America Buffalo Cartridges...onyl the 45-70 has been modernized?? Why???

[Jim Watson]

Class #1 is standard, safe to use in anything. Your basic Remington and Winchester loads are going to be these. Use in anything but museum pieces.
Class #2 is high power, safe only in a strong firearm design, like the Marlin. Very similar to the 450 marlin. Not to be used with a new replica of 1880s guns
Class #3 is super high power, only usable in Ruger Single Shots and very rugged bolt action rifles. These duplicate the 458 winchester magnum.

A brand new Marlin can not handle the 458 winmang pressures, nor can it handle 'class 3' 45-70 loads

Everybody has a different definition of the classifications. This one is very high.

To give some numbers,
The .450 Marlin is loaded by Hodgdon to 42,600 psi, the SAAMI utter maximum is probably a bit over that.
They show .45-70 loaded three ways:
Trapdoor - 28,000 CUP (Contrary to Accurate Arms recommendations I cited above)
Lever Action - 40,000 CUP
Modern Rifles - 50,000 CUP

Looking at their loads and velocities, this is slightly above the ratings established by Ken Waters in 1974, the first I saw of anybody breaking down the guns and appropriate loads into categories. Sure, Elmer knew you could load an 1886 a lot hotter than a Trapdoor, but Ken laid it out neatly.

Class #3 is super high power, only usable in Ruger Single Shots and very rugged bolt action rifles. These duplicate the 458 winchester magnum.

You are not going to get .458 Win Mag ballistics in a .45-70 even at .458 pressures. The case length and volume is too much less. In Hodgdon data, a .45-70 "Modern" at 50,000 CUP is driving a 400 grain bullet at 2100 fps. They show a .458 driving a 500 grain bullet to that velocity at that pressure. This is right at 20% more power - figured as energy or momentum either one, due to change in bullet weight only - from the 2.5" .458 case versus the 2.1" .45-70 case. Cubic inches count.

 

[mavracer]

The 30-30 160 gr. Leverevolution (SD 0.248), which once the polymer tip is destroyed on impact is an hollow point bullet, outpenetrated in the gelatin medium the 45-70 300 gr. (SD 0.204) load which, by the way, it is not an hollow point.

17,5" of penetration on gelatin for the 30-30 (impact energy 1745 ft/lb, expanded bullet diameter 0.63", 110% expansion) Vs. 16" (+ 6" of polyester backstop) for the 45-70 (impact energy 2409 ft/lb, expanded bullet diameter 0.76", 70% expansion)

wow, so 17.5" is more than 28"(16" jello + 12" the amount of jello it would have gone through) you musta went to a different math class.
BTW IIRC the arresting box depth is roughly 1/2 what it would be in jello
it says so somewhere on his sight.

 

[ArmedBear]

outpenetrated in the gelatin medium the 45-70 300 gr. (SD 0.204) load which, by the way, it is not an hollow point.

...which is one reason the 300 grain .45-70 makes no real sense unless you're trying to use it on smaller game.

405-530 is about the right range. Under 400? Why use a .45-70 to replace a .44 Magnum?

 

[akodo]

You are not going to get .458 Win Mag ballistics in a .45-70 even at .458 pressures

all right, I probably overstated the case. In a modern bolt action or Ruger #1 you can throw a 400 grain bullet at 2000 fps giving you 3500 ft-lbs of energy, while the 458 winmag 400 loadings can be as slow as 2200 giving 4200 ftlbs or as high as 2400 giving 5,000 ftlbs.

So yes, even the hottest 45-70 lag behind the softer 458 winmag loads.

But those hottest 45-70s are still one hella thumpers.


Regarding pressure breakdowns, here is what I have seen

Standard aka Sharps = not exceeding 28,000 psi (sometimes as low as 21,000)
'Marlin' = not exceeding 35,000 psi
'Ruger #1' = 40,000 psi neighborhood.

For any trapdoor, don't exceed 18,000 or at least proceed with extreme caution. I also think this is where the 21,000 number might be coming from sometimes too.

