Amazing mediocrity and the range--the arm chair commandos.

[Preacherman]

Well, I'm generally considered a good shot, and I won the class "shoot-offs" in both LFI-2 and LFI-3 with multiple weapons.

That being said, due to a back injury, surgery, and more surgery still to come, I haven't fired a centerfire weapon since February, as my doctor won't allow it - he claims that recoil is transmitted to the spine, which would not be a Good Thing for me at the moment. At present, it looks like if all goes well, I may be able to start "proper" shooting again by mid-2005. All I can practice with at the moment (for short periods, because standing for prolonged periods is very painful) is rimfire.

So, I guess my first few sessions at the range will be pretty sucky... if I get pie-plate-size groups for a while, I suppose I'll be doing well! However, it won't embarrass me to try.

 

[Rexrider]

Rexrider, everyone and everything can't be brand new. Your argument stretches credulity.

Rosstradamus,
Actually, it was not an argument. I was pointing out that Curare did not know what kind of shooters these people are, how much experience they have, or how familure they were with the equipment they were using. He was simply judging them on the status of their targets.

Technique comes first. That is, unless you just don't care.

They cared enough to go to the range and work on it.

12-34hom, tossing a football around with the kids is fun. Range time is preparation for a life-and-death situation. Excellence is all that matters. How would you like it if doctors and nurses turned their CPR certification class into a grab-ass session instead of buckling down and paying attention? Would you blow that off and quip "Well, they're having fun"?

I think you just wiped out your own credibility with that statement. LEOs and Military train for life and death situations. Believe it or not...most people do go the range to have fun. I think it is safe to say we all try to improve our shooting techniques, but we also try to have fun doing it.

Excellence is relative. What defines a good marksman? Someone who can shoot sub 3" groups at 25 yds with a handgun off-hand or draw that handgun and hit COM on 5 targets at 7 yrds in under 3 seconds?

Who is better? The person hitting the bullseye at 500 yrds with a tricked out rifle and scope or the hunter with his plain old Remington dropping a dear in its tracks at 200 yrds?

Actually the worse thing here is I just let myself get sucked into an argument over people who actually went shooting. Those poor people. I guess someone should tell them to give up and sell off their stuff. Simply because they were not good enough.

 

[Valkman]

Hey Preacherman, I'll shoot with ya. I guess I look like a tactical commando shooting my AR at 25 to 50 yards. Of course it's because my bad feet won't let me shoot at 200 - 300 yards, but it's nice to know how people interpret it. Thankfully at out range we get a big bay to ourselves!

 

[Pilgrim]

It is my experience these folks want to shoot better, but just don't know how. Their first teacher was incompetent, and as a result did not know how to correct the common pitfalls that lead to terrible marksmanship. In time, these folks learn to accept their terrible marksmanship, thinking that some people are shooters and others aren't. They unfortunately, fit in the latter category.

If you are a good shooter and don't come across as a "grand exalted poohbah" of the range, and you seem friendly and non-judgmental, they may open up to you and ask you what they are doing wrong. This is where you will find out if you know how to teach.

A good shooter is not necessarily a good teacher, though it helps establish your credibility. A good teacher is one who knows the common mistakes that screw up marksmanship, and knows how to spot them. Finally, a good teacher knows simple drills and exercises for the student to try that will guarantee success.

Success is measured in small steps. If I have a shooter who is all over the paper at ten yards, I count it a success if I can get their groups down to dinner plate size in a short period of time.

A good part of successful teaching is knowing when to quit. I have taught several of my grandkids to shoot. I always watch for signs of fatigue and make sure we quit right after they have shot a target they are proud to take home to show to their mom and dad.

The worst thing you can do is have one of your "students" go home thinking, 'I can't do this.' Your challenge as an instructor is to put in your student's mind the mindset, "I can do this," and feed that belief with minor successes and positive feedback.

It can be done. You can do it.

Pilgrim

 

[Strings]

This just abso-frelling-lutely blows my mind!

Most here seem to follow the concept of "to each their own", but someone has to rag about how others think of their range time?!?!? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

If you think of your range time as "training for when I need my shooting skills to save my life", rock on! I do the same sometimes...

If you think of range time as "let's spend an afternoon seeing how fast we can shoot and miss", have at it! I do the same sometimes...

