America's Great Gun Game--a new book on gun control

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Hi again,
I'm waiting for the solutions. I agree with enforcing all gun laws and training for these who are purchasing guns.
I'm waiting we want to reduce gun death by 5 percent?
Do you think that your thinking on the subject is better than law enforcement? physicians? constitutional scholars? historians?

Many of us have already posted solutions. Maybe if you care to read the thread more?

Come on boys and girls let's have some solutions.
Also, we are NOT your college class. Do not speak to us like we are. Its rather insulting. Many of us are professionals, lawyers, doctors, professors, soldiers, historians, law enforcement, etc. We have a fairly large group of people here from all walks of life. A little more respect would be appreciated.
 
Earl,

Your list (law enforcement, physicians, constitutional scholars, historians) of resources don't provide any more knowledge of gun violence than many of the posters here on THR. You keep trying to put certain groups or individuals up on a pedestal as experts on this topic. When, in fact, many here fit into the groups you espouse as experts and you conveniently ignore what they have to say here because they disagree with you.

Other countries have instituted bans on guns. Yet, the violent crime rate is higher now than before the ban (e.g. UK). The criminals have just switched tools for their trade (knives, clubs, etc.). And the gun violence continues as the criminals are the ones left with guns.

You keep ignoring my question... Do you believe a person has the right to defend himself????
 
M1 Shooter said:
If you simply must have a city with a capacity of more than, oh, say 10,000 people, then you must register it and get a license for it, and it will be strictly controlled.
After all, nobody NEEDS to live in a HIGH CAPACITY city, do they?

Love it. Seems the high capacity cities are the ones with the high crime rate. You may have something there!
 
You say... "McDowell supports licensing and registration of all firearms,...


Did the good professor explain how "licensing and registration of all firearms" is supposed to work some magic in preventing or even solving crime? Not bloody likely to do a thing except make the next step easier for those who propose "reasonable gun control laws", that is to say they tried it the easy way but it hasn't done what was expected so the next "reasonable" step would be confiscation.

Liberals/polliticians love passing new laws and restricting the public's freedom so much, maybe they could solve their crime problem with a "reasonable" one that effectively says "Under penalty of law, thou shalt not break a law." It would allow them to satisfy their buring urge to "do something" to make the public safer and would be at least as effective as anything else they've proposed.
 
Dr. McDowell said:
Do you think that your thinking on the subject is better than law enforcement? physicians? constitutional scholars? historians?

Dr. McDowell,

Who do you think our membership is comprised of? You are speaking to law enforcement officers, physicians, scholars and historians. Each of these fields are represented by the membership of this forum. This is not a kid's space. Nor are we just old sharecroppers that haven't come 'round to the new way of thinkin'.

You have somehow degraded us to "common-folk" simply because we do not share your opinion. You are wrong.

Heaven forbid...we may even be able to come up with a PHD or two with whom you can respectfully debate...:D
 
If you must read it, it's at the public library or through inter-library loan. Save your bucks for bullets.

BTW, I just finished Clayton Cramer's newest book, Armed America. Cramer examines old laws, newspapers, court cases and in so doing, contradict (the now discredited) Michael Bellesiles (who, having resigned his tenured teaching position at Emory University, is a high school teacher in England).

I'd like to welcome Dr. Earl McDowell to this forum. Let us discuss with him the issue at hand in the intelligent, reasonable manner for which The High Road is known.
 
Do you think that your thinking on the subject is better than law enforcement? physicians? constitutional scholars? historians?

Dear Earl,

We ARE "law enforcement, physicians, constitutional scholars, and historians". You just aren't paying any attention to anything we say because we disagree with those whose opinion you support.

Did you say you are a rhetorician? You have committed the "appeal to authority" fallacy several times on this thread, yet chosen to ignore and mock the fact-based arguments given in rebuttal of your posts.

You say you want debate? Then debate, for heaven's sake. We're game. But knock off the rope-a-dope. It's getting boring.
 
Mr McDowell,

Due to the focus of your book and of this forum, I believe we are fixating entirely too much on "firearms."

It should not surprise us that firearms are used in the commission of violent crimes. They represent the pinnacle of personal weaponry in 2007. Police have firearms because they are efficacious. Criminals desire them for the same reasons. This is a simple truth.

