America Buffalo Cartridges...onyl the 45-70 has been modernized?? Why???

[dmazur]

I'm kind of new to reading up on cartridge history, but reading through this thread I could swear I saw a glimmer of Jack O'Connor arguing with Elmer Keith...

Here's a link to Chuck Hawks opinion on this -

http://www.chuckhawks.com/column12_jack_o_connor.htm

According to this, the fight between these two gentlemen was largely one-sided. I know it is still an often debated topic, that will probably never be resolved in favor of one side or the other.

 

[saturno_v]

Let's not forget that Keith sometimes locked horns with Col. Jeff Cooper, another gun writer and experienced African Hunters with a more "scientific" and rigorous approach and he too advocated bullet placement first and flat and fast energetic cartridges too....he famously said that for a Lion you do not need anything more than the good old 30-06.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, Elmer Keith did not consider the .30-06 adequate for hardly anything, probably due to inadequate bullets available in his formative years. Even later, he tended toward the 7mm family if he was going smaller than .33, as with the .285 OKH.

And Jeff Cooper considered most cartridge developments to be commecially driven with little advance in performance until you got pretty big. For example, he had Baby, the .460 G&A for buffalo, and referred to the .350 Fireplug (.350 Remington Magnum) as the "Lion Scout." He liked the .376 Steyr, too; because it got near H&H power in a handy rifle. Has to kick, though. But the .30-06 will do anything in the field that a lot of later rounds will, and he saw no need for anything different in a standard hunting rifle. You don't see many .460 G&As because they take a great big action, but similar performance is available from the .458 Lott which will - and does - fit a lot more rifles.

If I were going to make a shot at a deer at an unknown range near 300 yards, I would rather have cliffy's .243. But that doesn't mean the old guns aren't deadly or accurate. You just have to know their characteristics.

The modern repros aren't weak, either. From the Shiloh board:

Hi guys, Lee is correct, the 45-70 Ruger loads will work in the Shiloh. This does not mean watch until primers flatten like some of the professional hand loaders I have spoken with. Remember, most data is written using a 22" barrel, you will have more pressure and velocity in a 34" barrel, just use common since. I have found the best accuracy to be at the lower end using IMR4064 with a 405 flat nose. Thanks Kirk

And just who is this Kirk guy to pronounce on the capability of a Shiloh? Uh, he owns the company.

 

[doubs43]

One of the more interesting gun books I own is Jack O'Connor's "The Last Book", a limited edition publication that was only released after Jack's death.

In speaking of Elmer Keith, Jack points out that Elmer initially published an article in which he claimed that the .270 Winchester "killed like lightning". Later, Elmer changed his tune and said the .270 wouldn't stop an enraged bull mouse..... or something to that effect.

Elmer Keith resented O'Connor because he always felt that the "Outdoor Life" gun editor position should have been his. Later, when O'Connor helped Elmer become an editor with a gun magazine, Elmer refused to show appreciation in any way. He apparently held a grudge until the end.

As for high velocity small caliber vs slow heavy bullets, I think both have their place. I wouldn't use a 45-70 for groundhogs any more than I'd use a .243 for bear. The first is overkill and the second could get me killed!

 

[ArmedBear]

I wouldn't use a 45-70 for groundhogs

You don't know how much fun it is, then.

The key is to use black powder. The trajectory is a challenge.

 

[doubs43]

You don't know how much fun it is, then.

The key is to use black powder. The trajectory is a challenge.

Now that I think about it, I suppose it would be fun although I'll stick with smokeless powder; much easier to clean the rifle afterward.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I kinda like the 45-70 it's like hitting something with a shopping cart at 1200fps.

Sig line material; lol!!!!

 

[saturno_v]

As for high velocity small caliber vs slow heavy bullets, I think both have their place. I wouldn't use a 45-70 for groundhogs any more than I'd use a .243 for bear. The first is overkill and the second could get me killed!

