America's Great Gun Game--a new book on gun control

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Why not just get rid of some of the stupid gun laws we arleady have and actually enforce the laws we have that already make sense? Everything you have mentioned that you want to prevent for the most part there are already laws against. Why not just when we catch people doing mass straw purchases etc prosecute instead of taking light plea bargains?
 
Dr. Mac, thanks for dropping by last night. I hope your schedule permits you to address some of the counter-arguments that have been offered here.
 
You don't have to go overseas of examples. In California they first required (so called) semi-automatic assault rifles to be registered. Later they banned such firearms, and used the registration rolls to insure that they were either sent out-of-state, or turned into the police.

Right now in Washington, DC a case may be brought before the Supreme Court, because the city first required that handguns be registered and licensed, and then once they were registered refused to issue the necessary license, therefore banning them.

Chicago did much the same.

When a legally owned and registered firearm is banned, it is in effect confiscated - usually with no or little compensation.
And thus, applying Dr. M's theory (and that of others), Americans living within those jurisdictions are... safe. No? ;)

It may be said (heck, it HAS been said) that "What the government regulates (registers) it controls." This may work to make the government safe, but rarely does it make for a safe world for those so governed, or so history would have me believe in the case of firearms.

Now, should the government come out and say, "We believe in a "well regulated" (trained) militia as being a necessity for the security of a free state, and as each citizen is a member or potential member of that well regulated militia, we require that each citizen have and maintain the requisite arms and associated training. In order to assure ourselves of having that very real need met and maintained, we must and shall keep a log of each member of that militia, their arms and their training, in order to assure our security as a free nation. In so doing we as a Representative Congress, recognize that this right of self defense of the individual and collective, is pre-ordained as a human right, existing long before our Constitutional Republic was founded, we shall in no way infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms... we just want to know who is on the rolls and that their arms are adequate for the job at hand."

That type of registration, while onerous, has a logic to it that I might find difficult to dispute as I could argue that having an armed citizenry might very well make this nation a "safer" place. But who or what is it we wish to be "safe" from? Tyranny perhaps? Or your average day to day, random criminal types? Registration of handguns in Clark County Nevada in no way make this a safe place to live. It might make it safer for the politicians, it might make it a little safer for the LEO's when they respond to a domestic call or a traffic stop, as forewarned is forearmed. But for your average Joe or Joesephine... naaah.
 
Dr. McDowell, welcome.

that it is reasonable to support the federal Gun-Free Zone Act and that it reasonable to expect the full enforcement of Federal firearm laws by the federal government. I don't know anyone who doesn't agree with LaPierre's statement.

Among many things that you said, this is probably the one that stood out to me. I realize someone else said it, but you seem pleased to have never met anyone who disagrees with the statement. Can you please explain to me in a logical manner how the Gun-Free Zone Act prevents any crime or death? People that plan on shooting up a school don't seem to notice that they are walking into a Gun Free Zone.

If you are ever in Austin for a book signing or for any other reason, please let me know. I will come introduce myself and shake your hand, and then you will know someone who disagrees with Mr. LaPierre's statement.
 
Dr. McDowell,

Welcome to the High Road. Thank you for taking the courage to speak openly about your thoughts regarding gun control.

Many here have made points that are much more detailed that I care to make.

My thoughts typically stay on a more broad philosophical plain.

It is my belief that the second amendment was established to give the citizens of this country the ability to fight a government that becomes over-zealous and/or tyrannical. It is my belief that the founders of this country fully understood the need for empowering the citizenry and giving them a means to not only protect themselves, but also their right to free speech.

In other words, it is the collective empowerment of the people that keeps the government in check. This is an extremely important concept in our nation's history and it is one that we cherish very deeply.

Earl McDowell said:
Dr. Catherine Christoffel, a Chicago pediatrician and spokeswomen for the fifty thousand members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the American Medical Association: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated."

