America's Great Gun Game--a new book on gun control

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:banghead::banghead::banghead:

I'm saddened by the gun violence against women and children. If you have had little or no contact with this group, please have the decency to say so and find out first hand what a fine job they do. I believe these people are the "salt of the earth."

I will close with an example I experienced on Thursday. I was visiiting an abuse center in Minneapolis. As I walked into the office I saw a women who appeared to have taken quite a beating. As I waited in the lobby for the director, I kept thinking how I might help this women. The director came and we went into a private room to discuss gun violence. She disclosed that this women has been to the center several times and feared that her hisband might kill her with a gun. This, of course, is a tragedy, and I wondered did he obtain his gun legally? What should be done with this man?

So folks I've come to the end of my journey. Please help end gun violence against women and children. Profits from my book will go to organizations that are working to stop gun violence against women and children.

Isn't it amazing that the good doctor, who is sooooooo concerned about women's safety and children's safety, should ignore arguments from women who are pro-gun? Granted, he didn't engage any of you guys directly either, but this "it's for the women and children" claptrap is pretty hard to take.

Dr. McDowell, I don't need you worrying about my safety or that of my children, because as an armed and trained woman who owns firearms of her own, I can take care of that myself, thanks. If you want that woman at the abuse shelter to be equipped to protect herself, help her pick out a handgun, help her get training, and help her get licensed to carry it. If you want to send profits for your book to organizations that are working to stop gun violence against women and children, I strongly suggest Women On Target, the women's training arm of the National Rifle Association. They do a far better job of truly equipping women to remain safe than anything else you can EVER propose.

Springmom
 
Interesting how the author claimed my facts/arguments were false (which they weren't) because they run contrary to his beliefs. He is not at all open to the truth only anecdotes that he claims support his opinion.

Also, he never answered my question. Does Earl believe people have the right to defend themselves against criminals??????

I believe the brief of his book on Amazon is very misleading as it appears to portray his views/research as the only way the issue can be viewed.




“You won’t get gun control by disarming law-abiding citizens. There’s only one way to get real gun control: Disarm the thugs and the criminals, lock them up, and if you don’t actually throw away the key, at least lose it for a long time... It’s a nasty truth, but those who seek to inflict harm are not fazed by gun controllers. I happen to know this from personal experience.” —Ronald Reagan, 1983
 
>Certainly you know that our Constitution is a
> flexible document. We have to interpret it in the
> present.

THIS is Dr. McDowell's most horrifying, maddening, statement! If the Constitution and Bill of Rights can simply be disreguarded, and interpreted according to the fashion of the day, we have no constitution, no rights, no rule of law, at all. NO WAY can he actually believe any of the other amendments in the Bill of Rights can be dismissed this casually!
Marty
 
the doctor's logic is so ....

""I hate meanness to warm, furry puppies, don't you?
Therefore, you should join me in restricting guns,
And if you don't support restricting guns, that means
you support meanness to warm, furry puppies.""

Salt of the earth. humm. Didn't conquerors salt the
earth of a conquered people, so their crops wouldn't
grow and they would starve? The good doctor loves
genocidal maniacs. (Just using his "logic".)
 
3. Determine the extent to which THR members would employ character attacks and immature slander.

Evidence of prejudice? Also, I frame the debate not in terms of "pro-gun" or "anti-gun", I frame it in terms of pro-freedom or anti-freedom. With freedom comes great responsibility. This does not mean that we should surrender our freedom because it's being misused by some, it means that we should hold those who misuse their freedom responsible for their own actions.

What are you wiling to do to lower the number of murders with firearms?

As for myself, I volunteer my time as a part time law enforcement officer. I'm on the streets interacting with criminals and their victims all the time. I also see those same criminals out on the street almost before we can complete the paperwork associated with their arrests. If the American judicial system weren't such a revolving door, the people who tend to murder others would be locked up most of the time, thereby reducing their opportunity to do so. Simple equation. Fewer criminals on the street = less crime.
 
Yeah, the Reason article is good.