So I guess if you throw 'trapdoor' loads in there, you really have 4 different classes of loadings

 

[saturno_v]

Ok lots of ground to cover...let's see

We had a member for a while here who trumpeted the virtues of the 12 gauge shotgun against virtually all big game, including Cape Buffalo.

With buckshot.

Even when speaking with folks who had been there, done that, he wouldn't change his mind.

How do you feel about buckshot?

John

John

Buckshot??

On the package of my cheap Remington non copper plated 00 Buck i keep for HD duty there is this hunting table:

So a 000 buck for the people at Remington would be "ok" for Back Bear...myself I would not even dream of using 0 buckshot on a black bear unless it is an extremely small animal or I rely on it as "showering shocking shot" (hoping to hit eyes or nose) as prelude for a follow up with solid slug to do the real job....so this is how I feel about buckshot....


Eric..

The proponent of momentum conveniently forget that yes 2 bodies of different weight at the same speed, the heavier one will travel farther all other factors being equal

You have to consider drag and friction in the equation. Bullets do not operate in a vacuum.

Energy sum up all the potential capability of the body to do work..penetrate and destroy tissue

Interesting you mention archery..read from this article:

http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/index.cfm

Couple of sections from that page:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"KE is King!

Kinetic Energy, which is commonly abbreviated as ‘KE,’ is the determining factor when it comes to penetration. The other factors play a part, certainly, but no where near to the extent that KE does. If you have enough KE, you can almost (but not quite) forget about the other factors.

KE is the ‘energy’ in the arrow as a result of its velocity and overall weight. You can calculate your shafts KE manually or with this BOWSITE calculator: "

“What about momentum?” you ask. Momentum, like KE, is another way to measure the ‘power’ in an object that’s moving. Some have suggested that momentum is an important factor when you’re comparing the potential penetration of a heavy and slow arrow vs. a light and fast arrow. For example, a 375 grain arrow traveling at 280 fps has about the same KE as a 600 grain arrow moving at 220 fps. The latter, though, has more momentum and theoretically should provide superior penetration.

The reality, though, is something else all together. The formula for momentum is very similar to the one for KE, and the difference between the two measurements doesn’t seem to translate to the real world. Lighter weight arrows with comparatively low momentum can penetrate quite well. There are likely other variables which influence penetration far more than the minor difference between KE and momentum."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An hunting arrow has an extremely sharp undeformable hardened steel broad (read wound channel) head which cut very cleanly through tissue.... get two rods, one made of copper jacketed lead with a blunt tip and an other made of hardened steel with a very sharp tip....bang them with an hammer against a plank of wood and tell me which one penetrates more...projectile construction here..nothing to do with momentum or energy....shoot a big animal with a 38 Special (roughly about the same kinetic energy of a very powerful compound bow or crossbow) at the same distance with a theoretical hardened steel, sharp, drill bit shaped bullet of the same grainage and size of your regular 158 gr. round nose and look at the penetration you will get...

ArmedBear

I said it already, nobody here dispute that an old black power 45-70 round cannot take down a Buffalo...it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here....

About momentum again...read what I said before...all other factors being equal......test after test during the years clearly demonstrated that higher SD with the same energy, regardless of overall bullet weight all other factors being equal (bullet construction and shape) penetrates more..it's physics...proven, done....still I'm with you 100%, a 45-70 BP round will take buffalos all day long, no doubt about it...

Then we can talk about wound channel..but it's a separate issue

which is one reason the 300 grain .45-70 makes no real sense unless you're trying to use it on smaller game.

Under the "magic momentum" theory should have penetrated more.

wow, so 17.5" is more than 28"(16" jello + 12" the amount of jello it would have gone through) you musta went to a different math class.
BTW IIRC the arresting box depth is roughly 1/2 what it would be in jello
it says so somewhere on his sight.

Mavracer

Did you read the test?? Do it again I repost for you:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/federal4570.html

After the gelatin block the 45-70 penetrated just 6" into a polyester barrier..not that impressive...read the test well before posting...and the 45-70 bullet had higher energy and less deformation

 

[Gewehr98]

Saturno, you're too busy digging in the books...