However, while drastic measures controlling firearms would most likely reduce the frequency of firearms used in the commission of violent crimes [assuming these measures could be effective given the 'after the fact' nature of law enforcement and the large number of firearms in circulation], I tend to doubt that the overall violent crime rate would drop as well.

As has been previously pointed out, cities with draconian gun control laws tend to have significantly higher crime rates. This is merely a correlation, but one I believe is significant.

(1) It shows that gun control does not in itself lead to a reduction in violent crime. Crime by definition is the violation of law. Will addition laws prevent crime? If they do it will be through psychological deterrence. (Incidentally death penalty debates and psych studies present some fascinating info on this area that I cannot due justice to in this post.) Criminals do not want to be caught or countered. Hence while they might not have any scruples in committing acts of violence, it is reasonable to assume that they try to reduce any ancillary 'risk factors.' The legal penalties for the possession and/or unlawful use of specific weapons and other tools may shape the means, but have not addressed the cause, nor prevented the end. For example, carrying a crowbar will get you charged with burglary tools. Wearing body armor in many areas will get you charged with a possession/use in commission of a felony. Therefore, a criminal must decide whether the value of body armor or a crowbar is worth the additional legal penalty. Conceivably, if gun control laws carry most severe penalties than laws against the use/possession of other weapons, we might see a reduction in the use of firearms in crimes. (As an aside, weapon control laws in CA actually encourage the illegal firearms. Carrying saps, blackjacks, and fixed blade knives [arguably the next weapons down from handguns in terms of efficiency and convenience] is a felony, while illegally carrying a handgun owned legally by one over 21 is a misdemeanor. From a cost/benefit analysis, it seems the handgun is a clear choice.) However, while other weapons remain readily available, it is doubtful whether a significant reduction in overall violent crime will be seen. Violent crimes are committed with kitchen knives, pocketknives, baseball bats, axes, tire irons, and countless other weapons. Prisons are a perfect example of this. It is my belief that severe gun control restrictions will only alter the weapons of choice, not the intent to commit violent crimes. Bear in mind though, that these draconian restrictions apply equally or more so to the law abiding. Handguns are most efficient personal weapon for everyday carrying ever devised. This applies to whoever uses them, criminals, police, or normal people. For women, the disabled, and the physically challenged, firearms represent the most effective means of self defense. Tasers and pepper spray are the only real alternatives for a majority of these people, and are significantly more limited and less effective than firearms. If severe gun control shifts the focus toward less efficient weapons, will it really have done the disadvantaged a favor? Criminals are overwhelmingly young to middle age males, where aggressiveness and physical abilities have peaked. They are significantly better equipped to use to less-efficient weapons: knives, blunt instruments, hand-to-hand. Firearms are used because they represent the top of the food chain. If you were to somehow lop off the top, violence continues, just with different instruments. Prisons are a classic example. In a severely regulated environment where all weapons are prohibited, violent inmates create and use improvised weapons.

(2) Prisons, Washington D.C., and other areas where there is strict gun control and higher violent crime rates strongly suggest something: that sociological factors other than firearms/weapon availability are responsible for most of the violence in those areas. Prisons are the definitive example of weapon prohibitions serving as an inconvenience, not a deterrence, to those with criminal inclinations. Too often, I think, gun rights advocates point to the 'gun control = more crime; more guns = less crime' phenomenon. While the availability of firearms certainly plays into the hypothetical criminal's cost/benefit analysis of a mugging (the more chance a victim is armed, the more risky it is), I believe the dominant factors are sociological. For x reasons, there are high crime rates. My personal hypothesis takes this one step further. The members of the general public in favor of gun control usually see it as a reactionary measure. An unacceptable number of crimes have been committed. Many committed with firearms (due, as I pointed out above, to their supremacy as personal weapons). Then someone tells them that they can reduce violent crime by stricter gun control. They see it thus: less guns = less crime. Unfortunately, correlations within the United States do not support this theory, most damningly so when other sociological factors are accounted for. Due to the common mis-perception, however, I believe high-crime areas tend to develop stricter gun control laws. In conclusion I suggest the following: (a) While high levels of firearm carrying does indeed deter interpersonal crime, (b) the reaction to already unacceptable levels of violence is often to pass gun control laws which are ineffective, (c) hence the correlations between firearms ownership levels, gun control, and crime rates. Comparing the United States to Britain is fallacious and disingenuous from a sociological point of view. One compares apples to apples, not oranges. Unfortunately, we sees very few comparisons within the U.S. advanced by proponents of gun control because the statistics and correlations do not support their assertions.