This is the reason why the high intensity .30 cal are such a good compromise....not too small in caliber, with the heavy bullets they have impressive SD, higher than the baddest African cartridges.

a 240 gr. Woodleigh bullet for the 30-06 has the incredible SD of .361!!! and with an 06 you can go as high as 250 gr. (Kynoch made a solid 250 gr. .30 cal)

Now almost 3000 ft/lb with that kind of sectional density give you really really serious penetration capabilities.

You do not get as big as a wound channel as the big boys but if you really do your part you can take pretty much on anything.

I have an old Italian gun book from 1965 which introduced in Italy the Weatherby line of rifles.

When they described the 300 Wby with its level of flatness and energy which, at that time, was described as nothing short of science fiction, at some point the article says something that today is considered anathema...I translate the highlighted section of the 300 Mark V article for you:

"This data demonstrate the incredible versatility of this rifle, the extremely flat trajectory make it an ideal gun for mountain hunting where very long shots are usual while the velocity, the power and the consequent terryfing impact shock make it adequate for any type of large game hunting, included (only in the hands of a good shooter) the Elephant, Rhino and African buffalo.
The weight, 3.3 Kg is minimal and it has uncommon handling characteristics in this class of caliber and the range of bullet weights 110, 150, 180, 200 and over, allow a broad choice of use depending on your intended target.

Then the article switch to the description of the higher calibers, the 378 and the 460.

 

[Gewehr98]

I dunno...

Now that I think about it, I suppose it would be fun although I'll stick with smokeless powder; much easier to clean the rifle afterward.

Cleaning a BP rifle is nowhere near the chore people make it out to be.

Then there's the pure giggle factor.

Look a the grin on this southpaw kid's face, shooting my Sharps at paper, of all things:

(He's dropping the hammer on a snap cap, first. I wanted him to get a feel for the double set triggers. Glasses were worn when he launched lead and smoke downrange)

 

[Eric F]

Cleaning a BP rifle is nowhere near the chore people make it out to be.

If a black powder cartridge is loaded properly the gun can be cleaned in about 5 minutes. After my last shot I dry patch the barrel spit patch the barrel then lube patch the barrel. Go home use a dry patch again hot soapy swab 2 or 3 wet patches 2 or so dry patches and lube the gun down wipe off and put away.

My other guns say my remington mod 8 to clean properly I need a screw driver and then dissasemble the action to get to the bolt on and on takes about an hour. Now that is an extreem compaired to a bolt gun which would likely take the same 5-10 minutes to clean.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The Marlins aren't able to handle the "nuclear" loads??? I thought they were....

They can, just not quite as hot as the Ruger #1 and LR Mauser can. Top loads for the 1895 run 405 grainers out just over 2,000 FPS for ~3,650 ft/lbs. Maxxed out in a super tough action, the cartridge will put that 405 grainer out at around 2,200 FPS for a bone-crunching 4,350 ft/lbs.

Mind you, also, the Marlin 1895 tips the scales at a whopping 7 pounds; Recoil is quite brisk with the 405 gr./2,000 FPS loads. Somewhere on the order of 50 ft/lbs @ 18 MPH, IIRC. Most people can only handle a half dozen or so before the fun factor fades into discomfort.

 

[saturno_v]

They can, just not quite as hot as the Ruger #1 and LR Mauser can. Top loads for the 1895 run 405 grainers out just over 2,000 FPS for ~3,650 ft/lbs. Maxxed out in a super tough action, the cartridge will put that 405 grainer out at around 2,200 FPS for a bone-crunching 4,350 ft/lbs.

There are 45-70 loads at well over 4000 ft/lb????!!!!

They must be way overpressure even by +P "standards"...totally out of spec...

 

[Gewehr98]

Depends on who's specifications you're looking at.

I load the Level III .45-70 rounds for my Ruger #1S based on published reloading data from reputable sources. As I've stated previously in this thread, there are separate load data pages (Levels I, II, and III) from the reloading component publishers, geared towards different action strengths chambered for the venerable .45-70. The SAAMI "+P" or "+P+" designations haven't really been applied to much more than handgun rounds, and the .257 Roberts rifle cartridges, to date. The latter is somewhat of an oddity, in that respect.

