple for me.

This is my opinion and there are many others on this topic. Hope this helps.

 

[.308 Norma]

Is it too hard? Probably not.
Bullet fit and throat diameters will be the deciding factor on that.
Is it harder than you need? Probably.

+1

Afterwards... Bullet sizing kit from Lee ...required?

Bullet fit and throat diameters will be the deciding factor on that.

Synack42, as Docendo Discimus said, you're probably going to need some method (like a 'bullet sizing kit") of making your bullets "fit" - because they probably won't be exactly the "right" size as they drop from your mold. And it's not like casting round balls for a muzzle loader where you just add "patches" to make sure the bullets fit the barrel.
I've found cast bullets sized to .358" diameter work well in the .38 Special and .357 Magnums I've had. But that's just my experience, and I've never had to deal with oversized or undersized throat diameters in any of the .38s or .357s I've had. Now, undersized throat diameters in couple of .45 Colts I've had - well, there's no need to go down those rabbit holes right now.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Yes, you'll want to size them. As you have a Lee Alox style mold I would get their sizing kit as you don't need to be using a set up which lubes them during the sizing process.

 

[mdi]

For 38 Special cast I would probably cut the "hard ball" with pure, but no more than 50/50, and keep some "hard ball" for 38 +P or 357 Magnum. I use Lee push through sizing kits for all my cast bullets, some custom honed IDs for specific guns. I have been casting for handguns for a while and only for one or two calibers have I used any alloy as hard as the Lyman #2 (aka hard ball), BHN 15, 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum.

For info on any aspect of cast boolits from alloy to lube, sizing, loads, etc. hang out here; https://castboolits.gunloads.com/

 

[Synack42]

Thanks everyone. I'll add the sizing kit to the list of gear. I do have pure lead on hand for BP so I'll leave some in the pot when I add the hardball in.

Casually getting into reloading really does take you down a deep rabbit hole of accessories... Already thinking about balancing while resizing on a hand press, and understanding why bench mount would be nicer... ;-)

 

[dbmjr1]

As mentioned, You'll want a Lee Sizing die to properly size your cast bullets.
That's a great alloy, still:
In my experience you are going to experience difficulties. Primarily leading. I've never had good results using TL bullets and Alox, although I'm sure plenty will say different. Only relating my experiences.

For my first two years I tried to get Tumble lubing to work for me, then I discovered powder coating.
Those TL molds are great for powder coated bullets.
Some Harbor freight powder, an old coffee can and a $20 Walmart toaster oven is how I started.
I don't even clean my guns anymore.


So don't get frustrated if the Alox thing doesn't work out. There's an alternate path for you to take.

I've got that same 158gr Lee TL LSWC mold in a six cavity.

 

[mdi]

Casting your own bullets is close to the most satisfying and fun aspect of reloading. I got hooked many years ago and have a few guns that have never seen a jacketed or plated bullet as long as they have been in my possession...

 

[GooseGestapo]

Depending on the chamber’s on your .38spl revolver, you can probably get by without sizing the Lee mold cast bullets.
I would start out using the Lee liquid alox. But! Cut it with either mineral spirits (NOT the odorless variety) or paint thinner. I usually just fill a new bottle to the top and add a ball bearing or a #12 nut and shake till mixed. It only takes a half teaspoon to coat several hundred bullets. I use either a gallon pail or mixing bowl (buy your own, your wife won’t appreciate you taking hers!) place the bullets in the pail, dribble a teaspoon of lube on them. Swirl and lightly toss until they have a thin varnish like coat. Then set them in a large flat low side box lined with wax paper. I set mine out on the porch in the sun, and let them dry over night.
I’ve shot many thousands of Lee 148gr .358” wadcutters thusly made.
However, I had a buddy that I swapped out some that used different brass (cases) and his wouldn’t chamber in his revolver unless sized .358”.
I use(used) Remington wadcutter cases and they are thinner.
I’ve also shot many thousands of the semi wadcutters, too…

 

[gwpercle]

Thanks everyone. I'll add the sizing kit to the list of gear. I do have pure lead on hand for BP so I'll leave some in the pot when I add the hardball in.