If you feel the need to deride either camp, please get a life (we're not actually piddling in your Post Toasties)...

 

[Lonestar.45]

Everyone has to start somewhere. Many don't have the experience and skills that others do.

That said, damn, it is hard not to chuckle when I see some armchair commando with more money than sense, come in with a high-dollar pistol and can't hit the broad side of a barn, while I'm plugging away with my no frills cheapo Springfield Armory G.I. and shooting circles around him. You'd think that anyone who spends 2 grand on a pistol (one that is supposedly guaranteed for 1" or less groups) would be able to hit the TARGET. Most newbies don't go around blowing that kind of money on a first pistol, but to each his own I guess.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Sometimes, especially when the guy next to me is shooting a gun with ports or muzzle break, I get out the little Mosin Nagant M44. It doesn't shoot all that great, especially aimed with ancient eyes, but it is loud as heck and makes a huge fireball. Target, shmarget. Gotta love the light and sound show!

Regards.

 

[schizrade]

simply put, some days I just like to sling a bunch of lead down range.

Word! That would be me all the time. But I hold good groups and keep everything in the black. I enjoy "realistic" shooting as I call it.

Sometimes, especially when the guy next to me is shooting a gun with ports or muzzle break, I get out the little Mosin Nagant M44. It doesn't shoot all that great, especially aimed with ancient eyes, but it is loud as heck and makes a huge fireball. Target, shmarget. Gotta love the light and sound show!

Hey that's the same thing I do! Especially with the bayonet out. Man that thing is fun. Shoots so-so, but the fireball and recoil make it sooooo fun!

Some of you need to lighten up. I get weird looks all the time when I go through 50 rounds in a 15 minute period by the "marksmen" types. They are always wondering out loud how much could I possibly hit with any accuracy at high rate of fire. Then they look through their scopes and shut up.



I say.

 

[webley455]

I am with GEM. Merry Christmas!!!!

 

[Kamicosmos]

Everyone is a Beginner at some point. I remember when it was an extreme challenge to just keep all the shots on the target at 10 yards. Now I get frustrated when I throw a couple outside the 9 ring on an 6 inch bull at 15 yards.

I've been shooting for a relatively short span of about 10 years and know enough about shooting and my skills at it to know that I have many many weaknesses.

What's that slogan? No matter how good you are, there is someone out there that's better?

A little humbleness goes along way...

 

[12-34hom]

Rosstradamus, each to his or her own. I truly enjoy the shooting sports and while at the range i like to have fun while doing so.

When i go for weapons qualifications for my department, its still fun - serious-but fun. Having "bragging rites" between qualifications is something all the officers from all the agencies in my county strive for. One of our deputies was once on the state pistol team [and shoots one of those danged revolvers] and whips up on everybody. I've come close to beating him.... Ah well = theres always next time..

But needless to say its always good natured competition, regardless of the outcome.

Merry Christmas!

12-34hom.

 

[Maxinquaye]

I was once told that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all.

These people were obviously SPORT shooting. If a guy wants to blow $2K on a pistol and he's not a great shot, oh well. I feel the same way when I see a Porsche with an auto tranny...but I mind my own business.

 

[Curare]

I was taught the same thing as well. I was also taught how to avoid negligent discharges--thankfully I've remembered the later.

 

[Shovelhead]

....And not everyone cruising down the highway in a Porsche can drive like Mario Andretti.

 

[Phil Ca]

For many years police used Bullseye targets and then went to the combat style silouhette targets. some of the expert Bullsye target shooters were not so good on the combat targets. For years I trained my officers on the USSS man sized targets and getting used to the Bullseye targets is a PITA. Some ranges will not allow he man sized targets since it looks offensive to some people.

 

[borderguy]

When I first became an LEO I had to transition from a Glock to a DAO Beretta. So I was one of those LEO types that did slow shooting for a while. Like my instructor said. Get smooth. After you get smooth, then you can get fast.

As to the others at the range. Unless they are unsafe, let em do whatever they want. I'll say something if I think it would help. Like the guy who was teaching his girlfriend to shoot with a .41 Mag. I offered my 686 and wadcutters and she actually enjoyed shooting then.

As fir the Kimber, it may have been a gift and the shooters first time at the range. These gays I am far more inclined to encourage people to shoot rather than being critical of those participating.