And not paying attention to hunters and shooters of those old BP rifle cartridges.

Take a look at the trophy room on the Shiloh Sharps page.

Also, see what penetration really means, here:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_3.htm

IOW, numbers are one thing. Real-world performance can be something entirely different.

 

[saturno_v]

Saturno, you're too busy digging in the books...


And not paying attention to hunters and shooters of those old BP rifle cartridges.

Take a look at the trophy room on the Shiloh Sharps page.

Also, see what penetration really means, here:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_3.htm

IOW, numbers are one thing. Real-world performance can be something entirely different.

Not digging books...busting things

These tests are real world.....as real world are these that hunt with high velocity calibers..

Once you you are fond of the Box of Truth, look at the penetration capabilities of the diminuitive underpowered 30 carbine that everydoby think is a pop gun....

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

 

[Eric F]

Well there you go folks saturno_v has solved all the mysteries. The big bore heavy bullets are really no good for anything as they have been superseded by lighter faster smaller ones.


Some folks either get it or they dont. saturno_v obvously does not get it. Box of truth......there is a source enough said.

There was once a guy on here in the hunting section that proclaimed that his 30-06 could do everything a 45-70 could do. Time after time he jockeyed numbers and such and ended his post with tell me what a 45-70 can do that a 30-06 cant do. Well several folks argued and argued but I fixed him up with "launch a 500 gr bullet"

 

[saturno_v]

Well there you go folks saturno_v has solved all the mysteries. The big bore heavy bullets are really no good for anything as they have been superseded by lighter faster smaller ones.


Some folks either get it or they dont. saturno_v obvously does not get it. Box of truth......there is a source enough said.

There was once a guy on here in the hunting section that proclaimed that his 30-06 could do everything a 45-70 could do. Time after time he jockeyed numbers and such and ended his post with tell me what a 45-70 can do that a 30-06 cant do. Well several folks argued and argued but I fixed him up with "launch a 500 gr bullet"
__________________

Eric

What there is, exactly..."to get"?? Did you read my post?? Methinks not... Can you point exactly where did I say that big hevy bullets do not count for anything?? I'm curious because I do not recall saying anything like that...

Box of Truth indeed....go and read some tests...

What's the point of a 30-06 to "launch a 500 gr bullet???" boh....

 

[Gewehr98]

I'll take that bet.

Did the .30 M1 Carbine load do the same thing as the .45-70 Sharps load in the Box o' Truth?

Be honest.

Actually, he didn't even bother with the .30 M1 Carbine and the bricks...

 

[mavracer]

After the gelatin block the 45-70 penetrated just 6" into a polyester barrier..not that impressive...read the test well before posting...and the 45-70 bullet had higher energy and less deformation

yes I read it and I also understand what the numbers represent.
A: it's not a polyester barrier It's a polyester bullet arresting box which is harder to penatrate than jello.
B:% expansion means more of your beloved KE was used for said expansion which limits penatration.
C:% expansion is great but the 45 is still making a 20% bigger hole .76>.63
D:30/30 penatrated 17.5" the 45/70 penatrated 22" the last 6" being even more difficult than the jello.
which represents 26% more penatration and as others have tried to tell you this is not even a good penatrating 45/70 load, the Remington 405gr SP (which is loaded for original design guns) has less energy than even the 30/30 load in question(1590 ft.lb.) and yet has much better penatration.

Never hunted but I fired the 375 H&H, the 460 Weatherby Magnum and the 458 Win Mag.....I often fire 3" Brenneke Black Magic Magnum slugs and Dixie Slugs out of my 12 Ga. shotgun....I hope it qualifies....it is fun...for few rounds...

you really didn't need to answer.those of us that have shot live animals with the old 45/70 already knew that.

 

[redneck2]

Also, see what penetration really means, here:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_3.htm

I pointed this out a number of posts back. Evidently, reality has little effect on this discussion.

