Am I A Fascist or Just Plain Un-American?

[rammy]

I have a beretta 92f that is "made in USA" and I have not a problem one out of it. I take that back i did have a problem when I started to reload my own ammo and did not put enough powder in the load to cycle the slide,, but other than that It has been the most reliable pistol I have ever owned. I put about 400 rounds a month through it, 200 rounds twice a month. I will have to say this though I do spend a lot of time in the cleaning stage after the shooting is over, That may make a differance i don know and I am not saying that anyone here doesn't clean their weapon(s) any better then i do. I just feel that a clean weapon is a reliable weapon. that is just my story.

 

[Zak Smith]

I argue that the situation exists because, by and large, people don't care.

For counterexamples, look at SV, STI, Les Baer, Wilson, JP Enterprises, etc. You have to pay - sometimes a lot - for that level of quality.

-z

 

[BerettaNut92]

I think when it's all said and done, Made in America is not beating Made in Taiwan anymore, and that's just a sad statement...

I know, it's pretty pathetic huh.

I'm half-scared that HK is going to build a US factory.

 

[KRAUTGUNNER]

I'm the proud owner of two S&W revolvers.

A 686 6" built in 1989 and a 629 Classic DX 8 3/8" (1994).

Both guns needed some trigger tuning but they are outstanding accurate, rugged and reliable.

I love 'em!!!

 

[444]

Skunk, not trying to stir the pot here, but I would be interested in hearing about your FIRST HAND experiences that have lead you to believe that American firearms are junk.
Details please.

 

[TechBrute]

So you haven't hear about his M1A yet? It's the stuff legends are made of...

 

[BerettaNut92]

First hand:

1. Poorly tensioned Kimber 1911 extractor. Purchased 8/01. Cheap fix, but I expected better for a $959 gun that said 'custom' on it. What a moron I was.

2. M1A stock paint comes off when it contacts anything from the bench, to a magazine, to my hands. Paint would come off the stock in the magwell and get inside the action.

3. M1A muzzle brake was pointing skyward when assembled at the factory. To keep it pointing straight, the muzzlebrake was not fully tightened at the factory.

4. Springfield 1911 magazine release wouldn't release.

5. Springfield 1911 serrations poorly done. Not sure how to describe it, but the surface of the slide between the cuts looks 'crinkly'.

6. Misaligned barrel on US-made Beretta 92FS Vertec. Pointed low and to the left. Photos somewhere on the board.

7. Poor finish on US-made Beretta 92G Elite IIs. Including but not limited to slide stop grating off the lettering on the slide (does not happen with non-Brigadier models) and . I haven't been picky about this gun as it's still my favorite and it's a prototype gun. I can take a closer look at it and gripe more.

8. Wilson KZ45 hammer falling to half-cock every one a thousand, or so, rounds. I sent it to Wilson as a pre-caution (difficult to replicate the problem without slamming it home on an empty slide) and they sent it back to me declaring it was OK. After I sold it to a friend, it went burst fire on him, but thankfully I wasn't there so I guess that doesn't count as first hand.

There may be more, but I can't think of them right now.

 

[Atticus]

I may be mistaken but aren't Springfield Armory products actually manufactured in Brazil?

American products may not be what they used to be (for the same $ anyway) but they are still far better than non-European products in the same price range. Overall, I've had great luck with Kimber, Ruger, Remington, Beretta USA, and especially MARLIN products (great lever rifles!!). 95% of my S&W's have been excellent as well, and the other 5% were worth fixing. Can't say the same for the Taurus or SA products I've tried- they can keep their lifetime warranty- I want a gun that works for life, not one that keeps Fed Ex in business.

European goods definately have an edge in quality, but price is an issue, with CZ being an exception.

 

[444]

Thanks Skunk, that is what I wanted to know.

I don't think Springfield Armory is made in Brasil, I know their 1911 frames are made in Brasil, but I don't think they are assembled there.

The only gun I can think of that I wasn't satisfied with was a Springfield Armory 1911. It wasn't accurate. Oh, I suppose it was good enough for "combat". It could hit an 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper every time at 25 yards. I want a lot more than that.

This whole American vs. the world argument seems really blurred to me. Beretta is an Europeon company that has an American plant. Glock is a Europeon company that has a plant in the US.................

 

[jsalcedo]

Skunk,

All that would leave a bad taste in my mouth about American guns too.

Sounds like a bad case of Springfieldsucksitis.

Shame on Wilson for using substandard MIM parts

 

[Keith]

Well, one of your issues (the Kimber) was a very minor problem and a "cheap fix".

Two other items were on a Brazilian made gun, others on an Italian gun (though admittedly assembled in the US).

The "stock paint" issue is just... odd. If you order a gun with a cheap painted plastic stock, you shouldn't be surprised if you get a cheap painted plastic stock... They still make them in oiled walnut, but you have to pay a little more for quality!

The only real issues you have with American guns is the Wilson problem and the M1A muzzle brake thing. These are certainly valid issues, but I can't imagine why this would sour you on the entire industry.

Keith

 

[Trigger]

I may have to respectfully disagree with some of this.

I think that many American firearms are amoung the finest being made. If you look at AR-15's, many countries around the world use them. The 1911 market has been thriving very well over the last couple of years and the quality has been much improved especially Colt for example. Some of the european gun manufactures tend to be very good at marketing, especially in the early days when they entered the US market and gained share by offering products at a much lower price using very cost effective materials.

I'll give you the finishes, yes, some of them have very good finishes but the processes are hazardous and not allowed in the US. But, Rugers, Smiths, Colts, Kimbers, etc overall have very good products and certainly IMO would rival foreign made products. In general, I think the high quality foreign products are few compared to the other junk various countries are turning out.