Our US gun homicide problem is age, sex and race specific.

Code:
11999 - 2004, United States
Violence-Related Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
White, Males, ICD-10 Codes: X72-X74,X93-X95,Y35.0, *U01.4


               Number of                    Crude     Age-Adjusted
  Year            Deaths   Population***     Rate           Rate**

  1999            17,176     112,695,874    15.24            15.48
  2000            17,083     113,445,038    15.06            15.29
  2001            17,797     114,802,358    15.50            15.63
  2002            18,051     115,854,873    15.58            15.63
  2003            17,978     116,902,071    15.38            15.36
  2004            17,638     117,920,556    14.96            14.90

Code:
1999 - 2004, United States
Violence-Related Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
Black, Males, ICD-10 Codes: X72-X74,X93-X95,Y35.0, *U01.4


               Number of                    Crude     Age-Adjusted
  Year            Deaths   Population***     Rate           Rate**

  1999             5,993      17,195,092    34.85            33.04
  2000             6,120      17,407,029    35.16            33.35
  2001             6,310      17,720,029    35.61            33.70
  2002             6,617      17,956,274    36.85            34.91
  2003             6,734      18,187,728    37.02            34.64
  2004             6,561      18,421,010    35.62            33.53
Code:
2004, United States
Violence-Related Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
Black, Males, ICD-10 Codes: X72-X74,X93-X95,Y35.0, *U01.4


                Age
                (in     Number of                    Crude
  Year       Years)        Deaths      Population     Rate

  2004            0            1*         336,668    0.30*
                  1            2*         329,365    0.61*
                  2            2*         330,442    0.61*
                  3            4*         338,036    1.18*
                  4            3*         319,353    0.94*
                  5            1*         314,113    0.32*
                  6            1*         317,888    0.31*
                  7            2*         318,037    0.63*
                  8            2*         323,575    0.62*
                  9            4*         336,939    1.19*
                 10            3*         345,899    0.87*
                 11            3*         358,471    0.84*
                 12            3*         360,427    0.83*
                 13           14*         366,823    3.82*
                 14            36         372,615     9.66
                 15            75         352,030    21.31
                 16           111         338,399    32.80
 [B]                17           154         328,812    46.84
                 18           240         326,141    73.59
                 19           316         324,149    97.49
                 20           320         317,539   100.78
                 21           333         320,228   103.99
                 22           335         317,434   105.53
                 23           315         312,823   100.70
                 24           366         312,284   117.20
                 25           344         290,351   118.48
                 26           282         272,938   103.32
                 27           264         264,021    99.99
                 28           237         251,560    94.21
                 29           213         255,278    83.44
                 30           181         245,958    73.59
                 31           186         255,431    72.82
                 32           168         263,868    63.67
                 33           169         273,590    61.77
                 34           133         277,684    47.90
                 35           140         255,585    54.78
  [/B]               36            99         256,008    38.67
                 37           100         254,127    39.35
                 38           106         267,854    39.57
                 39            91         284,307    32.01
                 40            83         279,478    29.70
                 41            89         274,072    32.47
                 42            82         271,386    30.22
                 43            72         270,426    26.62
                 44            69         283,463    24.34
                 45            61         263,782    23.13
                 46            63         259,173    24.31
                 47            54         253,801    21.28
                 48            46         240,177    19.15
                 49            45         240,552    18.71
                 50            44         222,191    19.80
If you're Black, male, and manage to live past 50, your rate of violent death by firearm starts to approach the average rate for white males.

NON-firearm rates for both races are very similar at each age group.

And the US 2004 non-firearm deaths -
Code:
2004, United States
Violence-Related Non-Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Males, ICD-10 Codes: X60-X71, X75-X84,Y87.0, X85-X92, X96-Y09,Y87.1,Y35(.1-.9),Y89.0, *U01(.0-.3,.5-.9),*U02,*U03 

               Number of                    Crude
  Year            Deaths      Population     Rate

  2004            14,761     144,535,403    10.21
exceeds the TOTAL violent deaths in England and Wales - the Home Office reports 793 homicides in 2004/2005 -- 1.49/100,000 population.