Guns cannot be un-invented and will never be eradicated. At worst, your efforts will end with all law-abiding gun owners left defenseless.

~~~
Earl McDowell said:
At one time I owned three guns, but I didn't want them in my house as my daughters were growing up. In addition, I strongly support hunters as my grandfather, father, and brother were all avid hunters. During my teeage years I enjoyed hunting, but I enjoyed target shooting more than hunting small game and deer. My daughter who is a forensic scientist for the Illinois State police also enjoys target shooting.

You mentioned in your opening post that you got rid of your guns when your daughters were children. I assume that is because you thought guns were a danger to your household?

Perhaps it is just a simple difference in mindset, but my biggest fear is not having the means in which to defend my young daughter, son, and wife if evil comes lurking. I can make guns safe and I can even teach my children about their deadliness, but I cannot predict if or when an assault on me or my loved ones may take place. The recent tragedy in Cheshire, Conneticut is an example of my greatest fear.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter, and if in today's society you would still make the same decision as to removing the guns. One of your daughter's has grown up to be a shooter. It is possible that shooting could have been a great hobby for you and your daughter to enjoy together.

Thank you again for your open-mindedness and willingness to debate in a forum that supports opposing viewpoints.

I sincerely look forward to your replies to some of the thoughts given by THR members thus far.

Thanks,
John
 
Pardon my Brooklyn-bred street smarts/"paranoia," where one is trained from birth to always be alert for the "angle," but it looks to me like this is a backhanded marketing ploy --and a clever one at that.

For, after all, it is pretty likely that many anti-gunners peruse this forum, and would thereby be alerted to the fact that the book is available.

Beats an author tour. I'm curious as to whom the publisher is --a "Vanity House," perhaps?

Well, whether it's really an intentional marketing ploy or not...

..that's the way it looks to this old Brooklyn Coot.

------------
Footnotes:

1. I am always put off when someone says he "owns/owned N guns but," as if somehow that qualifies them as sympathetic to the spirit and explicit provisions of A2 or as being openminded or fair about it.

2. Mea culpa: In this particular instance, I shall have to confess that time restrictions have prevented me from reading the thread past page two. Should my Brooklyn-bred suspicion noted above have been dealt with, I shall gleefully confess my error and delete this post. And maybe I can still catch the 8:36 bus.
 
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Mr. McDowell, my question here will be short.

How can any liberal support gun control given its racist and classist roots?

How can any liberal support gun control at all, given our current administration? There are 300 million guns in the hands of citizens. Get rid of them, and how bad do you think Bush will be then?

Why are you being so intolerant of those who make different life choices than you? Why are you being so conservative, archaic, sexist, and anti-progressive?
 
Dear Earl McDowell

Assuming you came here to debate in a civil fashion. I have a question for you. If you support licensing and registration, would you agree that the NFA registry needs to be re-opened. The NFA in the US is the prime example of why, we do not trust or like any of your proposals. The number of crimes committed with NFA registered machine guns is small (well under 10). Why was it necessary for the anti-gun movement to enact a de-facto prohibition on NFA in 1986? Why would any future registration scheme be any different. After all in states like NY and MA where guns require permits, it is impossible to get said permits.

If you are sincere in your intent, please state your position on the reopening of the NFA registry.
 
"Some seemed open-minded. Several mentioned that gun control would lead to confication. This is ridiculous. Can you imagine the U.S. government coming to your homes and taking your guns at gun point?"

Why yes, yes I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

No imagination required. Regardless, one does not alter the Constitution based on what one can “imagine” happening or not happening. The responses by the author only confirm for me it’s a book not worth considering and ads absolutely nothing new to the debate, and the “I think the 2A is out of date so we should change it” being perhaps the weakest and most feeble of all the anti gun arguments.
 
Thank You Thr Members

THR Members,

While I consider myself a decent debater in the fight to preserve our gun rights, I have learned a ton more just reading the last 2 pages of posts to Dr. McDowell. I have to say that most of the responses to the good Dr. have been nothing short of excellent.

I just want to give a little credit where credit is due. Without involvement and passion, our gun rights would continue to erode. So thanks for keeping up with the relevant and passing it on to others. I know it takes time to find this information and a significant level of dedication.

These kinds of threads rock.

