Altercation at church children's musical

[Dr_2_B]

Reading uspj's account above reminded me of a sit'n I encountered while serving as a worship pastor. Church can be a surprisingly volatile place. One Christmas during a children's musical I noticed a man I hadn't seen before. I actually seated myself behind him and patted him on the shoulder to say hello. I didn't get much response from him... and I just forgot about him within a minute.

After the service as the people were talking I heard a ruckus. This man was in an altercation with a church member I later discovered was his former father-in-law. He shouted threats & then left.

Well it always creates concern when the person drives home and then returns. Most of you are now thinking what I immediately thought. And in my pocket was nothing but a 22magnum. As soon as I saw him I called the police. I tried to get some other men to come nearby so he would feel outnumbered & just leave. I was surprised that the guys didn't really respond. Maybe they knew something I didn't.

I did a couple things to alleviate the tension that probably weren't wise. I touched him on the shoulder at one point in a friend-gesture. Although probably not smart, it did seem to alleviate some tension - along with my consiliatory tone and such. Well the sit'n didn't get worse & he eventually left before the police arrived.

Couple changes since then. Now I don't carry anything smaller than a 9mm. I also wouldn't touch someone in that sit'n.

 

[Gouranga]

Sounds like you did the best with what you had. Couple idea I can throw on that.

Now I am imagining my church layout. While being prepared for a shootout, should someone else start one is wise, I would see what else you could do to prevent it from getting there. The are usually so many folks that bullets flying already guarantees a no win situation with innocents hurt.

Maybe also carry less lethal (OC, tazer) and if you cannot afford security, involve your men's ministry to help out with the less lethal alternatives. Should something like this happen, a tazer or OC spray can end it before it has a chance to escalate. In our church we were VERY fortunate in that we have a number of off duty police officers who volunteer as armed security. They are VERY visible, carry their duty weapons, taser, and OC.

You hope nothing ever happens and "knock on wood" in the last 10 years I have been there nothing ever has, but IMO, for security you need multiple layers.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

You have to develope a security plan for your church. Most Church groups have someone who does this on either a state or national level.

 

[smince]

I have been involved in church security for 5 years now.

Lot's of info here, especially on their forum:
www.churchsecuritymember.com

 

[Webbj0219]

I wonder how effective a taser can be with someone going postal. I was on the safety commitee at my workplace and one of the options they were considering, with all the workplace shootings recently, was a taser class. I guess there is a company in Maine that does taser training for employees in the event of someone going postal. Wondered if that would be enough? And its probably similiar to a church, which is another no gun zone that often gets shot up.

 

[LegalAlien]

Something like this cannot happen in our church, so I am safe <sarc>
We have our church services in a highschool auditorium and as schools are gun free zones, we would never be faced with a situation of an unhappy gun-toting parishoner, or visitor </sarc off>

 

[bikerdoc]

Listen to Deltaboy and get a security plan. Lots of internet resources.

 

[Jonah71]

I carry CCW at my church. I usually don't from behind the pulpit, but several people in the congregation carry as well. Nobody gives it a second thought.

 

[Erik M]

my father will not carry at church because someone told him that it was against federal law for anyone but the pastor to carry inside a church. hes set in his ways and i cant convince him otherwise. He attends church in the middle of no-where. and by no where i mean at least 2 miles from the nearest house and the phone company wont install 2 miles of cable for the church to have a telephone. I always IWB carry when I attend.

 

[killchain]

Did you touch him after the altercation started?

I wouldn't have done that, in that case. Any physical touching can be construed as aggressive. when I deal with aggressive individuals, I keep my hands in the interview posture and to myself.

My interview posture is to place my hands over my belly button, left hand over right with my thumbs crossed. The reason for this is if the subject tries to attack me, I can shove my clasped hands into their solar plexus and knock their wind away.

I snapped a picture of my hands for reference.

Also, this link... gives the basic jist on interviewing people and how posturing can assist (or defeat) the situation.

http://policelink.monster.com/train...ts-value-during-interviews-and-interrogations

 

[SSN Vet]

Most Church groups have someone who does this on either a state or national level.

Maybe down south they do...

But up north, most of the main line denominations with pyramid management structures are dead or dying. And many of the ones that are still clinging to life are too liberal to even consider such a thing as church security.

Smaller, loosley knit denominations with meager resources at the upper organizational levels, or independant churches, regardless of size, are on their own.

 

[Victor1Echo]

Never touch angry people, it only works on people who want/need to be touched.

 

[smince]

It has been my experience in the past 5 years that most churches won't even consider security measures, even on the smallest scale, until there has been some sort of incident that actually involves them.

We didn't see a need until we had three back-to-back incidents.

 

[Jonah71]

It has been my experience in the past 5 years that most churches won't even consider security measures, even on the smallest scale, until there has been some sort of incident that actually involves them.

We didn't see a need until we had three back-to-back incidents.

I guess we advocate prevention. Or at least the opportunity of such.

 

[boostedxt]

interesting thread...I will have to ask my buddy who is the pastor of my wife and I's church.

joe