Odd how our non-gun murder rate is about 7x their total murder rate. Maybe something other than guns might be involved.
 
For some, no explanation is required. For others, no explanation will suffice.

I guess that works both ways because for the life of me I cannot fathom why or how anyone can think or feel that registering firearm owners or limiting law abiding citizens access to arms will make and keep those citizens safe from evil intent. I'm sure that others on the opposing side feel the same about my position on the matter.

I'll simply take the abuse case cited as a sole point. If no firearms existed, that psychological cretin who obviously has anger issues would still have beaten the woman in question. If he comes back to do it again she may very well be killed. Yet, there is a tool, a device, a weapon that she can utilize to neutralize his potential further abuse even with the disparity of size and strength.

But... it appears to me that some in our society prefer to see her kept unarmed and thus, at harm to help buttress the stated position that no one needs an unregistered gun in regards this or any self defense matters.

It boggles the mind that a student of history refuses to learn from that study. Can you imagine being deceived and disarmed by your very government only to fall victim to them after the fact? Unfortunately, people have, to the tune of 120 million (plus) souls in the past century. In order to disarm them, their name must be on a list somewhere and they must willingly surrender their arms and trust the state. Meanwhile, crime and time march on.

A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie.--Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Did he REALLY say that? :rolleyes:
 
Did I miss something?

I have been lurking about this thread for the last couple days. Fascinating!
Debate IS about arguing logically AND emotionally. The good Doctor apparently has the emotional part of it down pat. But I was hoping for an actual debate...:banghead: Ishould have known better....:banghead::banghead:

As I waited in the lobby for the director, I kept thinking how I might help this women. The director came and we went into a private room to discuss gun violence. She disclosed that this women has been to the center several times and feared that her hisband might kill her with a gun.

Why hasn't someone counseled this woman about pressing charges and/or filing for a restraining order? :confused: Why do they keep sending her home and putting her health and, ultimately, her life in danger? :confused::confused:If there are kids in the home, I'd bet my bottom dollar he abuses them too! :mad: I don't know about MN, but it's illegal to beat your spouse in most other states, Az included. :mad::mad: If women are legal chattel in MN and it is ok to abuse them, then may be it's time the Minnesota State Constitution was, dare we say, "reinterpreted"?:scrutiny:

For what it's worth, I do not believe this "woman" actually exists. If she does, circumstances are probably much different than the good Doctor alledges.:scrutiny::scrutiny:

Azidiot

PS: Does this book actually chalk up as a +credit for his academic career?:what:
 
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U of M blurb on Earl:

Earl McDowell’s research interests include technical communication apprehension, technical communication programs, employment cycle interviewing & conflict, gender and psychological sex, international aspects of technical communication, and the comparison of U.S. and Japanese students on different communication variables. McDowell has recently taught the following graduate courses: “Information-Gathering Techniques in Scientific and Technical Communication” and “Research in Scientific and Technical Communication.”

Let's see, state a hypothesis and then only gather information that supports your hypothesis and ignore anything that doesn't support your hypothesis. Yeah, that is definitely a well respected approach! :scrutiny:
 
Presidents Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Nixon, Johnson, Carter, Bush and Clinton all agreed that regulations are necessary.

For your seven former presidents I can find dozens of my friends, coworkers, and family that disagree. You are posing an appeal to authority fallacy. Just because they were elected into office doesn't mean they are right.

The Second Amendment needs to be interpreted for the 21st century. Several of you have written about the Second Amendment and think that it is an individual right, yet Webster 1828 dictionary defines militia as "...able bodied men organized into companies, regiments, brigades... and required by law to attend military exercise ... " Certainly you know that our Constitution is a flexible document. We have to interpret it in the present. Justice Brennan indicated that we need not read the amendment through "the eyes of a small group of white property-owning males who lived in a world utterly different than our own..."

You say we need to interpret the Constitution in the present. I offer the present definition of militia from the Websters online dictionary.