My 405gr Beartooth handloads, which I've chronographed at 2150fps, came straight from the Lyman load manual. The muzzle energy calculator says they'll deliver 4157 ft/lbs of energy, and I have no reason to doubt that. I'm also glad that I have no fillings in my teeth, because they wouldn't stay there long after shooting a big batch of those rounds.

The 500gr Hornady RN loads pictured below with my Ruger #1 are also straight from the Hornady reloading manual. They're just shy of 4000ft/lbs, but definitely more than I'd run through either a Trapdoor or Marlin.

Regardless, these loads came from published and tested load data. Additionally, both Buffalo Bore and Garrett sell .45-70 ammo, that they call either Magnum or "+P" (see how worthless that designator is?), and the latter has gained fame as the first to take the African Big 6 with a Marlin levergun. Regarding the strength of that action, and how far factory ammo manufacturers will push it, leads to an interesting article on Garrett's website. Note their reference to Taylor Knockout Value:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/420.asp



Loaded, ready for anything on the North American Continent:

 

[saturno_v]

Gewehr98

Yes the the only official SAAMI recognized +P demomination is for the 9 mm, 38 Special and 45 ACP handgun cartridges, as far as I know, and basically is a 10% increase over the regular standard pressure.

Usually many ammo manufacturers when they use the terminology +P for some cartridges, even if they are not formally recognized by SAAMI, they somewhat means +-10% pressure increase...and +P+ is, usually +-20-30%...it's some sort of "de facto" standard.

The Hodgdon manual calls these 3 levels of 45-70 loads: "Trapdoor Rifles", "Lever Actions" and "Modern Rifles"

In practice a level III 45-70 it's a total different cartridge compared to the original trapdoor...they just have identical case size, caliber and bullet weight..other than they have very little in common...

Garrett's article basically says that even if some lever rifles can take the highest pressure (the level III), they feel that it's prudent to lower the maximum pressure for their cartridges to avoid some potentially nasty side effects (magazine separation, magazine detonation, etc..). Infact their offering doesn't get even close to 4000 ft/lb

Yes they mention the Taylor Knoickout Value...still it's a theory..maybe with some valid points but a theory nevertheless.

 

[Jim Watson]

The SAAMI spec for .45-70 is 28,000 psi. That will get you a 400 grain bullet to 1900 fps by Accurate Arms data, and is about where Buffalo Bore lives. This is what most sources give for "level II", Winchester 86, etc loads. It is what your Eyetalian replica is proof tested for.

AA recommends a maximum of 18,000 psi for Trapdoors, which is actually a bit less than a case full of FFFg black powder will give. Level I.

Level III, now there's the big one. Garrett +P is stated to be 35,000 CUP. There are supposedly tested loads at a known 40,000 psi, which is not likely much different.

Y'all be careful, now, you hear?

Me? Black is plenty for me. Have to use it in BPCR shooting matches anyhow, and I am not after bear or buffalo.

 

[saturno_v]

So the SAAMI official specs for the 45-70 is already outside of the safety range for the old trapdoor rifles.

There is any repeater (bolt or otherwise) capable of taking the heaviest loads in absolute safety???

The Winchester 1895 lever was capable of taking very high pressure rounds like the 30-06 or the 7,62 X 54R...they ever made a version chambered in 45-70???

 

[JShirley]

saturno,

I'm not trying to rude, I just want to clarify: have you hunted any big game? Have you fired any big boomers?

Personally, I think the biggest reason the .45-70 is the only one of the Buffalo Cartridges to retain much popularity is that it's as much fun as almost any sane person could want.

Though I did once ponder having a strong modern action made in something like .45-110, though, with the idea that I could cheat recoil and still have a hugely effective slug thrower...

John

 

[saturno_v]

saturno,

I'm not trying to rude, I just want to clarify: have you hunted any big game? Have you fired any big boomers?

Personally, I think the biggest reason the .45-70 is the only one of the Buffalo Cartridges to retain much popularity is that it's as much fun as almost any sane person could want.

Though I did once ponder having a strong modern action made in something like .45-110, though, with the idea that I could cheat recoil and still have a hugely effective slug thrower...