 

[goon]

I have seen most of the above at the range and I was glad to see them there. I generally shoot a few rounds from any gun that anyone else has at the range and I let them shoot a mag or so through my AK, FAL, SIG, whatever. I have gotten to shoot quite a few guns this way.

Had I been there, I could have tried out a scoped deer rifle and maybe have helped an inexperienced shooter get his rifle on target. I could have tried out a Wilson and a Ruger and gotten an idea of how they feel and handle with live ammo. I could have showed up a couple of cops and then spent the rest of the afternoon BSing with them as we all got more much needed practice in with our handguns.
Why only look at the negative?

All kinds of people like to go to the range and I do whatever I can to aid them in that. I would never do anything to try to discourage a new, inexperienced, or out of practice shooter from putting some lead downrange.

 

[Tierhog]

Wow, shooters complaining about shooters. Sad, very sad. Think I will head out to the range and ....oh just forget it. What's the point anyway?

 

[trapshooter]

For those that are like Bryan P and Hunter Rose , look me up if you are ever in southern Missouri. I'll shoot with you guys anytime. And probably lose any sidebets.

I think there are different kinds of shooting. There is serious, skill-building range work, then there is just exercising the blaster. I don't mind a little ribbing, but I'm certain there are lots of folks out there on this board who can shoot rings around me. I'd hate to think that they wouldn't shoot with me, because how in the heck would I get better otherwise? You don't learn anything from people who are no better than you, or worse. You only learn from those who know more, or at least different. Like I said, ribbing is one thing, ridicule, on the other hand, is counter-productive.

 

[Maxinquaye]

"I was taught the same thing as well. I was also taught how to avoid negligent discharges--thankfully I've remembered the later."

Um, you mean the latter?

Nice to know you have the time to read my old posts. AD/ND = lesson you haven't learned yet. Hope you never have to, but it's not a reason to feel superior. Mostly just makes me look at you like I do new motorcycle riders who have never dropped their bike...and brag about it.

 

[Wayne02]

I love it when the accuracy elite get all up on their high horse, especially when it comes with a dose of equipment envy.

Leave them alone, they are just enjoying the sport. You are obviously more worried about their accuracy then they are... yet they seem to be having fun. If you envy their equipment then that should be incentive to save up and buy your own. Then you could really shoot circles around them.....

Wayne

 

[Rexrider]

For those that are like Bryan P and Hunter Rose , look me up if you are ever in southern Missouri. I'll shoot with you guys anytime. And probably lose any sidebets.

What about me? Can't I go too? I promise I only want to have fun and I won't outshoot anybody. No, seriously...I probably won't

 

[Deavis]

Man, Curare, you shouldn't be ashamed of those people's shooting skill, you should be ashamed of yourself for not helping them out. I infer from your tone that you are a great shot, so why didin't you help them improve their technique?

Last time I was at a public range there was a guy there with his girl shooting his/her brand new Glock. He kept saying the sights were off and was trying to teach her to shoot. His mechanics weren't exactly Brian Enos style to say the least! I was friendly and offered to let her shoot a gun I had in exchange for shooting hers. I said I had never shot a G27 before and wanted to try it out (small white lie). So she shoots mine, I give her a little coaching to help out.

Then I get hers "Watch out it shoots way left" I'm told. First shot is a little bit right of the target I'm aiming at. He thinks I'm aiming at the bull, "little left, eh?" Second shot, I put one through the center of the 2" stick on spot at 15 yards. Great shot? HECK NO! However, after that I got a captive audience to discuss some of the finer points of marksmanship such as proper grip, sight picture, trigger control, and the surprise trigger break.

As a matter of fact, I still remember the man who "had never seen a Taurus revolver" that taught me to shoot that huge .357 Magnum revolver I borrowed from my Dad. Even showed me the ins and outs of reloading.

Help 'em out there Clint, we aren't all naturally talented.

 

[B36]

Writers

Are you certain this was not a writers convention ??

Agree with many others, at least they were shooting and doing so in a safe place.

 

[Bruce H]

How many here play call your shot? Calling a specific place then hitting it is a lot harder than center target X ring. Just because everything isn't in a tight little center group doesn't mean a whole lot. Never Assume because of what happens.