Personally I think that our problem here is the limiting factors imposed by politics, legal issues, finanical issues, etc.

I would put a Colt series 70 new production up against any foreign handgun, I'd put an AR or Remington 700 against any as well.

Just my opinion.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Jsalcedo:

Shame on Wilson for using substandard MIM parts

Their CQB series are now MIM-free, as far as I know. I called them and they said they had so many complaints, they went back to the old (tool steel or whatever it's called??) parts. I don't know about their KZ series.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Keith,

Well, one of your issues (the Kimber) was a very minor problem and a "cheap fix".

I wish the manual would have told me to tension the thing as a maintenance item. I was hoping my 'custom' $959 piece would be smooth sailing.

The "stock paint" issue is just... odd. If you order a gun with a cheap painted plastic stock, you shouldn't be surprised if you get a cheap painted plastic stock... They still make them in oiled walnut, but you have to pay a little more for quality!

Indeed odd...it's normal for them to wear, but mine was so abnormal, SA replaced the stock for me. Which reminds me I have to return my junky one in the mail. But for $1350 (MSRP is in the $1500s range) the stock is anything but 'cheap'. Replacement cost from SA factory on the stock is in the $140 range. There are tons of guns out there at the fraction of that price that have synthetic stocks that are just fine.

I say all this with all due respect of course...if I sound bitter it's because of my guns and I'm not nipping at you

 

[Keith]

But for $1350 (MSRP is in the $1500s range) the stock is anything but 'cheap'. Replacement cost from SA factory on the stock is in the $140 range.

Look Skunk,

Plastic stocks contain about a dollars worth of material and they can produce them for next to nothing with injection moulding machines. Asking $140 for one is insane, but... that's what people are willing to pay.

Yet, it's still a piece of spray-painted plastic and wouldn't expect it to be something else.

Keith

 

[TechBrute]

Get a McMillan.

 

[WingZero]

When it comes to the mainstream, it is true that american products suck. Look at the music industry, there is not one song, band, or thought worth listening to on MTv, VH1.... or so forth.
So I agree that in "mass produced" mainsteam firearms, Austria, Germany, and Italy does put out a far superior arm. But when you find that one person that does it with american pride, with american passion, and for the art......... NOTHING beats American!
Try picking up a Kimber, a Caspian,a Les Baer, a Wilson Combat, an Armalite, a McMillan!
Now that is American Superiority!
Just my opinion.......

 

[KRAUTGUNNER]

@ WingZero:

Try picking up a SIG-Sauer P226 X-Zone all stainless steel pistol, or a H&K USP Expert or a Korth revolver or a H&K SL-8 or Sauer, Blaser, Krieghoff or Heym hunting rifles or shotguns.

Now THAT is German superiority!

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Frohickey]

.

 

[TechBrute]

Hmmm... Germany vs the USA... If only we had a way to pit the two counties against each other... like a large war or something... maybe even involve the whole world. Hmmm... oh wait... we've done that. Maybe we'll go 2 out of 3... oh wait... we did that, too...

 

[Frohickey]

Skunk... that that means is that you are a discerning American consumer who is careful about what you buy. When enough of you vote with your wallets, you can expect the manufacturers to change their habits.

That said, I am happy with the fit of my Springfield Armory M1A. Only the op rod was in there tight, I'm not happy with the groups that I get from the rifle, but that is probably me, and not the rifle. Only thing that is not good is the wrinkle-paint that would peel around where metal contacts it.

I've been happy with my Rugers too.

 

[goon]

All the guns I am thinking of the had defects could have been fixed in about fifteen minutes at the factory.
But I don't buy guns to send them back.
I buy them so I can own them and shoot them.
If I had wanted to wait two weeks on a gun, I would have put it on layaway.
Someone mentioned that QC seems to have now been turned over to the customer. I think that is pretty accurate.
The only thing is, some of us don't play that game.
Some of us just sell our defective Kimber of Springfield and NEVER buy one of their guns again.
Then we buy CZs and more C&R's.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Am I the only person who looked that those problems and said "those were problems?"

Well, most of them. the vertec barrel pointing in odd directions is a tad nuts, as well as the funky muzzle brake.

The other problems were non issues or easy fixes, IMHO. I don't know of my expectations are too low, or I just don't care because I can fix things, or what.

 

[444]

This reminds me of the old joke:

You know the definition of an expert ?
Someone that lives over 50 miles away.

 

[c-bag]

I agree - with reservations:

i think this is true in one field: autoloading handguns.

as for the other catagories:

shotguns: i think American products hold their own in this field.
sporting rifles: again, American guns usually offer the best combo of quality and value.
evil black rifles: more evenly matched but the AR-15 is still the gun to beat right now (might change after the AWB)
revolvers: we unquestionably rule here.

which leaves the semi-auto pistol. i think part of this is the fact that the ratio of autoloader to revolver sales has basicly inverted in the U.S. since the 1970's (30%/70% to 70%/30% auto/ rev.)and America has long been a revolver-oriented country while Europe has been more auto-oriented.

and although everyone owes JMB for laying the ground-work i think the europeans have been more ready to try new things such as polymer frames ect.; while we long held to the dogma that "real guns are blued steel and walnut PERIOD" thereby falling behind in the R&D.

which means today we come to a place where the U.S. makers are trying to compete in a market where they're behind the curve and don't have the features/gimmacks the mass market wants.

ON THE OTHER HAND the import laws keep low-end Euro guns out and may wreck the curve. can't think of many new Euro-guns that are even close to the worst we make (jennings, lorcin, ect.)

or maybe the handgun reached perfection in 1911 and the euros just haven't realized it yet.