1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2 : the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

I think the Selective Service agrees with the second definition. All able bodied men between the ages of 18 and 38 (perhaps older) are required to be registered with the Selective Service. Women may optionally register as well. It would seem that people registered with the Selective Service are members of the modern militia.

The following statement from the 1923 New York Times is as relevant today as it was then. It states: "A sale of weapons should be carefully regulated. The problem is one of how to keep them out of the hands of man killers. No one has yet found a solution for it." This caused legislatures to introduce regulations, but the NRA was successful in stopping the movement so the murders continued.

You blame the tool for the act. How do you know that the murders would not have still occurred had firearms been unavailable to the murderers?

The bolded portion shows the futility in firearm restrictions. As much as we try to make firearms illegal the criminals will still have them.

Additional statistics from the Center for Disease Control concerning children:
"American children are more at risk from firearms than children in any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, nineteen in Great Britain, fifty-seven in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada and 5,285 in the United States." Wake up folks, people with guns kill people.

You mean people kill people, don't you? The gun is inanimate, it is merely a tool.

You also give no context for these firearm deaths. Were these people caught in the cross fire of rival gangs? Then gangs killed them. Were they shot because they were playing with an unsecured firearm? Then they were unsupervised, uneducated, or perhaps even suicidal.

She disclosed that this women has been to the center several times and feared that her hisband might kill her with a gun. This, of course, is a tragedy, and I wondered did he obtain his gun legally? What should be done with this man?

Okay, this severely beaten woman shows up at a shelter and she is afraid of what? A gun? I think she should fear the person that beat her, presumably, without a gun. One does not need a gun to kill.

Oh, and what should be done with this man? The "eye for an eye" part of me thinks he deserves a similar beating. That is, of course, vindictive and should not be condoned in a civil society. This man should be charged with domestic abuse and locked up for a very long time. He should also be treated for what seems obvious to me as a mental illness.
 
For your seven former presidents I can find dozens of my friends, coworkers, and family that disagree. You are posing an appeal to authority fallacy. Just because they were elected into office doesn't mean they are right.

More importantly, the vast majority of actual scholarship on the issue recognizes that the 2nd Amendment guarantees an individual right. Such fundamental rights can only be "regulated" under a strict standard, which the vast majority of regulations do not meet.

Someone who spent decades researching this subject really should know that.
 
Blimey!

Every time I find a point in McD's material that needs illumination, by the time I get to the end of the thread I find at least two posts that do a right fine job of such illumination.

I am humbled by the muster of scholarly knowledge and erudition.

Bookmark this thread.

The next time someone asks you what distinguishes The High Road from other discussion forums, show them this assemblage of eloquence.

Cool rationality in the face of blatant provocation.

Makes a man proud to be on board.
 
The Second Amendment needs to be interpreted for the 21st century. Several of you have written about the Second Amendment and think that it is an individual right, yet Webster 1828 dictionary defines militia as "...able bodied men organized into companies, regiments, brigades... and required by law to attend military exercise ... " Certainly you know that our Constitution is a flexible document. We have to interpret it in the present. Justice Brennan indicated that we need not read the amendment through "the eyes of a small group of white property-owning males who lived in a world utterly different than our own..."
Oh please, I can't let you get away with that old one. Here's one of my own favorite quotes, from former Senator, Judge James L. Buckley: At the time of the adoption of the Bill of Rights, this country's statesmen were concerned with the need to protect citizens from government itself, and the passage of almost two centuries has not negated the validity of this concern. The fact that Article I, Section 8, clause 16 of the Constitution grants Congress the power to organize, arm and discipline the militia clearly indicates a quite different intention for the Second Amendment.
 
Dr. Earl McDowell was saying
>I also told you that I debated the issue. My
> partner and I won every debate, both affirmative
> and negative, on this topic.