Casually getting into reloading really does take you down a deep rabbit hole of accessories... Already thinking about balancing while resizing on a hand press, and understanding why bench mount would be nicer... ;-)

For 38 Special and most other revolver rounds you can stretch your "Hardball" metal by mixing it 50 - 50 with soft lead . I have discovered a bhn of 8 - 9 is plenty hard enough for standard 38 Special pressures and velocities .
Most people go ...Too Hard with revolver bullets . An undersized hard bullet will lead your barrel like all get out . Here is a generalized revolver bullet truth ...
Bullet size is more important than bullet hardness ... and bullet Lubricant is just as important as bullet size.

The Lee Tumble Lube designed bullets are designed so they don't need sizing ... they never worked too well in any of my revolvers but give them a try in yours ... lots of people cast them , tumble lube, load and shoot with good results ... So give them a go !

I really like the Lee Hand Press , I reload all ny handgun ammo and my 30-30 with one and with the Ram-Prime Unit installed it makes the best hand priming tool ... actually the Hand Press was so Handy I bought a second one ... and I have 5 bench mounted reloading presses !
Gary

 

[AJC1]

I cast the same noe 154 boolit with straight rmr lead around 10 bhn most times a little less, and 1/3 bar of superhard makes 12-13 bhn so that's my magnums. I pc soft rounds warm colors, orange, red, yellow and hard rounds blue and green so far. Works wonderful and not a lot of math and head scratching over mix. The right way to do it would be 100lb ingot batches for consistency....

 

[243winxb]

Recently acquired a Lee hand press, carbide dies, scale, TL358-158-SWC mold, Alox lube...

The TL bullet is designed to be used without sizing, using liquid Alox.

As cast bullet diameter, as bullets drop from the mold, can be controled by the alloy used. By as much as .002"

Alloy consists of 2% tin, 6% antimony and 92% lead.

I would first cast a few bullets to check diameter, with this alloy. If diameter is larger the .358" add some pure lead. This will reduce diameter. The % of antimony in the alloy controls diameter. More antimony= larger diameter.

Lee molds are regulated with an alloy of 10 to 1. Lead & tin.

 

[243winxb]

I'll add the sizing kit to the list of gear.

Lee Bullet Sizer & Punch sizes cast bullets, also seats and crimps gas checks. Use in conjunction with the Breech Lock Bullet Sizer Kit. Fits any Breech Lock enabled reloading press. Lee Liquid Alox, a reloading press and the Breech Lock Bullet Sizer Kit are required to utilize this kit, each sold separately.

https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase
Lee has help and info on casting & more.

 

[Thomasss]

But! Cut it with either mineral spirits (NOT the odorless variety) or paint thinner.

What's the deal on odorless mineral spirits? I've tried it and yes I have problems using it with Alox...but please explain.

 

[lightman]

I'm kind of late to the thread and it looks like everyone has given you some good answers. I agree, hardball is harder than you need. I would cut it 50/50 with some soft lead and shoot a few to see how it works. Fit is more important in my opinion than hardness.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hardball Bullet Casting Alloy consists of 2% tin, 6% antimony and 92% lead. This modern version of the old Lyman #2 is an excellent all-around alloy for most handgun bullets and many higher velocity rifle cartridges. The Brinell Hardness of Hardball Alloy is about 16."

Lyman No 2 is 90-5-5 which Rotometals sells, too.
Their Hardball, 92-6-2, is what most commercial "hard cast" bullets are.
Note that it is half Linotype 84-12-4.

Lee molds are regulated with an alloy of 10 to 1. Lead & tin.

Weird. That is extravagant of tin and not real hard.

Caveat: The only thing I have cast much of is for .38-55-335 out of 20:1.
It has been so long since I cast those .44 full wadcutters I don't remember the metal.
A friend gave me some .30s cast out of Linotype and loaned me the mold which I cast with scrap. Accuracy was as good but at a good bit lower velocity.

 

[243winxb]

Weird. That is extravagant of tin and not real hard.

Quote from Lee "Our bullet mold weights for our rifle and pistol bullet molds are based in a 95% Lead / 5% Tin mixture."

Not 10 to 1 ?