John

Never hunted but I fired the 375 H&H, the 460 Weatherby Magnum and the 458 Win Mag.....I often fire 3" Brenneke Black Magic Magnum slugs and Dixie Slugs out of my 12 Ga. shotgun....I hope it qualifies....it is fun...for few rounds...

However what this has to do with me asking if they make repeaters capable of safely firing level III 45-70 loads??

They make repeaters for big African boomers....

 

[akodo]

Didn't seem to hurt the .44 Russian and its descendents. The .38 Special has way more case capacity than the 9mm, despite their coming out at the same time, and the 9mm having more juice.

Handgun powder is NOT the same as rifle powder

#2 the 38 special and the 44 special are as popular as they remain because of their relationship to the 357 magnum, and as far as small revolvers are concerned, the power level of the 38 special is about all you want in a snubnose, so not a huge demand for something that is the same just shorter.

not one of them (accordingly with the ballistic data in Chuck Hawks article) can even get close to 3000 ft/lb and many of them have energy levels comparable to the "anemic" 30-30 Winchester.

You are under the misconception that energy is a good way to judge performance/power. It is one way. The other is to compare momentum, and in that the 45-70 beats the 30-30 in spades. Truth is, we don't have a perfect way of figuring out how to measure lethality, but most people agree given two different loadings with equal energy, but one having greater momentum, the one with greater momentum tends to be more lethal.

The Marlins aren't able to handle the "nuclear" loads??? I thought they were....

There are 3 classes of 45-70 smokeless powder loads (not to be used in genine 1880s guns)
Class #1 is standard, safe to use in anything. Your basic Remington and Winchester loads are going to be these. Use in anything but museum pieces.
Class #2 is high power, safe only in a strong firearm design, like the Marlin. Very similar to the 450 marlin. Not to be used with a new replica of 1880s guns
Class #3 is super high power, only usable in Ruger Single Shots and very rugged bolt action rifles. These duplicate the 458 winchester magnum.

A brand new Marlin can not handle the 458 winmang pressures, nor can it handle 'class 3' 45-70 loads

However what this has to do with me asking if they make repeaters capable of safely firing level III 45-70 loads??

They make repeaters for big African boomers....

It is definately true that any bolt action strong enough to handle the 460 weatherby is giong to be able to handle the class 3 loadings of the 45-70. I suspect, however, the 45-70 cartridge dimensions may not make it the best for consistent solid extraction, especially with how tight the brass will be once fired with all that pressure. Still, I am sure you could get a ton of custom gunsmiths to work you one up.

The reason people turn to the 45-70 is mostly nostalgia, and the bolt gun just isn't going to give that.

 

[saturno_v]

You are under the misconception that energy is a good way to judge performance/power. It is one way. The other is to compare momentum, and in that the 45-70 beats the 30-30 in spades. Truth is, we don't have a perfect way of figuring out how to measure lethality, but most people agree given two different loadings with equal energy, but one having greater momentum, the one with greater momentum tends to be more lethal.

Energy is one of the best way to judge performance together with bullet construction and SD

Two bullets with the same energy and same bullet construction and shape but one with higher SD, this last one will penetrate better. proven over and over...test after tast have been done in several media (ballistic gelatin, wet paper, wood, etc...)

Larger caliber will create a larger wound channel and bullet shape will influence the tissue disruption too...

The "momentum" theory is rather weak....a 220 grain 30 cal solid bullet striking at 2000 ft/lb will outpenetrate a 405 grain 45 cal solid bullet with the same shape (but lower SD) striking with the same energy...wound channel has nothing to do with momentum.

Have a look at these 2 tests:


http://www.brassfetcher.com/federal4570.html


http://www.brassfetcher.com/160grHornady3030.html


The 30-30 160 gr. Leverevolution (SD 0.248), which once the polymer tip is destroyed on impact is an hollow point bullet, outpenetrated in the gelatin medium the 45-70 300 gr. (SD 0.204) load which, by the way, it is not an hollow point.

