America Buffalo Cartridges...onyl the 45-70 has been modernized?? Why???

[saturno_v]

America Buffalo Cartridges...only the 45-70 has been modernized?? Why???

A question for the experts....any of the old black powder buffalo cartridges, other than the 45-70, have ever been converted to high pressure smokeless powder rounds?? And if not, why??

From this Chuck Hawks article "Buffalo Cartridges of the American Frontier" http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm even the most powerful of these rounds cannot match a modernized high pressure 45-70 cartridge....no one of them (accordingly with the ballistic data in Chuck Hawks article) can even get close to 3000 ft/lb and many of them have energy levels comparable to the "anemic" 30-30 Winchester.

 

[jerkface11]

The other cartridges have too much space for smokeless powder. Loaded with black they were more powerful than .30-30 though Hawks as usual is just plain wrong.

 

[rcmodel]

All speculation mind you, but:
Much of the brass is not designed to stand the kind of pressures involved.

And none of the old rifles were either.

A modern reproduction Sharps or Ruger #1 could be so loaded I suppose, but nobody does it commercially that I know of.

Probably a legal road-block now in the event someone stuck a 40,000 PSI 50-120 Sharps in a 120 year old rifle.

Many of the comparable British black-powder sporting rounds did transition to smokeless powder with some increase in performance during the heyday of African hunting.

But by the time the American Buffalo guns reached their highest development, the Buffalo & the Buffalo hunters were gone, and high velocity small bores were taking over in the military and in the American hunting fields.

Today, the ammo companies are much more interested in designing cartridge-of-the-month magnums then further developing old black-powder rounds for which few guns exist.

rcmodel

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Isn't the .375 Winchester just a hot-loaded .38-55?

 

[rcmodel]

yes, but not very hot!

You could also include the .38 Special, .45 Colt, and other black-powder revolver rounds too I suppose.

rc

 

[saturno_v]

Much of the brass is not designed to stand the kind of pressures involved.

rcmodel,

A question...the brass was somewhat "reworked" on the 45-70 to withstand modern loadings??

The other cartridges have too much space for smokeless powder

Jerkface

Interesting explanation...so there is too much space in the case to make reliable and efficient ignition of much smaller quantities of smokeless powder???
As we all know, smokeless is a lot more condensed than black powder...so is this one of the technical explanation???

 

[jerkface11]

You just don't need all that case volume with smokeless. So why bother with it? Long straight walled cases work great for black though.

 

[Threeband]

Because the .45-70 is NOT primarily a buffalo cartridge.

It was our Military cartridge for many, many years.

The buffalo were mostly gone by 1880, but the trapdoor Springfield soldiered on into the 20th century, as a front-line combat rifle. Sure, the Regulars had Krags, but they were outnumbered by National Guard units with Trapdoors and Rolling Blocks, all belching out black-powder smoke at those wily Moros.

Huge numbers of those trapdoors passed into civilian hands, and were as common as dirt until recently.

That's why the round survived. Because it's not a buffalo round at all.

 

[rcmodel]

A question...the brass was somewhat "reworked" on the 45-70 to withstand modern loadings??

Yes.
The 45-70 case has went through several different manufacturing designs and methods since 1873.

Some of the earliest ones even used an inside cup primer.
45-70 cartridges with this Benet primer system looked like a rimfire cartridge as the primer wasn't visable on the outside of the case.

Todays brass is thicker, stronger, and made of better metal then anything available back then.

It also has less internal volume due to a thicker case web and primer cup design.

rc

 

[saturno_v]

Because the .45-70 is NOT primarily a buffalo cartridge.

It was our Military cartridge for many, many years.

The buffalo were mostly gone by 1880, but the trapdoor Springfield soldiered on into the 20th century, as a front-line combat rifle. Sure, the Regulars had Krags, but they were outnumbered by National Guard units with Trapdoors and Rolling Blocks, all belching out black-powder smoke at those wily Moros.

Huge numbers of those trapdoors passed into civilian hands, and were as common as dirt until recently.

That's why the round survived. Because it's not a buffalo round at all.

Threeband

Sounds like a very good explanation to me.....it makes lot of sense...yes the 45-70 was the standard US military round before the short lived 30-40 Krag.

 

[Speedo66]

I've got some early black powder .38-40 (.38 WCF) cartidges that seem to be balloon heads.

Was the 45-70 ever a balloon head cartridge?

 

[kragluver]

Yes, the 45-70 was once a balloon head design.

I think the Chuck Hawks quote explains it well. What would you do with a smokeless 45-110?? The 45-70 with smokeless is already more powerful. If you want max power -- go to .458 Win Mag -- much more powerful than any of the old "Buffalo" cartridges and smaller/lighter to boot.

Ah - .45-70 - you aren't shooting a rifle, you're shooting history

 

[FredT]

I'd bet that the .50-70 killed more buffs than the .45-70.

 

[Bezoar]

thing is this folks, they didnt always change a cartridge that worked already.
Besides, their is nothing to really change about the old bp cartridges used for buffalo. If it can put a nice lead bullet through a 1500 bison at 800 yards, and keep on going. its not going to be perfected.

 

[ArmedBear]

I'd bet that the .50-70 killed more buffs than the .45-70.

Wrong.

The .45-70 was all that was necessary, hence Sharps only produced .45-70 in any quantities after the first few years of the buffalo slaughter of the 1870s.

I dropped a buffalo in one shot from a black powder .45-70. Another guy in the hunting party took 4 or 5 shots with his .50-90. It might have been luck, either way, but I can say from experience that the cartridge made no difference.

