Am I the only one that does not like "hog leg" grip frames?

[CraigC]

The grip is slipping through my hand because it doesn't fit my hand. I'd like to suggest that I'm probably in a better position to determine how a gun fits my hand than you are.

Unfortunately, the problem does not go away, because the gun does not fit MY hand.

Of course, it 'has' to be the gun's fault. Or, like I said, you simply have not spent enough time with them to become comfortable with the design. If you've been shooting DA's and autos all your life, you're not going to just pick up a single action and shoot it well the first outing.

Do you really think that an inexperienced SA shooter is in a good position to determine how a sixgun fits his hand? Do you need thinner grips? Thicker grips? How big are your hands? What shooting position are you using?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Hopefully Driftwood Johnson will chime in. He can explain it much better than I can.

What's to explain? You pull the trigger, the gun bucks in recoil with the grip rolling in your hand. You reach up with your thumb while the gun is still raised and cock the hammer on the way down.






With your pinky under the grip, the gun rolls right back to where it was before. Keep your pinky under the grip when you pull the trigger again. The trick is not to try to prevent the gun from moving in the hand, allow it to. Don't grip it with a death grip, allow it to move. Those are full house 45 Colt Black Powder loads, they are not mouse farts. Allowing the gun to roll helps shoot it consistently. No regripping is necessary, just let it roll back to where it was.






Repeat four more times.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Of course, it 'has' to be the gun's fault. Or, like I said, you simply have not spent enough time with them to become comfortable with the design. If you've been shooting DA's and autos all your life, you're not going to just pick up a single action and shoot it well the first outing.

Do you really think that an inexperienced SA shooter is in a good position to determine how a sixgun fits his hand? Do you need thinner grips? Thicker grips? How big are your hands? What shooting position are you using?

Speaking of this...

As a first time owner of a Colt SAA this year, I'm learning quite a bit about the differences between this revolver and my other semi-automatics. One in particular is, indeed, the grip.

I'd deduced the grip ergonomics fairly well, but I am experiencing a problem that I rather suspect is related to my ingrained experiences with my pistols.

Let's lay the baseline for everybody by first saying that the Colt SAA is in .45 Colt caliber, 5.5 inch barrel, and has the standard Colt checkered plastic grips. (Those grips will be replaced whenever I get the time to put into crafting some replacements.)

I own, and have shot the heck out of, a Colt 1991A1, Beretta 92FS, and AMT Automag II over the decades.


First thing I noticed about the SAA grip is, of course, the "hog leg" shape, which allows for more movement of the revolver within the grip. I also noticed that the length of the grip does not completely fill the palm of my hand, leaving my pinky to curl under the butt of the grip. Given that I don't have overly large or small hands (I'm 5' 9" tall, 184 pounds), it was my assumption that this was an intentional design of the grip.

Also, I don't consider my grip to be "weak". I'm not a heavy weight lifter or such, but growing up I had my share of carpentry experience since Dad was a carpenter all his life. I can swing a hammer, turn a wrench, flip an 80 pound sack of shingles on my shoulders for a trip up a ladder with no problems.


Now, with that said, I love shooting my SAA and it's my goal to reduce the collector's value down to about $1.25 through shooting. (For those who don't understand, the manual on the SAA states "Firing this revolver will cause immediate extreme loss of collector's value".)


Now my issue:

The bottom, back edge of the butt of the grip sits on the meaty part of my palm. This edge is part of the metal frame of the grip, which is sandwiched between the grip panels. After shooting a hundred rounds or so, I invariably end up with a small blister right there.

I'm thinking that this is likely caused because I have an ingrained pistol grip habit from years of shooting semi-automatics which makes me grip the hog leg firmer than I should for the way it's designed.

I'm also thinking that the checkered plastic factory grips are exacerbating the issue by not allowing the grip to move in the palm of my hand as much as it should when it's fired.

Any advice from people like yourself of Driftwood would be greatly appreciated.

A picture is worth a lot for this, so here's one to illustrate:

 

[Noz]

See if you can find a gun with an Army style grip. It, supposedly was designed to handle the "excessively heavy recoil of the 1860 Army".
It is about 1/4" longer than the Navy/1873 grip and is better for bigger hands.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Are you talking about single piece grips?

 

[BSA1]

Chief,

I accidentally found a "improvement" on the toe of the grip frame, at least for me.