The bull**** factor that is missed by the Wondermagnum lovers is the amount of energy that is used to deform the bullet into the wonderful killing mechanism that it is touted to be.

After 2/3rd of the theoretical energy is used up to turn Mr Sleek into a deadly mushroom, the killing power (penetration) is mostly used up, at least in relation to Mr Slow & Heavy.

One needs to remember the time frame of the O'Conner vs Keith debate. In the 50's & 60's, you didn't have the controlled expansion bullets of today. I read an article about a guy that used some Winchester Silvertips for grizzly. These were the premium bullet of the day.

Hit the bear dead square at fairly close range. No visible effect so he shot again. Nothing. Someone else shot the bear. They found the first two bullets barely penetrated the hide and blew apart.

As I've noted in the past, some people here spend too much time typing and too little shooting. Once you're ready to visit the real world, you may find out what real usable performance is.

 

[saturno_v]

Did the .30 M1 Carbine load do the same thing as the .45-70 Sharps load in the Box o' Truth?

Be honest.

Actually, he didn't even bother with the .30 M1 Carbine and the bricks...

Of course not....I did not try to depict the 30 Carbine as the ultimate penetrator...I just did post that test because many think of the little 30 carbine as a little more than an air gun...it is not...

yes I read it and I also understand what the numbers represent.
A: it's not a polyester barrier It's a polyester bullet arresting box which is harder to penatrate than jello.
B:% expansion means more of your beloved KE was used for said expansion which limits penatration.
C:% expansion is great but the 45 is still making a 20% bigger hole .76>.63
D:30/30 penatrated 17.5" the 45/70 penatrated 22" the last 6" being even more difficult than the jello.
which represents 26% more penatration and as others have tried to tell you this is not even a good penatrating 45/70 load, the Remington 405gr SP (which is loaded for original design guns) has less energy than even the 30/30 load in question(1590 ft.lb.) and yet has much better penatration.

Mavracer

I'm glad you did.....

A: Polyester harder to penetrate???, I serious doubt it....jello is designed to create a lot of channel drag...

B: Exactly what I said in my previous post, if you read it....the little 30-30 had to spend more of its lower impact energy to expand more..still it penetrated that far.....by the way you conveniently forgot int that tests the significant impact energy difference..~1700 for the 30-30 Vs. ~ 2300 for the 45-70...still despite that and despite the 30-30 being a Hollow Point (spent more of its energy to expand) it did an amazing job at penetrating the medium because of its higher SD :banghead::banghead:

C: My point is penetration , penetration and penetration....I said several times over and over that a bigger bullet will make a larger wound channel/hole...it's not a mystery why keeping restating the same thing over and over???...it is obvious.
Accordingly with the momentum theory, a 300 gr. should penetrate more than a lighter bullet anyway....now you bring into the equation a 405 gr..bait and switch...a 405 gr. 45-70 impacting at ~1500 ft/lb will never outpenetrate a higher SD 30-30 bullet with the same energy and bullet construction....again simple physics....feel free to test for yourself...but I bet you will come back arguing with the larger hole wound channel and so on which is a completely different thing...who knows maybe this time you will get my point..I'm hopeful...

I pointed this out a number of posts back. Evidently, reality has little effect on this discussion.

The bull**** factor that is missed by the Wondermagnum lovers is the amount of energy that is used to deform the bullet into the wonderful killing mechanism that it is touted to be.

After 2/3rd of the theoretical energy is used up to turn Mr Sleek into a deadly mushroom, the killing power (penetration) is mostly used up, at least in relation to Mr Slow & Heavy.

One needs to remember the time frame of the O'Conner vs Keith debate. In the 50's & 60's, you didn't have the controlled expansion bullets of today. I read an article about a guy that used some Winchester Silvertips for grizzly. These were the premium bullet of the day.

Hit the bear dead square at fairly close range. No visible effect so he shot again. Nothing. Someone else shot the bear. They found the first two bullets barely penetrated the hide and blew apart.