 

[alemonkey]

As others have said, anything bigger than 45-70 doesn't lend itself well to smokeless powder. Too much case volume. The 45-70 on the other hand works superbly with both black and smokeless powder. But real men shoot black

Also as others mentioned, the 45-70 was a hugely popular chambering. There were relatively few buffalo guns in other calibers, so there just wasn't the incentive to adapt them.

I wonder how Trail Boss would work in the bigger .45's? It's designed to be "fluffy" and take up a lot of space.

 

[Harve Curry]

In the late 1860's Buffalo Bill Cody's Lucrecia Borgiea(spl?) Trapdoor rifle , 50-70, that he also refered to as his needle gun. He killed more buffalo with that single shot then others with repeaters.
The 50-70 came out before the 45-70. I don't think it is as powerful as a 45-70 because of bullet weight and ballistic coefficient.
Like others mentioned, the 45-70 case is about as big as you can get and still use smokeless ppowders. My favorite load is Hercules 2400 and a 330gr Lyman/gould bullet @ 1500 fps. Another good powder is SR-4759. The case sizes of 50-70, and 56-50/56-56 Spencer cartridges, also adapt well to a few smokeless powders.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

You just don't need all that case volume with smokeless. So why bother with it? Long straight walled cases work great for black though.

Didn't seem to hurt the .44 Russian and its descendents. The .38 Special has way more case capacity than the 9mm, despite their coming out at the same time, and the 9mm having more juice.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Didn't seem to hurt the .44 Russian and its descendents. The .38 Special has way more case capacity than the 9mm, despite their coming out at the same time, and the 9mm having more juice.

yet those handgun cartridges don't have nearly the case capacity of 45/110 there's literally NO comparison at all,

Low expansion ratio combined with a low pressure rating means that faster powders in charges that'll keep pressures in check dissapear in a 45/110 case with very low load densities, and sower powders that fill the case are too slow to give good performance.

 

[Harve Curry]

I guess to answer the OP's question, the 45-70 is about as long a cartridge case as you can get and still have efficient burning of smokless powder. Combined with being the US military cartidge for about 20 years, that's why it stayed popular.

 

[buttrap]

Just look at the numbers of 45-70 sharps guns made and the price of them then too. The clasic what we now call a shapes buff gun was like 125 bucks a pop and about as common as a hens tooth vs the 50-70 and spencer guns. My bet is more buffs where killed with even the springfeild .58 than 45-70s.

 

[redneck2]

not one of them (accordingly with the ballistic data in Chuck Hawks article) can even get close to 3000 ft/lb and many of them have energy levels comparable to the "anemic" 30-30 Winchester.

I don't know how someone can be as universally wrong and still be as widely quoted as Hawks. If you are foolish enough to think the .45-70 is anemic, go over to Box-o-Truth website and see how it does in the real world. Penetration is astounding to say the least.

The dimensions of my .45-90 are almost identical to a .458 Win Mag. I compared them in The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions. My 1885 BPCR will handle modern pressures, but I'm thinking a few pulls of the trigger with that combination would adjust your attitude accordingly.

Guys complain enough about the recoil of a .45-70 at 13k. Try a few at 50k and see how it feels. You first.

 

[jerkface11]

I still can't get over Hawks saying a cartridge burning 110!!grains of black powder behind a 500 grain bullet is equal to the .30-30.

 

[onebigelf]

I kinda like the 45-70 it's like hitting something with a shopping cart at 1200fps.

John

 

[Pokyman]

There are numerous reasons that the 45-70 has survived the transition from black to smokeless powder. To make the statement that it is the only cartridge to do so is not accurate. There are several that have made the transition as well, the 38-55 is one of several cartridges to do so.
Statements from other responders about cartridge strength has merit at least in regards to brass cartridges of the black powder era. These early cartridges were made with the balloon head design. For those of you not familiar with the term balloon head, think of a 22 rim fire. Early rim fire as well as center fire were made with the same design concept as todays 22 rf. Case walls were much thinner than todays cartridges and would not withstand todays pressures generated by smokeless powder.
Duplicating black powder era loads using todays brass is difficult to do without heavy compression of powder. Part of the reason for this is the new cases have thicker walls and heads thus having less powder capacity than the old brass did.
Comments have been made about the 45-70 being a military round would also prove to be a good reason for survival. The popularity of the 30-06 would help support this arguement.
Another reason for survival that is never talked about is the 45-70's use as a means of firing the guns on naval vessels. The 16" and 8" guns on battleships and other ships were fired electrically, using the 45-70 blank cartridge as a backup in case of malfunction of the primary firing mechanism. The 45-70 was still in use at least until the last battleship was retired.
When the SS New Jersey was being refitted for active duty and sent to Viet Nam, I was one of the crew that worked on getting a battery of 16" 50 caliber guns ready for this old gun fighter. I am probably one of a few still alive that know anything about those guns and how to make them. If anyone is interested in knowing more about these guns and how they are made, make a comment and possibly the subject can be moved to an appropriate thread for a more in depth discussion.
In a strong action, the 45-70 can be loaded into a very potent cartridge that approaches the power of a 458 Win. mag.
The 45-90 (45 2.4) is a cartridge that has similar dimensions as some of the old double rifle cartridges produced in Britian and Europe for use in India and Africa. Using modern brass and used in firearms designed to withstand the added chamber pressures, this cartrige would certainly be equal to almost any animal walking the face of the earth.
The main reason most black powder cartridges did not survive the transition was because of very large powder capacity of the brass and/or firearms that would not withstand the added chamber pressure that smokeless powder develops.