You mentioned a few other points that I wish to address as well. As has been pointed out, longarms (any firearm other than a handgun) are responsible for a tiny fraction of firearm related crimes, and so-called assault weapons are responsible for only a fraction of that. This is because of the convenience of handguns in everyday carry. Consequently, when I try in good faith to understand why gun control advocates insist on fixating on semi (as in not automatic, despite the common mis-perception) automatic rifles and long-range target rifles as targets for regulation, I am stumped. Yes, .50 caliber rifles are more powerful in the sense that there is more kinetic energy. No, one cannot easily make 1600 meter shot on a moving target. The limitations and liabilities, as virtually always, lie in the user. No, assault weapons are not easier in any meaningful way to use effectively. In fact, the less powerful a firearm is, the easier it is to shoot. Less recoil, more controllable. Yet .22LR rifles always seem to be the last thing to be banned.

All the arguments I have been presenting so far assume severe, draconian gun control laws. Registration and licensing, as you propose, is simply not effective at reducing crime. At best, a registered gun is traceable to its original owner, ex post facto. Registration has not prevented any crime from being committed. Straw purchases are already illegal. Handguns are already registered in many states, and licensed in several. Please elucidate how you feel registration and licensing will reduce violent crimes. Gun owners are generally hostile to such schemes because they have been historically abused and used to implement more gun control despite all assurances to the contrary.

I don't think there is an easy solution to the problem of violent crime. While your concern is laudable, I feel you are fixating on the instruments of violence, not the causes or solutions.

I have noticed you asking many questions, receiving many fine and several poorly-considered ones, and generally not addressing any of them. It is the nature of intelligent discourse to answer as well as to ask...
 
I LIKE IT! said:

i am very much enjoying the exchange (as one sided as it is) in this thread. a ton of information and ideas are being expressed very rationally. i would throw a word of caution to posts such as I LIKE IT!'s. Dr. McDowell has already shown his willingness to take posts and emails out of their context and use them to discredit gun owners. from his utter lack of intellectual participation in this thread, i can only assume that that is his goal here. so as frustrating as it may be, remember dear old ma's words of advice: "if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all."

as expressed by others earlier in this thread, we have absolutely no chance of changing the Dr's mind in this matter. he is set in his ideas and beliefs, no matter how obviously wrong or fallacious they may be. what we can hopefully accomplish here is to convert any fence sitters who may be reading this thread. the only effective way of doing that is to continue forwarding clear, factual, and concise information that discredits the Dr.'s ideas and opinions, not the Dr. himself.

i am relatively new to this forum, but not to the gun rights debate. i would like to say that all of you here have greatly impressed me with your factual and professional conduct, and you have made me very proud to be a member of this forum and this movement.
 
I'm sure law-makers, police officers and the the general public are interested in your solutions?

Uh, I am a police officer. I also have a Master of Science in MIS, I've worked in state and local government, in the judicial system and was in nuclear security in the Air Force for ten years. I teach CCW classes along with my chief and I know several other law enforcement officers who teach CCW classes. We are all in favor of law abiding citizens having the means to defend themselves. I also had the daughter of our Congressman in a CCW class, he and his wife will be attending this fall. That about covers law-makers, police officers and the general public wouldn't you say?

The solution I've heard most often espoused and one I espouse myself: lock up the violent criminals so they have less opportunity to murder others, regardless of their choice of tool. Allow the law abiding citizens to carry the most effective means of personal defense from the violent criminals who aren't locked up. Why is it that you refuse to acknowledge the answers that I and others have given you and continue to use baiting language ("Come on boys and girls let's have some solutions.")?

BTW, using that kind of language is a clear indication that you are losing the debate, you know.
 
Greetings, Prof McDowell

I am a South African radiographer living in London. My specialty is trauma and gunshot wounds.