As I've noted in the past, some people here spend too much time typing and too little shooting. Once you're ready to visit the real world, you may find out what real usable performance is.

Again...mixing oranges and apples here....yes an expanding small caliber bullet will use lots of energy to deform and create a larger wound channel....big discovery....this is how these bullets are designed in the first place...better aerodynamic and high energy to get farther and then trying to create the largest wound channel possible....again and again...my point was.....p e n e t r a t i o n (assuming the same bullet construction)..........no wound channel...

You guys sometimes hear only what you want to hear....

As I've noted in the past, some people here spend too much time typing and too little shooting. Once you're ready to visit the real world, you may find out what real usable performance is.

Just came back from the range this afternoon where I did shoot a couple of boxes of 7,62 x 54R and a box of 30-06....nice sunny afternoon

 

[JShirley]

I'm finding it hard lately to avoid calling my male students "son".

So, the first thing that popped into my mind to reply to you was "On FLESH, son!"

Shoot some stuff that moves and bleeds. We can discuss jello and vicious attacking boxes and gallon jugs some other time. Hell, is there a real reason anyone's arguing? Can somebody in WA take this guy hunting?

 

[mavracer]

A: Polyester harder to penetrate???, I serious doubt it

of course you do you'd rather call me a liar than admit your wrong.I may have been off as to how much but here is a quote from brassfetcher(BTW he's je223 a member on this site)

10" of polyester bullet arresting box (roughly equivalent to 12" of ballistic gelatin),

it's a bullet arresting box its designed to stop the bullet:banghead::banghead::banghead:

still despite that and despite the 30-30 being a Hollow Point (spent more of its energy to expand)

the controled expansion bullets actually use less energy to expand than older soft point bullets.it's simple physics the easier they expand the LESS energy is expended expanding them

still it penetrated that far

still over 20% less penatration.

Accordingly with the momentum theory, a 300 gr. should penetrate more than a lighter bullet anyway

and it did despite the fact it has a lower sd and was making a larger hole.

a 405 gr. 45-70 impacting at ~1500 ft/lb will never outpenetrate a higher SD 30-30 bullet with the same energy and bullet construction....again simple physics

the 405 remington load will out penatrate the 300gr load tested.the biggest problem your theory has is you are trying to choose the worst performing 45/70 load with reguards to penatration and trying to draw a conclusion.

who knows maybe this time you will get my point

I understand the point your trying to make it's just wrong.

 

[mavracer]

Hell, is there a real reason anyone's arguing?

yes sombody's gonna get themselves killed thinking a 30/30 will penatrate big animals(the ones that will eat you) better than a 45/70.
that and it's fun to try to educate the youngns.

 

[saturno_v]

Mavracer

I did not call you a liar...maybe a bit disinformed as I'm sure I am in many aspect of the shooting world.....I just find odd the "geometric" relationship you established between ballistic gelatin and the polyester box which the author of the test did not show to us nor describe it...let's say we are both speculating about it.

the controled expansion bullets actually use less energy to expand than older soft point bullets.it's simple physics the easier they expand the LESS energy is expended expanding them

Expansion....now you changed your story..you said in your previous post:

"B:% expansion means more of your beloved KE was used for said expansion which limits penatration."

Now you tell me that a hollow point bullet actually spend LESS energy to expand?? Absolutely not..the bullet is designed to facilitate expansion...the bullet still dumps more energy mushrooming and opening compared to a less expanding one so dramatically increasing drag, friction and flow disruption and rapidly reducing the bullet's SD which quickly impair penetration capability....potential core-jacket separation and fragmentation may occur, drastically reducing weight and limiting penetration even further.....the design (softer material, jacket thickness/contouring and/or specific design features) facilitate the process....so let's say the more expanding bullet meets a bone or a tough muscle...the softer material will further increase its rate of expansion...as I said before, fragmentation and/or core-jacket separation will likely happen with fragments initiating tangential/radial secondary wound channels with some of the remaining energy dissipating into heat...instead a less expanding, more stout bullet (for example a more traditional soft point or a partition) will probably plow through....it is still energy just spent in a different way..... let's not apply physics in reverse...come on be serious, you must know that a hollow point bullet is designed to penetrate less and expand more than a traditional soft point.

still over 20% less penatration.