I dropped one of my Vaqueros on the concrete floor in my basement and it landed on the toe dinging it badly enough that I needed to file off the burrs. I slightly rounded the toe in order to get rid of the dings and damaged metal. It only took a few light file strokes and a lick of wet/dry sandpaper. After doing so I was surprised to find out how removing little metal made such a difference. A dab of cold blue touch it up.

Disclaimer: My Vaqueros are at least 15 years old and are well used (both in CAS and CMSA) with the holster wear you would expect on the barrel and cylinder. So as the cold bluing wears off it actually fits the overall appearance of the guns. While I would not hesitate to slightly round the toe of a Ruger or a Colt clone (Uberti) I would have a hard time taking a file to a new Colt SAA

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Heh!

I mentioned my dedicated task to wear the value of my Colt down to about a buck and a quarter, but I'm not yet to the point where I want to file the grip frame!

 

[alexander45]

So a whole thread dedicated to complaining about a style of grip doing exactly what it's supposed to do? The plow handle is supposed to use the energy of the recoil to rotate the gun up into the cocking position, if you are trying to get it to shoot like a semi or double action your doing it wrong and will have a bad time

 

[natman]

Of course, it 'has' to be the gun's fault. Or, like I said, you simply have not spent enough time with them to become comfortable with the design. If you've been shooting DA's and autos all your life, you're not going to just pick up a single action and shoot it well the first outing.

Do you really think that an inexperienced SA shooter is in a good position to determine how a sixgun fits his hand? Do you need thinner grips? Thicker grips? How big are your hands? What shooting position are you using?

I never said it was the gun's fault. I never said that they SA grip can't work for anybody, nor that it's impossible to shoot one. Nor did I jump to the conclusion that it had to be my fault, as you insist on doing.

What I have said all along is that SA grips don't fit ME. And as I've said before I'm in a better position to know whether a certain style of grip happens to fit my hand than you are. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

 

[rswartsell]

Well,

With the astounding variety of handguns available to choose from today, I can't really make a good case to argue with you. There was however a time when a man would select the proper tool for the purpose and then adapt to the best technique for using it.

I personally use at least 3 different (sometimes slightly, sometimes pronounced) handgun shooting techniques (at least modified grip, which leads to, for me, an entire best practices shooting technique).

On the other hand, there is validity in making your collection by deliberate decision have the same controls, ergos and shooting characteristics so that in a time of extremis you are practising KISS (keep it simple for success).

Different strokes for different folks. I love my DA revolvers, but for truly heavy horsepower I prefer my Blackhawk and a technique modified for the gun, not the shooters first impulse. YMMV

P.S.- For example, there are differences in my technique for shooting a 2" Colt DS, and for the 6" Smith Mod 14. Both are DA .38 spl. with a "similar" grip profile.

 

[CraigC]

I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

Can't you see that I'm just trying to help you and anyone else who will find this discussion in a search at any time in the foreseeable future??? Your hand is no different from mine or anyone else's. My point is that the difference is only between your ears and I'm trying to help you overcome that.

 

[silicosys4]

Can't you see that I'm just trying to help you and anyone else who will find this discussion in a search at any time in the foreseeable future??? Your hand is no different from mine or anyone else's. My point is that the difference is only between your ears and I'm trying to help you overcome that.

Hand size does make a difference. Peoples hands are different sizes and have different degrees of ability, strength, and functionality. People are allowed to have opinions contrary to yours, including a dislike of something you yourself are very enamored with
Carry on

 

[owlhoot]

In my humble opinion there are only a couple of things that feel better in the hand than a SAA.

 

[bernie]

As the OP, I am going to jump back in here. Most of the stuff that has been written here about history, how the grip is expected to be used in recoil, etc., I was already aware of. However, nobody knew what my knowledge base is/was, so I appreciate the honest attempt to educate, and I have learned quite a bit. Those that have spoken to technique, showed their firearms, discussed the shooting of single actions, etc, thank you so much for your input, I have enjoyed it. For those that myself or someone else is "complaining", thanks for your help, we obviously do not know what we are doing or what we prefer, and since we do not all think alike, we should simply be ignored. I started this thread to try to get some input and help, and have. I have shot and owned several Single Action revolvers, and several double action revolvers. I am not inexperienced in either. When I shoot the double actions, I typically shoot them single action. Please allow me to redirect this thread somewhat. What I am really asking, is, would a different grip frame (birds head or Bisley), or would a different grip or shooting style offer me a more solid grip on the revolver? I prefer a more solid grip than what the plow handle gives me. That is simply my preference.

