Ambitious build

Status
Not open for further replies.
45Shooter13

45Shooter13

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
15
Location
Verona, Pennsylvania
Looking for detailed plans for a 3" compact 1911. I plan on scratch building a Damascus steel matched pair of 3" barreled compact 1911 45's, one a true lefty. If anyone knows where to point me to get the information I need to build these handguns I would be very grateful. Right now I am in the process of building my own workshop using the books written by David J. Gingery. (I'm on book 2 now.) Hopefully by the time I finish building the Milling machine I'll have the plans. Thanks (By the way son of a Gunsmith and amateur Gunsmith myself.)
 
That’s quite a lofty goal. I’m impressed simply by the fact that your willing to give it a shot.

my suggestion would be to buy one of what you want or as close as possible and then copy it with tweaks to fit your personal tastes.
 
Not clear on what you mean by Damascus steel. Original means of manufacture makes Damascus steel very weak because of inevitable slag inclusions in the manufacturing process.

There used to be warnings about using Damascus-barreled shotguns. "Fluid steel" was the description for the safe shotgun barrels.

Or does "Damascus steel" nowadays just mean imprinted with a pretty Damascus-like finish?

Sorry, but as I say, "Damascus Steel" may mean something entirely different to me from what you mean.

Terry, 230RN
 
Last edited:
WestKentucky said:
That’s quite a lofty goal. I’m impressed simply by the fact that your willing to give it a shot.

my suggestion would be to buy one of what you want or as close as possible and then copy it with tweaks to fit your personal tastes.
Click to expand...
Might just do that with my Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry Ii.
 
230RN said:
Not clear on what you mean by Damascus steel. Original means of manufacture makes Damascus steel very weak because of inevitable slag inclusions in the manufacturing process.

There used to be warnings about using Damascus-barreled shotguns. "Fluid steel" was the description for the safe shotgun barrels.

Or does "Damascus steel" nowadays just mean imprinted with a pretty Damascus-like finish?

Sorry, but as I say, "Damascus Steel" may mean something entirely different to me from what you mean.

Terry, 230RN
Click to expand...
 
I read this:

https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/damascus-barreled-shotguns-are-safe-to-shoot/

Including this:
“A third issue resulting in failed inspections relates to chokes. Most vintage guns had tighter chokes. Improved cylinder and modified were common, and modified and full were as well. If your candidate has cylinder and skeet chokes."

Which sounded like "everything from A to Z is common." Great logic, eh?

The whole article sounded like a merchandising puff piece.

Sorry about that, folks.

I have a hard time understanding how taking varied kinds of iron-based alloys, heating them, pounding them together (in air), folding and repounding them again and again and subjecting them to enormous pressure can result in a product that does not contain slag and oxide weak spots (which result in the pretty patterns), with hardnesses which can differ from spot to spot.

The final product would be pretty, but subject to the numerous precautions outlined in that article.

Time was that in fact, fake Damascus shotgun barrels were made out of fluid steel with those pretty patterns etched into the steel chemically. The jocular way to tell the difference was to fire a modern shotgun shell in them. If the barrel burst, it was true Damascus. If not, it probably wasn't.

OK, 1911 frames and other items such as knives (and barrel lug wrenches) may be "strong enough," but I just can't see true Damascus steel being as strong in the pressure vessel parts of a gun as "fluid" steel because of the inherent lack of homogeneity.

Terry, 230RN
 
Last edited:
Caspian Arms has been offering Damascus slides and other parts for years. I read something about the process for making the modern Damascus and it was significantly different from the original method. I believe a Swedish company makes the blanks for them.
Caspian also offers lefty frames.
 
230RN said:
I read this:

https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/damascus-barreled-shotguns-are-safe-to-shoot/

Including this:
“A third issue resulting in failed inspections relates to chokes. Most vintage guns had tighter chokes. Improved cylinder and modified were common, and modified and full were as well. If your candidate has cylinder and skeet chokes."

Which sounded like "everything from A to Z is common." Great logic, eh?

The whole article sounded like a merchandising puff piece.

Sorry about that, folks.

I have a hard time understanding how taking varied kinds of iron-based alloys, heating them, pounding them together (in air), folding and repounding them again and again and subjecting them to enormous pressure can result in a product that does not contain slag and oxide weak spots (which result in the pretty patterns), with hardnesses which can differ from spot to spot.

The final product would be pretty, but subject to the numerous precautions outlined in that article.

Time was that in fact, fake Damascus shotgun barrels were made out of fluid steel with those pretty patterns etched into the steel chemically. The jocular way to tell the difference was to fire a modern shotgun shell in them. If the barrel burst, it was true Damascus. If not, it probably wasn't.

OK, 1911 frames and other items such as knives (and barrel lug wrenches) may be "strong enough," but I just can't see true Damascus steel being as strong in the pressure vessel parts of a gun as "fluid" steel because of the inherent lack of homogeneity.

Terry, 230RN
Click to expand...
 