No doubt he's telling people he won this one. :)
Marty
 
Hi Librarian,

Nice to see folks analyzing data and doing their own research. How dare you not take an "authority's" word! ;)

Our US gun homicide problem is age, sex and race specific.
Yep. Also, check out this page, http://guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvmurd.html which illustrates that most murders are not commited by law abiding gun owners (including the "crime of passion" homicides).

One minor quibble which doesn't alter your conclusions one bit... you wrote:
Odd how our non-gun murder rate is about 7x their total murder rate. Maybe something other than guns might be involved..
It's not really 7 times. You compared the U.S. MALE homicide rate to Eng/Wales total (male/female) homicide rate.

If you visit the GunCite link above, and scroll to the bottom, you can see a table of Selected U.S. Homicide Rates by Race for 2000 (per 100,000) that includes gun/non-gun comparisons.

Regardless, nice analysis. Same goes to several other posters who nailed the professor, and others who easily saw through the cheap rhetorical tricks he employed.
 
Dr. Earl McDowell was saying
>I also told you that I debated the issue. My
> partner and I won every debate, both affirmative
> and negative, on this topic.

No doubt he's telling people he won this one.
Marty

LMAO. I was thinking the very same thing. Heck he'll probably quote your post thusly: "... he [Dr. McDowell] won this one." ;)
 
As Ieyasu pointed out this gentleman is clearly anti-gun. This doctor claims to be pro-gun control but not anti-gun and yet every argument he makes is clearly arguing to take guns from innocent citizens. Perhaps it is because he realizes one simple fact, to remove firearms from the criminals one must remove firearms from all people.

The simple fact is that all people are potential criminals. Just because a person didn't break the law yesterday does not mean that person will not break the law tomorrow. One problem with that is a free society is based on the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Placing controls on the purchase and ownership of firearms means that this is not a free society.

There is the old adage "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose". A free society must have limits to protect the freedoms of others. That means I am not free to take your property, or take your life. Firearm registration is almost always a prelude to confiscation. Saying otherwise shows one is ignorant of history.

On my rifle there is a serial number. There is also one on my car, TV, oven, and any of a number of valuable items in my home. One argument of firearm registration is to deter theft and prove ownership. Why is it then that I was not required to register my oven with the government? What about my TV, or laptop? I don't know specifics but I imagine more laptops are stolen or lost every day than firearms.

I had my bicycle stolen when I was in college. Since I had the serial number recorded I was able to recover it when it was reported to the police. What makes my rifle so much different than my bicycle? Can't I simply keep the serial number written down in a safe place to prevent criminals from having my rifle, just like I did with my bicycle? The police don't need to know, and shouldn't care, what the serial number is until I report it stolen to them.

That is, of course, unless there is another motivation to keeping the serial numbers of my legally owned firearms on file than to deter theft.

Continuing with the theft idea lets take this from another angle. Criminals like to brandish firearms during a theft to assure compliance. That is if one is to steal an item physically. One can also steal with a falsified document, a more virtual theft. Does that mean typewriters, printers, and even pencils need to be registered?

Oh, but our right to speak is protected by the First Amendment...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

But then I look at the Second Amendment...
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I see "right of the people" in both. How did the definition of "right" and "people" change from one paragraph to the next?

Also, can someone explain to me how Selective Service does not meet the definition of "militia"? I ask about Selective Service because even if one is to make the claim that only the militia is granted the right to keep and bear arms then shouldn't proving Selective Service registration be sufficient to purchase and carry a firearm?

Getting back to keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals. I have a simple solution, "uninvent" the firearm. So long as firearms exist criminals will steal them, buy them under false pretenses, or construct them from plumbing pipe and scrap metal.

Let's go back to those peaceful times before firearms existed. You know, like feudal Japan. Where an Emperor's soldier could take the head off of a farmer that looked at them in a way he didn't like without fear of punishment.

Perhaps we should look to the glorious days of knights in shining armor. Where peasants would be killed on sight for hunting the king's venison. Where punishment for having a bow could mean losing fingers so that a bow could not be drawn against the king's men or fauna.