 

[BSA1]

What I have said all along is that SA grips don't fit ME. And as I've said before I'm in a better position to know whether a certain style of grip happens to fit my hand than you are. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

I think this is a fair statement.

In regards to the "Bisley" style grip I find the Colt style to be too small at the top for a comfortable grip for me.

The so-called Ruger Bisley Model is out of balance for me with it's oversize and overweight frame.

I find a lot of difference between the grip frames of Colt SAA (and clones) and Ruger Blackhawk / Vaquero.

With the Colt SAA (and clones) the barrel length plays a important role along with the power of the load. The 7 1/2" hog leg has a slightly different feel than the shorter gunfighter model.

The caliber is important also. I have a EMF S.A. in 32-20 with a 7 1/2" barrel. Imagine those itty-bitty 32 caliber holes in the large cylinder and that long barrel to damped recoil. I load my 32-20's on the hot side for knockdown targets and for spotters to hear the bullets ringing the metal targets. Er recoil, what recoil?

Rugers, as we know, is a totally different design. Most of my shooting has been with the Ruger Vaqueros. Having shot many thousands of rounds I have no issues with the size and style of the gun frame.

With all of that said sixgun heaven is a properly tuned Colt SAA. IMHO the lighter weight of the Colt and the design of the grip makes for a fast handling fluid fighting six (er, five) shooter.

However I do tend to agree with the others that you can adjust to shooting single-action revolvers with the right grip and techniques if you put enough practice into it. It opens a whole another world of shooting fun.

 

[Salmoneye]

What I am really asking, is, would a different grip frame (birds head or Bisley), or would a different grip or shooting style offer me a more solid grip on the revolver?

I knew what you were asking, and suggested that if the grips don't work for you that there are any number of after-market variations in shape, and material that should fill your need...

If not, I suggested that you consult a known maker of SA grips and tell them your needs, and see what they can do...

I personally do not like the 'taper' of the stock Ruger SA grips...I want/need them to flare 'more quickly' from the top...This makes them slim at the top, and fatter from the middle to a flat base...The screw needs to be longer...

No one offered what I needed, and I could not afford custom made, so I taught myself how to make grips...

This set I made from Red Cedar...They are on my 'beater', and they fit me like a glove:

 

[natman]

Your hand is no different from mine or anyone else's.

Now this is demonstrably wrong. People's hands come a huge variety of sizes and shapes.

My point is that the difference is only between your ears and I'm trying to help you overcome that.

You can stop now, thanks anyway.

 

[buck460XVR]

A gun is a tool. A handgun is a hand tool. Anyone that has even spent much time with a hammer in their hand or behind a block plane knows that not all hands are alike and not everyone has the same preference as to how they fit in their hand. When a hand tool fits your hand, you get better performance outta that tool. Pretty simple. One reason the shape and ergonomics of hand tools has evolved over the years. Whether or not it's because it's the tool that someone learned on or because it just fits their ergonomics really makes no difference. The fact they have a preference is still there. Whether the preference is because of physical characteristics or "only between your ears " makes no difference either. Just because not everybody has the same preferences as you, is not an insult. Just because you have a preference, does not make your choice the only one for everyone else. I have always had a preference for redheads, I assume it's a "only between your ears " kinda thing. Doubt very much if belittling by folks on internet forums that prefer blonds, is gonna change my mind.

I too prefer the grip angle of DAs over SAs. I also prefer the grip angle of a 1911 over a Glock and the size of a single stack grip over that of a double stack. I also prefer the sight plane over a set of SXS barrels as opposed to a single one. I prefer a semi-grip to a straight grip stock on my rifles. Don't make my ears get red because other folks have a different preference, just the opposite. Makes me happy we have those options and that I'm a little different than everyone one else in the world.

 

[tipoc]

From Bernie:

Please allow me to redirect this thread somewhat. What I am really asking, is, would a different grip frame (birds head or Bisley), or would a different grip or shooting style offer me a more solid grip on the revolver? I prefer a more solid grip than what the plow handle gives me. That is simply my preference.

This is a useful question and the answer in general is yes.

No one can tell you what fits your hand best (though this may change as skill develops). Experience will teach you more than words. Take the time to build the experience.

First though I'm not sure you mentioned what type single action you have. The maker and age, etc.

There are different style grip frames. I mean by this the metal portion of the frame which on some single actions is removable and interchangeable with other style grip frames. A traditional can be exchanged for a Bisley for example. You can buy, on the internet, at a gun show, etc. a different style grip frame and try it out.