I think that your heart is in the right place and that there is no nefarious reason for you to want gun registration, but there are several problems with the options you advocate implementing. These problems can be best discussed by my US colleagues on this board. I just want to make two comments here. The first relates to this quote from the American Paediatrician who claimed that:

She went on: "Get rid cigarettes, get rid of secondhand smoke, and you get rid of lung cancer. It is the same with guns. Get rid of guns, get rid of bullets, and you get rid of deaths."

This is a flawed argument, because it assumes that any use of a firearm is comparable to any smoking of a cigarette. These cannot be compared because it is a medical fact that any smoking of a cigarette can have no beneficial effect on the smoker, whilst it is obvious that not all uses of firearms have deleterious effects on the shooter or indeed society. To be blunt, sir, no good comes of smoking whilst there is ample evidence that much good comes from the firing of a gun within the framework of the law.

The second point I must make is that I am already subject to, and have experience of, a government-led firearms registration scheme. I have two pistol licenses (I am a registered handgun owner in SA) and also one firearm certificate (a rifle on a UK firearms certificate, here in London) for sporting purposes.

I think the South African model is what fits your requirements exactly. Each firearm is applied for and granted on its own license. Here are mine:

SAlicense.gif

Note that each license has a fingerprint, the serial number of the firearm, the date that it was issued and even a national ID number (you'll forgive me for obscuring some of those details). Each license has to be applied for and granted on its own merit. When I applied for the 9mm I already had the baby Browning and I was initially refused the 9mm because I was told I already had a self defence pistol. Never mind the fact that carjackings skyrocketed after the change in government in 1994. I eventually had to get the 9mm license by listing a minimum barrel length of 3" as a requirement for target shooting at a certain range. It resulted in me having a six month delay in the granting of the license, all because I now needed a firearm that I could confidently operate in and around my vehicle.

The firearms laws in South Africa have become more strict with the passing of time, yet the level of firearm-related crime has risen in the same period. All of our trauma statistics at the Johannesburg General Hospital support this: after the change in regime we were getting an average of 5 gunshot victims every day at our trauma unit. Before that, gunshots were not nearly as plentiful. It hasn't deterred crime. The criminals don't apply for the licenses and even if they did, they would not wait six months as I did, if at first they were refused. The South African government now plans to make us re-register our firearms. This doesn't make any sense unless you consider the possibility that such re-registrations may be refused. In my view it is a way to disarm the white South Africans just before implementing Zimbabwe-style land grabs. Otherwise why do it? Mine are already licensed. I had to provide proof of ownership of a firearms safe and also proof of membership of a shooting club before I got those cards you see there. Is there anything more that the South African government can do to ensure that I am not a liability to society by having those guns?
I submit that there is not, and I further submit that I would not have complied with that process if I had any kind of criminal intent with those firearms.

Now let's look at my UK situation. I have here a firearms certificate that was also difficult to get, requiring two referees of fine standing in the community to fill in forms in support of that application, and also a personal interview with the firearms officer at my place of residence and ALSO a telephone interview with the chairman of my rifle club (wherein the number of attendances I had made at the club was discussed). Only after jumping through all these hoops did I get a certificate with 5 predetermined slots on it, for firearms that can be used for hunting/sporting purposes ONLY.
Yet...every week there is another teenager shot dead in the UK, by a handgun. There was no possible straw purchase: handguns have been off-limits to the general populace for more than ten years now, yet the shootings continue.

Like SA, the UK has a criminal element that can procure and use guns for their dirty deeds. The converse is NOT true: that the procurement of guns gives rise to the criminal element. If that was the case I would be a good candidate for taking out scores of individuals both here and in South Africa.

I support responsible gun ownership. There is grounds for debate on the proper tuition in handling of firearms and also the proper security/access to those firearms in the home. But that issue is separate and not dependant on the role of firearms in the commission of crimes, and a registration process that purports to be aimed at reducing these crimes.

It hasn't worked in the UK.
It isn't working in South Africa.

Why should it work in the US?
 
Originally Posted by Ieyasu
Don't try that in court!

For a brief period, the Supreme Court held in 1968 (Haynes v. U.S) that felons were exempt from federal and state laws regarding registration because it violated their Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination. In other words, only people who were not criminals could be prosecuted for failing to register a firearm or found to be in possession of an unregistered firearm. However, in 1971, (U.S. v. Freed) the Court held that due to changes in the National Firearms Act of 1968 the law no longer violated the 5th Amendment rights of felons.