Let's not forget that Japan tried to uninvent the firearm. The emperor would buy off gunsmiths to convince them to not make any firearms and pursue other trades such as sword smithing or making clocks. Refusal would generally lead to imprisonment, torture, or death... sometimes all three. The ban on firearms ended quite quickly when they realized that not arming themselves with such effective weapons put them at the mercy of those that did have firearms.

I'm not sure who said this originally but I find it quite appropriate at this time...

"Those that beat their swords into plowshares plows for the one that did not."
 
Dr. Earl McDowell was saying
>I also told you that I debated the issue. My
> partner and I won every debate, both affirmative
> and negative, on this topic.

No doubt he's telling people he won this one

Forgot to add...

Ever know an experienced stock picker that never lost money on at least one stock, an expert poker player that has never lost a tournament, a good chess player that never lost a match, etc? (Rhetorical question) ;)
 
Danus X wrote....
Thank you to those who entertain, and don't automatically reject, the idea of reading this. McDowell's beliefs about firearms don't align with my own, but that doesn't mean I won't hear his arguments.

To my mind, the argument is over, the debate long cold, for more than 200 years now. Other learned authors wrote....

The Constitution of the United States of America

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State [or professorial opinion] to the contrary notwithstanding.......

......We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America......

......A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

End of story. Debate over.
 
It's not really 7 times. You compared the U.S. MALE homicide rate to Eng/Wales total (male/female) homicide rate.
You're right, I had left the WISQARS query form set to males.

For both sexes, 2004, the violent nonfirearm death rate is 7.27/100,000, a bit under 5 times the total rate for England/Wales. (Females alone had a rate of 4.48/100,000 compared to the 10.21 for males alone. Women are twice as smart - or lucky - as men?) Apologies for the inadvertent exaggeration.
 
Doctor McDowell, since words and communication are your specialty, consider this:

The Preamble to the Bill of Rights explicitly states that the purpose is to restrain the State from abuse of power. "Power to the people", as it were. So tell me: How can a restraint on government somehow at the same time be any sort of restraint upon the people?

Is it not correct that the rights under the BOR were enumerated therein and not granted by government? That these rights exist outside government, and that there are others not yet enumerated at the time of the writing?

Next: If one wonders at the meaning of a person's writing, is it not reasonable to read his other writings on the same subject? It is my understanding that Jefferson and Adams were the primary writers of the BOR. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) So, is it not reasonable to read what else they wrote about possession of firearms by the citizenry? And did they not laud the private ownership of firearms, supporting this as an individual right?

I just don't see how any serious examination of the writers and their word usage, coupled with the Preamble, can lead to viewing the Second Amendment as some sort of collective right, unique among all the other Amendments which are taken as individual rights. "Contradictory" comes to mind.

Art
 
Doctor McDowell

Why did you not answer my simple question, about the NFA registry.

Could it be because you are just another gun grabber.
 
Art, IIRC, Madison is considered the father/author of the BOR's, basing much of it from Geo. Mason's VA Declaration of Rights... and I'm not sure that our new member wants to do anyhting but have all gun owner's licensed, their firearms registered and for everyone to celebrate Aug 28th.

I did purchase the book in question. I'm wondering how it will fare when compared to Weir, Kleck, Poe, Nisbit, Schulman or Spitzer's works on gun control. Will it be reasoned debate presenting both sides of the issue with historical references or bumper sticker anecdotal 'because I say so' rhetoric?

Time will tell. In any case, it will join the others on my bookshelf. I'm simply 'quivering w/ anticipation' in reading yet another THR member's published words of wisdom/storytelling endeavor. (Look out Matt Bracken ;))

Now if we could just get Nightcrawler and Correia published, maybe LawDog too... but I digress. Back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Is there some fundamental flaw in OUR makeup (or mine at least) that just won't let my mind see things along the lines of Pete Shields, Diane Feinstein et al, and agree with their brand of logic? Can any one person or concept really make the world a "Safe" place? (the last question is rhetorical in nature guys...so don't bother to answer it unless you have THE answer, which I think is death or extinction)
 
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