I mentioned earlier that Bisley grips were developed out of the international target shooting matches in Bisley England in the 1800s. These tend to roll in the hand much less than the traditional plow handle style.

You can see some of this here...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk..._nkw=bisley+grips+and+grip+frames&_sacat=7301

There are also different style stocks for the many type of grip frames. Over the decades many grip makers have made aftermarket grips of a wide variety of materials for fitting over the frame. Thick at the top thin at the bottom, uniform thickness, oversized to fit particular hands, target stocks, etc.

Here are some resources for researching this some more. Include looking at pics of grips and grip frames.

http://sassnet.com/

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/single-action-army/

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?97-Single-Action-Revolver-Forum

http://rugerforum.net/forums.php

http://singleactions.proboards.com/

Hope this helps,

tipoc

 

[murf]

if you don't want the gun to "roll" in your hand, get a hogue monogrip. this grip is much wider and longer than stock and, therefore, fills the hand more completely than stock. handles heavy recoil much better imo.

if you like it, you can always get a "high dollar" wood grip later.

my large caliber blackhawks have hogue grips. my smaller caliber blackhawks wear "stock" grips. the gun rolling up in my hands, under recoil, doesn't bother me and facilitates thumb cocking (with my off-hand thumb) for the next shot.

i place my pinky finger of my shooting hand under the grip as this automatically lines up the sights for subsequent shots (for me).

the longer hammer throw of the single actions requires patience and helps me with follow-through on the shot.

my hand is the same as yours and is different than yours. good luck on your quest for single-action proficiency.

murf

 

[CraigC]

.....

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

OK, now that we've all aired this out, anybody else care to address MY issue with my Colt SAA?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

RetiredUSNChief:

I'm glad I bought my Colts used, so I won't worry too much about degrading their collector's value. For what it's worth, at one point, I think during early 3rd Gen production, Colt was actually saying that the gun was not meant to be shot.

My 2nd Gens carry plastic checkered grips. They do not prevent the gun from rolling in my hand.



I see you are placing your pinky under the grip. Notice the bit of space you have opened up between the knuckle of your second finger and the rear of the trigger guard. That is good. With heavy recoiling loads, trying to cram one's entire hand onto the grip can press the knuckle against the trigger guard, a sure prescription for a banged up knuckle.

The difference may be that I make no attempt to hold onto the gun firmly. I hold it with enough pressure so it will not fall out of my hand, no more. Even though a Black Powder 45 Colt load is a fairly heavy recoiling load, the gun does not jump out of my hand. It rotates a bit, but my pinky prevents it from rotating any more. The gun then continues to rise a bit while my arm bends at wrist and elbow. Really not a whole lot of motion, either in the palm of my hand or the elbow. Then the gun comes down again and I cock the hammer with my thumb.

Pretty much the same thing with smooth grips on a Ruger Vaquero. Mine are the 'old' model, came with smooth rosewood grips. The gun is a bit heavier, so it does not recoil quite so much.

I do not care for the Ruger version of the Bisley grip, just don't care for it.

This 1st Gen Bisley Colt chambered for 38-40 is pretty comfortable to shoot, but very different than a standard 'hogleg'. The grip is longer and I have a bit of trouble curling my pinky under it, and I do not like cramming my entire hand onto the grip. I find that this grip shape tends to make the gun point down a bit when fired with the normal straight elbow grip. I attribute that to the fact that many 19th Century target shooters fired their pistols with a slightly bent elbow. With a slightly bent elbow the Bisley points straight ahead. The Bisley grip was designed as a target gun, after all.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

OK, this helps a lot.

I do allow the gun to rotate in my grip more, because that just seemed to be the natural way it should work. However, I find myself taking a much firmer grasp on the grip than I probably should, sometimes even to the point of preventing grip motion in my hand during recoil.

When this happens, I really feel the slam of recoil in the meat of my palm, even allowing my arm to take up a lot of the motion. It's very evident to me when this happens.

I figure it's got to be the years of semi-auto shooting that's leading me to tend towards such a firm grasp.


Which means that I need to spend more time at the range shooting and developing the proper grip and range of motion required to correct this problem.

Oh, darn...another excuse to hit the range! Oh, woe is me!




Anyway, I'll pay more attention to relaxing my grip next time. I'll know at the end of a couple or three bags of ammunition whether or not I'm improving by whether or not I'm peeling another layer of callus off the meaty part of my palm.

 

[MartinS]

Anyone who dislikes any part of a hog leg is unAmerican, and may not even be human.