On a sidenote: Dr. McDowell, I respect you a lot more for coming into the forum and giving your side. I will probably end up reading your book, although as I mentioned in earlier posts, I doubt that I will see any new argument produced. After reading your post, it appears to be the same old tired arguments regarding the need and the solution that gun control offers.
 
There are so may other accidental causes of death more significant than guns, that writing a book to justify gun control is an exercise in venting.

Eliminating motor vehicle accidents, falls, choking, drowning and poisoning would be far easier and more effective at improving safety. (National Safety Council)

And among leading causes of death, accidents (only a minuscule % due to guns) are in the top ten ranking but intentional causes (homicide) don't even make the top 10.

So the desire and urge to ban guns is based on either ignorance or bias against guns.

Registering guns? How many MV accidents have been prevented by registering cars? Give me a break. There is no public safety value in registering guns.

It's all about control (and registration fees for cars).
 
Earl McDowell said:
Several mentioned that gun control would lead to confiscation. This is ridiculous. Can you imagine the U.S. government coming to your homes and taking your guns at gunpoint?

First, welcome to THR.

Secondly, actually, yes I can imagine the above scenario. I will point out that it (so far) hasn't been the federal govt., and sometimes it doesn't happen at gunpoint.
In California, the Roberti-Roos law required registration of "assault rifles." Several years later some models were banned -- and the Roberti Roos list was used to mail owners letters stating they needed to surrender their guns, or move them out of state.
During the 1960's this exact sort of thing was debated in New York City; a registration was passed, and in the 90's under Mayor Dinkins, some of those guns were banned. NYPD ES (Emergency Services, or "SWAT") teams made several "dynamic" entries on people who supposedly had kept their guns past the final date, only to learn the family supposedly living at the address had long since moved elsewhere.
This is not what I want to see in America. I am unconcerned, in fact, whether the govt. comes at us with their guns, or their district attorneys.

Your idea to use registration to prevent "straw buyers" sound good, but criminals will continue to acquire guns illegally through other methods. One method criminals apparantly acquire a lot of their guns from is family. If this is true preventing straw purchasers would be of little use.

With due respect, you can quote any number of experts who claim the 2A can be "interpreted" to mean that the government can restrict the types of firearms we may own, and I can find any number of quotes -- many from contemporaries of the founders -- that claim otherwise.

Also, again respectfully, claiming the idea the government doing something is "ridiculous" is hardly a great criteria for arguing the government will not do something, or will not try to do something. I'm sure if anyone here put their mind to it they could list numerous things the government has done or tried which they consider "ridiculous."
 
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Dr. McDowell, as the first who said they would read your book but not buy it, I'm not sure why you find that distressing? What is more important to you, your ideological position or your financial position?

I'm not suggesting that you are going to make a pile of money from your book, we all know that is far from reality. I'm interested in why you would expect your opposition to help finance that which would hurt their cause?

Now, in your first post to this board I noticed your calls for compromise, my question to you is: What do you have to offer in return for the inherent rights that you wish for me to relinquish?
 
McDowell supports licensing and registration of all firearms, but does not want to take them all away from us.

Been there, done that - and now Canada's violent crime rate is double that of most places in the U.S. and climbing...

And just because HE doesn't (he says) want to take all our guns doesn't mean that registration isn't the perfect tool for someone ELSE to do so, sooner or later. Witness Ontario, present day.

Canada: If we can't serve as a shining example, at least let us serve as a horrible warning :)
 
I first got involved in the pro-and-con arguments about gun control during the run-up to the GCA of 1968. There are very few arguments, either way, that I haven't heard a dozen times or more. Mostly more, so when they arise again I tend to suffer a serious attack of MEGO*.

Our entire criminal justice system is set up to punish wrongdoers after the fact. None of our laws "against" some criminal action have ever prevented such actions. It doesn't matter if it's speeding in your car, embezzling money, robbing banks or shooting somebody. Laws don't prevent.

Probably the best study ever done on guns, violent crime and the passage of gun control laws was done by Wright/Rossi/Daly, in "Under The Gun". Published in 1985 by the Univ. of Fla Press. It has been available from Amazon.com. The primary conclusion by these rather liberal, mildly-anti-gun statisticians was that no gun control law passed by the Florida legislature had ever affected the rate of violent crime involving firearms in the state of Florida. And that was post GCA 1968, remember.