Thanks for that, Ieyasu. Another brick in the foundation of my RKBA education.
You're welcome Stickjockey. Glad you noticed. Hopefully El Tejon will notice your post because he obviously didn't read mine!
 
Earl McDowell said:
Hi again,
I'm waiting for the solutions. I agree with enforcing all gun laws and training for these who are purchasing guns.
I'm waiting we want to reduce gun death by 5 percent?

It seems many solutions have been offered but you refuse to listen because they are saying what you do not want to hear.

Earl McDowell said:
Do you think that your thinking on the subject is better than law enforcement? physicians? constitutional scholars? historians?

My understanding is that law enforcement tends to favor arming the populace. Some of them would rather pick up the body of a dead home intruder than chase them down and have to lock them up, or not catch them and see them commit another crime.

I remember hearing of a police officer being interviewed after the bombing of a bus. The officer was asked what should be done to prevent this in the future. His reply? Nothing. Trying to stop every bomb would require an effective and complete search of every passenger. Given how rare these bombings occur having such a search would be an expensive, restrictive, unconstitutional, and ultimately futile exercise.

This is the same with firearms. Trying to take away millions of firearms because of thousands of firearm related deaths is... I wish I could think of a proper word for such foolishness. Foolishness is not a strong enough word.

I'm not sure how physicians fall into this equation. They are experts in medicine, nutrition, biology and so on. Firearm violence is a social phenomenon and outside of the expertise of most physicians.

I do remember my last checkup at the VA clinic. He mentioned the highest risks I had to my health were trauma (buckle up, kids), and testicular cancer. Death due to firearms is so low on the list that few physicians and medical groups make note of them.

Historians and constitutional scholars should realize that our right to arm ourselves is protected by law and that firearm registration tends to lead to confiscation and oppression.

My thinking is not better than those you describe, but it is in agreement.

Earl McDowell said:
Come on boys and girls let's have some solutions.

I agree with what others have said above. This is quite condescending. Solutions have been offered but you refuse to consider them.
 
Baba Louie writes:
I did purchase the book in question. I'm wondering how it will fare when compared to Weir, Kleck, Poe, Nisbit, Schulman or Spitzer's works on gun control. Will it be reasoned debate presenting both sides of the issue with historical references or bumper sticker anecdotal 'because I say so' rhetoric?
I guess you haven't been following this thread and didn't see this link to the first two chapters of the book??? http://www.iuniverse.com/lookinside/LookInside.jsp?isbn=0595430325

It should resolve your wondering immediately (without having wasted your money)!

(And to repeat, I'm not saying that just because the author is anti-gun.)
 
Hi This is Earl McDowell again. I don't know what I did, but I was unable to complete my statement. I did read your responses. What the responses say to me is that because we have liberal gun laws criminal have guns and law-abiding citizens need to protect themselves. Is this correct In England. I spent two weeks in Italy in March. My book was not out, so I did not have the benefit of your comments. Everyone I talked to said they would not want to be in New York, Philadelphia or even Minneapolis because of guns. I remember walking in a number of large cities late at night with no fear of being shot or robbed.

Dr. McDowell these comments are quite frankly irrelevant. How you "feel" or how Europeans "feel" in certain places or situations is completely subjective.

I assure you sir that objectively, there is a chance of violent attack wherever you go. It's simply a fact of life we must contend with.

The question, and it is a sincere one, how can we as a soicety lower the number of gun deaths in our country?

What precisely is a gun death? Please define the term and I will answer the question. Is it when a physician declares a firearm to be deceased?

I indiacted that the object was to lower the death rate by five percent each year for five years.

What death rate? I'd think more people exercising 30 minutes a day three days a week, some breakthrough cancer research, or a new safety feature in automobiles would do more to affect "death rates" than anything.

What are your suggestions? I'm sure law-makers, police officers and the the general public are interested in your solutions? Please respond only to these questions

Well the cynic in me says that those in power are only interested in their own selfish pursuits, but let's be positive and assume you're right and they do care.

The hard reality of the matter is we have plenty of evidence which shows there's no correlation between gun control measures and any measurable effect on crime. Kopel's work alone supports this assertion as do other sources. So we know what doesn't work, and that's various gun control schemes.