I give you the benefit of the doubt so maybe the test should be done in identical medium without backstop differences (in the tests was polyester for the 45-70, another gelatin block for the 30-30), still you, again, conveniently forget that the 30-30 used in the test was a hollow point and the 45-70 impacted with almost 40% more energy.....little detail you left out...

the 405 remington load will out penatrate the 300gr load tested.the biggest problem your theory has is you are trying to choose the worst performing 45/70 load with reguards to penatration and trying to draw a conclusion.

I did not choose the worse performing bullet... I did choose what I found...and I do not have a theory...ask anyone with background in ballistic and he/she will tell you that same energy and higher SD, other factors being equal (bullet shape and construction, etc...) higher SD, regardless of weight, will penetrate better...read any ballistic publication that will confirm this...it's not my theory.

yes sombody's gonna get themselves killed thinking a 30/30 will penatrate big animals(the ones that will eat you) better than a 45/70.
that and it's fun to try to educate the youngns.

I never said something like that and I don't know where you read it.... I never advocated the use of a 30-30 where the 45-70 should be used......I was simply talking about penetration...I recognize the paramount importance of wound channel diameter as killing power element....

 

[saturno_v]

Food for thought:

This diminutive (by big bore standards) 6.5 x 55 Swede 160 gr. expanding bullet, a relatively sedate cartridge (~2200 ft/lb at the muzzle) traveled 3/4 or so through a Moose in Sweden before stopping...this because of its fenomenal SD: 0.328.

Obviously it didn't create a very large and devastating wound channel but it penetrated very deeply.

 

[paintballdude902]

just to go ahead and toss this out there the .45-70 may have been developed as a hunting round but it really didnt see that much use int he decimation of the buffalo herds it was introduced too late for that really it was used but not as much as alot of the other big bore blackpowder cartridges

 

[Jim Watson]

the .45-70 may have been developed as a hunting round

It most certainly was not. It was originally a military development for the 1873 "Trapdoor" Springfield. Sharps, Marlin, and Winchester picked it up for hunting and competition as with all earlier and later military calibers.

But you are right on the rest. I read that the last really big buffalo hunt was in 1878, after that it was on the decline as the herds were killed off. Lots of buffalo were killed with other and earlier calibers. The .44 caliber rifles were very popular in those days but almost completely disappeared after the .45-70 and other .45s caught on. The .44s were deader than even the .40s and .50s and are nowadays much less reproduced.

 

[mavracer]

I did not call you a liar...maybe a bit disinformed as I'm sure I am in many aspect of the shooting world.....I just find odd the "geometric" relationship you established between ballistic gelatin and the polyester box which the author of the test did not show to us nor describe it...let's say we are both speculating about it.

If you didn't now you are now the quote

10" of polyester bullet arresting box (roughly equivalent to 12" of ballistic gelatin),

is from brassfetcher's website in the 7.62X25 data to be exact.no speculation on my part.

Now you tell me that a hollow point bullet actually spend LESS energy to expand??

no I was trying to explain that the newer jacket designs for "controled expansion use less energy to expand.and yes hollow points require less energy to make them expand.as do skived jackets.

still you, again, conveniently forget that the 30-30 used in the test was a hollow point and the 45-70 impacted with almost 40% more energy.....little detail you left out...

40% more energy 45% larger hole I'd say thats more than a wash. A little detail your choosing to ignore.

I was simply talking about penetration...I recognize the paramount importance of wound channel diameter as killing power element....

again your wrong penatration is paramount,size of the wound channel is secondary.thats why for the really big nasty critters they use solids.

as others have said you really need to hunt so you can speak from experiance.

 

[saturno_v]

Mavracer

is from brassfetcher's website in the 7.62X25 data to be exact.no speculation on my part.