 

[mdi]

I have used alox almost as long as I have been casting, along with a dozen other types of bullet lube. The biggest mistake most new users make is applying too much. A golden brown film is enough. I have used alox on all my handgun bullets (Ranch Dog suggests alox for his bullet designs and I use it on the 240 gr. and 265 gr. RNFP bullets in my 44 Magnums). Hanging out around a few casting forums you will see alox works and is often used to "fix" lube problems; old, dry, cracked, wax lube is often "revived" or lube "running out" by an application of alox. I prefer to dip my bullets in thinned alox rather than tumble them, I just don't like brown bullet noses. I have used odorless mineral spirits, plain stinky mineral spirts, and once even used paint thinner. All worked. I have also warmed alox to thin and applied it to warm bullets. I have dip lubed regular lube groove bullets as well as micro-groove bullets. All worked, some even to Magnum velocities in my 44 Magnums. My 44 Magnum Puma loves Ranch Dog 265 gr RNFP lubed with alox...

 

[Synack42]

If anyone is curious, the casting session seemed to go alright. Definitely some rejects as the mold was warming up, But ended up with around 300 decent ones.

Dumb question... Hodgdon calls for a C.O.L. of 1.475" and I'm coming up around ~1.43" when crimping at the first band. Should I extend it out to the second or would that be considered insignificant?

 

[243winxb]

First band ok, as long as it fits the cylinder. Dont want bullet hitting the barrel.

 

[P Flados]

Seating deeper as stated will cause chamber pressure to increase (I estimated 8% for your case using Quickload). So basically along the lines of using regular 38 data to get +P loads. This should not be a problem for most guns that shoot 38s, but there are some older / less expensive 38s where unknowingly pushing things is not the best idea.

If you want to seat to 1.43" and you want to keep pressures consistent with the published data, I estimated that you should reduce the listed charges by 4%.

Seating in the second groove down is just fine and should get your COAL closer to the published data. This is my recommendation.

Note that if you were working with a smaller case (such as 9 mm), the difference caused by seating this amount deeper would be much bigger.

Also, note that for 38s, I would probably use an alloy that is only 10% to 25% of your hard stuff and the rest would be soft lead. Hard lead is typically much less available locally and as such I consider it more valuable. Call some local scrap metal places to see if the sell lead and ask about prices. Most folks new to casting that then get hooked, quickly discover that there is a big cost improvement when they locate a decent local source.

And for a 38, I would try loading without sizing before investing in a sizer. If they shoot good, it saves you money and effort.

 

[.38 Special]

Lots of good advice in the thread. The Fryxell stuff is fantastic - if you read it all, understand it all, and apply it all, you'll be ahead of most of us.

Beyond that, there's a lot of room between "works safely" and "ideal". In typical 158 .38 loads, both pure lead and hardball will work, and sizing is not necessary. I personally despise tumble-lube bullets and Alox, but they also can be made to work, more-or-less. And seating depth will not be terribly critical, in typical 800 FPS territory. So you can cast those bullets with pure lead, hardball, or any combination thereof, leave them unsized and tumble lube them, and load them with starting data from any recognized manual. They will go bang, they will probably hit the target, and the leading probably won't be too hard to remove. From there, you can keep reading Fryxell, picking brains at THR, and working toward "ideal"...

 

[Jim Watson]

The biggest mistake most new users make is applying too much.

Old NRA tests of .38 wadcutters ended with them applying Alox+beeswax in one lube groove of three.

Dumb question... Hodgdon calls for a C.O.L. of 1.475" and I'm coming up around ~1.43" when crimping at the first band. Should I extend it out to the second or would that be considered insignificant?

And seating depth will not be terribly critical, in typical 800 FPS territory.

Agree. Revolver seating should be regulated by the crimp groove... if you have a conventional revolver bullet. I don't know about stepping down one of those tumble lube bullets and its multiple fine grooves.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Light loads such as 3.0gr of Bullseye won’t matter, but heavier standard loads such as 158gr Semiwadcutters 800+fps will need a modest crimp into the crimp groove to prevent forward migration of the bullets due to recoil. Especially more so with the small compact revolvers. +P will require a firm crimp to prevent the #5 and #6 rounds from binding the cylinder.
Because of the substantially lower pressures of the .38spl, slight differences in seating depth are inconsequential.
Wadcutters are traditionally crimped over the leading edge.
Use the crimp groove. It’s there fo a reason.

 

[mdi]

I cast a lot of that same bullet and crimped into the first band. I did an experiment and seated the bullets shallower, to the second, third or fourth groove, but I could see no difference in performance or accuracy...