We need to stop trying to put a bandaid on a broken arm. We treat the effect without even trying to address the cause.

Therefore I propose an immediate dismantling of all state bureaus which oversee and enforce firearms laws. This will mean the government will be smaller and that means a tax cut. A tax cut means there will be more private charity, which we know from various CATO publications is more cost efficient and more effective than government programs or initiatives. Private, local charities work better because they know how to serve their community best. A rural dweller has very different needs than an urban resident, for example.

These private efforts could take many forms. I for instance support Habitat for Humanity, which improves living conditions for low income people. I also support community organizations which give children a place to go where they can participate in supervised activities, where they are less likely to get involved with criminal activities.

As I said before, I believe the simple principle of taking care of the people around me as best I can would solve many problems. I could do this better if I didn't have to pay for some ineffective and costly gun control measures which only make certain people feel good.

Hi again,
I'm waiting for the solutions. I agree with enforcing all gun laws and training for these who are purchasing guns.

Existing laws are ineffective. Training is a personal decision individuals have the right to make and forcing it on them is a violation of their civil rights.

I'm waiting we want to reduce gun death by 5 percent?

Please define gun death. I do not understand how a gun can die.
Do you think that your thinking on the subject is better than law enforcement? physicians? constitutional scholars? historians?

That depends on the specific idea in question. I know people from all those walks of life who agree with me.

Come on boys and girls let's have some solutions.

That's a bit condescending but I'll take for granted it was meant to be jovial.

I've given you a simple scheme for solutions, and I've told you what I do to solve the problem and have been doing my entire adult life as well as during my childhood.
 
You may have been a pearl,
but without backup and explanation,
your idea will be be answered with a swirl,
rather than implementation.

Why would anyone give you a twirl
when its so easy to find refutation?
 
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Hi everyone it is Uncle Earl. I really appreciate your thorough comments. It would be nice if someone said something nice about my book. Perhaps, like, the pages are numbered correctly. If you saw my picture you would probably say how can a 65 year old man look 25. I must be stupid. I don't know how I could be a National Merit winner and be so stupid.

I don't have time to respond to the gentleman from SA, but I really appreciate his sincerity. I have several friends who live in London, and they love it there. They appreciate being able to go out at night and not worry about being shot.

Some of you actually responded to the question I asked, and I appreciate it. I want to go back to the start of that dialogue and read it more clearly.

I'm sorry I did not include all groups in asking for your responses. I appreciate all of the responses.

But we still have the problem, don't we? How are are we going to solve this problem? How can we lower the death rate by 5 percent in 2008?

The goal of my book is for the debate to end and for reprersentatives of different groups to sit down as brothers and sinsters and develop a comprehensive solution to this problem. Unfortunately, Homer Cummings is dead. He was a great American, a gun owner and strongly supporter of gun registration.
If the gun laws proposed by Homer Cummings had be implemented, it is unlikely that John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther king would have been assassionated. what do you think about that or don't you care?
 
;)
I don't have time to respond to the gentleman from SA

That's pretty much the same excuse you've given to everyone who's stepped up and answered the questions you've asked. When are you going to quit asking the same question over and over (i.e., ignoring our answers) and actually start debating?

BTW, "Uncle Earl", it's a pretty cheap tactic to refer to yourself as an elder relative in some cultures. It sounds like you're trying to place yourself in a superior position. I don't know how you could be a National Merit winner and be so rude.
 
When are you going to quit asking the same question over and over (i.e., ignoring our answers) and actually start debating?
He's not...

And as long as y'all play his game he never will.
 
Mr. McDowell,

Do you accept that there is a black market for guns?

Not a challenge or a trick question, and it's a yes-or-no query,
one that you surely have the time to answer.
I'm trying to understand whence your arguments (might) spring,
despite the basis to Werewolf's assessment of your posting behavior.


HCJorge
 
Earl, you've PMed me twice now...Once asking me a question, which I obliged with a response, and when I asked you a question, you PMed me back telling me about you dont have time because of your back yard BBQ and walking the dog...How about next time you decide to PM any of us, or find time in your very very very busy schedule to ask us more questions, DONT! And use that time to answer one of ours.
 
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