230RN, I'm not going to be using Damascus steel for the barrel of my 1911's so the issue is moot. Very interesting article though, I enjoyed reading it. Maybe someday I may tackle making one when my forging skills are better.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I would thumbs down making the barrel out of Damascus steel.

That said there are lots of pistols that have plastic “frames”, so I think steel would be just fine.

Be sure to start a detailed thread documenting your project, with lots of photos.
 
I think you are adding a layer of difficulty with a sawn off 1911 pattern gun. Maybe you can reverse engineer your Kimber. Otherwise a full size Government model would probably be easier to make work.


Here are a couple of other manufacturers of Damascus guns
https://stdgun.com/1911-damascus-steel/
https://christensenarms.com/tiseries/ Damascus slide, titanium receiver. I wonder if they are using Caspian parts. Caspian Damasteel is an entirely different product. It is a Swedish powder metal product, not at all like forge welded "shotgun" Damascus and the patterns are different. Caspian makes titanium receivers, too.
 
Well, it is relevant, not so much in terms of the 1911, which has a very firm lockup with the stress distributed from the breech face through a substantial amount of steel.

But, for example, the Beretta M9 is comparatively weak from the wedge lockup back to the breech and they in fact had some trouble with the slides separating and the back half coming back at the shooter. Often enough that they changed the heat treatment (and I think the steel) involved in the slides. And this was with "fluid steel."

In addition, if you look at the lockup of a lot of semis, the tensions involved between the breech and the locking surfaces are distributed through relatively thin portions of the slide. I would hate to think the popularity of Damascus steel would transfer over to other, weaker guns.

So defend Damascus all you want, I don't care.

But it somehow reminds me of the "dumb blonde" meme. Pretty but useless and possibly dangerous.

I say again, and I ain't takin' it back:

"
I have a hard time understanding how taking varied kinds of iron-based alloys, heating them, pounding them together (in air), folding and repounding them again and again and subjecting them to enormous pressure can result in a product that does not contain slag and oxide weak spots (which result in the pretty patterns), with hardnesses which can differ from spot to spot.
"

Sorry about that, friends.

Terry, 230RN
 
Last edited:
Oh yes I will definitely be doing just that when I start the build! Though it won't be for some time yet, I still have to start working on the Foundry then start working on the pieces for the Lathe. That won't be until the Spring at the earliest. If you want me to post progress on those projects let me know.
 
Last edited:
*Update* I'm going to be using my Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry ll as the model for both of my builds as it will be easier to replicate it than doing the conversion from the full size 1911 plans to 3", and make all the necessary changes. Also it will be easier to flip for the true Lefty conversion. And I really like the Kimber setup.
 
Last edited:
45Shooter13 said:
Oh yes I will definitely be doing just that when I start the build! Though it won't be for some time yet, I still have to start working on the Foundry then start working on the pieces for the Lathe. That won't be until the Spring at the earliest. If you want me to post progress on those projects let me know.
Click to expand...

I would be interested in them too.
 
45Shooter13 said:
*Update* I'm going to be using my Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry ll as the model for both of my builds as it will be easier to replicate it than doing the conversion from the full size 1911 plans to 3", and make all the necessary changes. Also it will be easier to flip for the true Lefty conversion. And I really like the Kimber setup.
Click to expand...

Both. The internal dimensions will be the same on critical things like pin hole placement, magazine well size and location, rail and ramp measurements, that I can think of offhand. The dwarf gun will have a different recoil spring abutment location as well as the obvious stuff like butt and dustcover length. The short slide will differ mainly in recoil spring tunnel dimensions.

Are you going to put in the Kimber II's Swartz type firing pin obstruction?
 
Jim Watson said:
Both. The internal dimensions will be the same on critical things like pin hole placement, magazine well size and location, rail and ramp measurements, that I can think of offhand. The dwarf gun will have a different recoil spring abutment location as well as the obvious stuff like butt and dustcover length. The short slide will differ mainly in recoil spring tunnel dimensions.

Are you going to put in the Kimber II's Swartz type firing pin obstruction?[/QU
Click to expand...
Jim Watson said:
Both. The internal dimensions will be the same on critical things like pin hole placement, magazine well size and location, rail and ramp measurements, that I can think of offhand. The dwarf gun will have a different recoil spring abutment location as well as the obvious stuff like butt and dustcover length. The short slide will differ mainly in recoil spring tunnel dimensions.

Are you going to put in the Kimber II's Swartz type firing pin obstruction?
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm going to be doing an exact replica of my Kimber, so everything it has will be in the Damascus copy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Rockrivr1
  • Locked
Recommendation on quality 1911 bbl for new build
Replies
5
Views
649
jad0110
J
C
  • Locked
Building a Custom Bolt Gun, M98 Action
Replies
15
Views
2K
cooltouch
C
T
  • Locked
1911 Build
Replies
14
Views
625
tyeo098
T
P
  • Locked
1911 Target Build
Replies
11
Views
1K
Powersgt
P
T
  • Locked
Building a 22WMR from scratch
Replies
10
Views
1K
jmorris
jmorris
Back
Top