Ok, accepting the tester empirical formla let's say that there is a relationship of 1 to 1.2 (20%) in penetration between the polyester box and the gelatin.

So the final result "would" have been 30-30 17.5, 45-70 23.2 nches (16 + 7.2 calculated)...still impressive results for the 30-30 considering the energy and bullet expansion disadvantage...yes the 405 gr would have penetrated more because of its better SD not because his weight as standalone parameter.

no I was trying to explain that the newer jacket designs for "controled expansion use less energy to expand.and yes hollow points require less energy to make them expand.as do skived jackets.

I think you confuse "facilitate" with "use of less"....as I said before, once violent expansion begin you get a drastic reduction in SD , spike in drag/friction/flow disruption potential fragmentation/core-jacket separation with secondary wound channel...all of this eats energy like crazy.

40% more energy 45% larger hole I'd say thats more than a wash. A little detail your choosing to ignore.

You mix oranges with coconuts here....there is not mathematical relationship between certain % of more energy with a given % of hole size.... and the most expanding and smaller bullet to reach 110% expansion he lost all of his his initial SD advantage and then some....you cannot draw such simple relationship...trust me is much more complex than that.

again your wrong penatration is paramount,size of the wound channel is secondary.thats why for the really big nasty critters they use solids.

as others have said you really need to hunt so you can speak from experiance.

With nasty critters you use solids for a large caliber firearms so you get the wound channel advantage (more tissue disruption/bleeding and more margin of error for not well placed shots) ...both are fundamental part of killing power....shoot a nasty critter with a 6.5 x 55 Swede 160 gr. solid, the bullet will completely penetrate but will create a much smaller wound channel...do the same thing with a .458 cal solid and you get a wound channel with a frontal area over 300% larger....BIG difference

 

[mavracer]

ok less energy,lower SD, heavier bullet and more penatration.explain that.

Cartridge : .44 Magnum 240 grain Speer Gold Dot JHP (load # 23973)

Firearm : .44 Magnum revolver with 4.0" barrel length.

Calibration : 9.3 ± 0.05cm and 612 ± 0.500 ft/sec impact velocity.

Single shot penetrated 16.0 ± 0.031" of gelatin block and ~8" of bullet arresting box. 1354 ± 0.500 ft/sec bullet impact velocity. Average recovered diameter was 0.730 ± 0.0005".

BTW SD= .186 and energy is less than 1000 ft.lbs.

 

[saturno_v]

That is a very good example you brought up and that load with a paltry ~980 ft/lb and even less SD than the 300 gr. 45-70 outpenetrated the latter with more than double of energy....where is the mistery??

Possible explanation, just look at the wound channel profile in the gelatin for the two shots:

44 Magnum:

45-70:

One good indication is the width and the shape of the wound channel which the tester outlined for us...the 45-70 expanded a bit more and it did, probably with a much more blunt and irregular shape that disrupted tissue more, increasing drag and friction dramatically and limiting its penetration capability.

I have another case even better for you..look at this:

250 gr. Hard Cast lead 45 ACP impacting at a paltry 827 ft/sec for a total of "only" 379 ft/lb...the bugger outpenetrated everybody and exited the polyester arresting box and was never recovered!!!

Where is the mistery??? No expansion...look at the wound channel....it just plowed through..the bullet shape was not disrupted increasing drag and friction exponentially....

It gets better...another test with a Walther 22 pistol and the "ridiculously" low power 22 long Rifle 40 gr. CCI Velocitor

Results??

No expansion at all and the little thing exited the entire block!!! (with no polyester backstop)

http://www.brassfetcher.com/WaltherP22test.html

Once the shape and SD change abruptly and dynamically during penetration all bets are off...drag and friction are HUGE factors that eats up energy.

This is why the rule is higher SD, regardless of weight, with the same energy penetrates more ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL (bullet construction and shape), once penetration begin and deformation/expansion is triggered things change completely.

 

[jerkface11]

So do you start these topics simply to have a place for your rantings?