17,5" of penetration on gelatin for the 30-30 (impact energy 1745 ft/lb, expanded bullet diameter 0.63", 110% expansion) Vs. 16" (+ 6" of polyester backstop) for the 45-70 (impact energy 2409 ft/lb, expanded bullet diameter 0.76", 70% expansion)

So despite the lower impact energy and more expansion the tiny 30-30 bullet matched the mighty heavy 45-70...because of its higher SD

Yes the 45-70 created a larger wound channel...but it has nothing to do with momentum....it's because of the larger caliber.

 

[Eric F]

Energy is one of the best way to judge performance together with bullet construction and SD

Two bullets with the same energy and same bullet construction and shape but one with higher SD, this last one will penetrate better. proven over and over...test after tast have been done in several media (ballistic gelatin, wet paper, wood, etc...)

I must cubmit this arguement to you. How many lead 405 gr flat nose lead bullets do you see in any of these? 375 H&H, the 460 Weatherby Magnum and the 458 Win Mag.

I dont mean to be rude but the whole bullet arguement and energy thing really dosnt compare. I think I read that a particular person said 350 ft/lbs of energy is required to kill a person. My arguement is arrows dont pack any where near that much but they will kill you just as fast as a bullet some times more so. But only because of wound channel. Ant the arguement of momentum has nothing to do with it is wrong. If the same demention bullet hit the gelitin at the same speed but weighed say half the amount It would not penetrate as much as it would loose speed way faster and if the same demention bullet weighed more it would penetrate more. Its just physics.

 

[JShirley]

saturno,

I was trying to understand two things: if you had some trigger/shoulder time with something with some thump to give you a basis for comparison, and also if you had seen the effects of certain rounds on big game.

We had a member for a while here who trumpeted the virtues of the 12 gauge shotgun against virtually all big game, including Cape Buffalo.

With buckshot.

Even when speaking with folks who had been there, done that, he wouldn't change his mind.

How do you feel about buckshot?

John

 

[ArmedBear]

Energy is one of the best way to judge performance together with bullet construction and SD

...if and only if you're selling the new wundercartridge.

.45-70, 68 grains of black powder, hand-cast round nose lead alloy bullet from a Lyman mold, weighed in at about 525 grains. Some wheelweight and pure lead mix that a friend already had in his pot.

North American Bison, 80 yards with a Sharps replica with crude iron sights (i.e. shot placement was something to strive for, but was not as precise as a scoped .300 Wby or something).

Low velocity, low energy, crude bullet construction. According to your average gun rag bullsh~t, it probably shouldn't be used on a small deer.

One shot. Buffalo stumbled a couple times and fell over stone dead.



saturno, no offense, but if you actually want to learn about big bullets, stop shooting rifles at paper and reading books about energy and neat-o bullets. Sure a modern bullet will make a .270 kill a deer better at 250 yards than an older one that fragments or fails to expand. .277" is a tiny little bullet if it doesn't expand a lot -- without expansion, it'd be a varmint round. But that's got little to do with .45-70, its intended use, and its performance.

Numbers may not lie, but that doesn't mean that numbers can't be bullsh~t.

Momentum is the number that the wundercartridge makers don't want to talk about. But it's the number that brings down a buffalo.

WRT Keith vs. O'Connor, I'd believe that O'Connor really thought he was 100% right if he used a .270 Weatherby as a Cape Buffalo gun. I really don't think he did. But by the numbers, it has enough energy. If energy were really the end-all, it shouldn't be a problem...

Important to remember: both those guys got paid by the word, and they had a mutual interest in keeping readership levels up.

 

[ArmedBear]

Cleaning a BP rifle is nowhere near the chore people make it out to be.

Not a Sharps, anyway. They're simple, and there's not much to clean.

However, if you use it for hunting, and you get your game at the end of the day, you're already tired, and you have a couple of hours of hard work to do before you can think about dinner, to say nothing of rest, and then you have to clean your rifle so it doesn't rust...

 

[Art Eatman]

It's generally accepted that lever actions with rear locking lugs, and bolt-actions with a single locking lug, should not be loaded above some 40,000 psi. Multiple-lug turn-bolts can be loaded on up into the 50,000-55,000 range.