I've become rather fond of the word "Inefficacious". It applies to most of the schemes involving control of firearms.

Registration? The I word. The money does not exist for the criminal justice system to deal with the millions of previously honest scofflaws who would be criminalized by such a law. Micro-stamping? The I word. You'd have to outlaw Dremel tools, which is a lost cause in itself.

My final comment is to the sociological aspects: The best thing that ever happened to the firearms industry in America was Clinton's ban on the mis-named "assault weapons". Per the BATF, sales of firearms into the US market ran somewhere north of four million per year. I'm assuming US purchases, here; BATF stated five million manufactured each year. So, since this has continued on into this century, some 60 million total, at least. My conclusion--supported by past statewide referendums on the subject--is that the public rejects anything that appears to reduce the ability for self defense. This is no different a behavior pattern than that of the "no new machine guns" law of 1986, when the population of full-auto weapons tripled in the few months after passage.

I never question the sincerity or integrity of most of those who seek ways to reduce violent crime--so long as that is the obvious purpose. I do question the knowledge and experience of the world we live in, the "real world" aka "out on the street".

Art

* MEGO: Mine Eyes Glazeth Over.
 
"...the Founding Fathers imagined a time when over 30,000 people each year are dying from gun violence

Per capita, more people died violently back then than now. How that justifies making law-abiding people less secure by denying them arms is still a mystery to me.
 
Can you imagine the U.S. government coming to your homes and taking your guns at gun point?

Dr., our own late and beloved Hubert H. Humphrey once stated:

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms ... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard, against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be always possible."
-- Hubert H. Humphrey, Senator, Vice President, 22 October 1959


He was no radical gun nut. I cannot envision our federal government as it exists today going door to door confiscating firearms. I can envision it happening in the future if the right people are elected into power or otherwise gain power. I don't believe that HHH was stupid, ignorant or paranoid.

Thanks for entering here and posting your opinions. I believe the other posters have addressed most of your points.
 
Welcome to THR, Dr. McDowell. I hope you are learning something from all you are reading here, because these gentlemen (and y'all are behaving as gentlemen, applause to you all) are making very clear the logical fallacies of the arguments you've set forth.

But I'm going to wade in on a different point...the "guns and women" and "guns and children". As you can see from my screen name, I have a significant interest in both. Here is what you said:

My last point deals with guns and women and guns and children. The statistics are overwhelming and easily accessible on the internet. I cite many statisitics in my book, and I am very careful in drawing conclusions. It is obvious we have too many guns in our society. Dr. Catherine Christoffel, a Chicago pediatrician and spokeswomen for the fifty thousand members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the American Medical Association: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated." She went on: "Get rid cigarettes, get rid of secondhand smoke, and you get rid of lung cancer. It is the same with guns. Get rid of guns, get rid of bullets, and you get rid of deaths." She concluded her speech with "A handgun in the home turns so many situations lethal." In fact over 750 spouses each year are killed by firearms. As far as I know no one gave their spouse a lethal injection, but a few were poisoned.

It is certainly a serious concern that a woman, whether or not she is a mother with children, is at risk for being the victim of a violent crime. While it is true that men are sometimes the victim of rape, the overwhelming majority of rape cases that are reported each year are cases of male on female rape. And although some men are the victims of domestic violence (the pastor's wife who shot her husband with a shotgun, and who was just this week released from a treatment facility comes to mind), still the overwhelming majority of victims of domestic violence are women and their children, perpetrated by husbands, boyfriends, and male acquaintences.

How, exactly, do you think that gun registration is going to change this? Are you under the impression that a man who is willing to commit the crime of rape is going to abide by the law to register the gun he terrorizes his victims with? Do you think that the abusive boyfriend, father, husband, is going to give a thought to these laws, when they are willing to cross the line on that most basic of human values, the protection of their women and children?

Here in Texas, where concealed carry is legal with a permit, there are exceptions to where one can carry. These exceptions must be designated with a special sign, with specific wording. Every time I pass one of those (and I *never* enter a forbidden facility while carrying my own concealed handgun) I chuckle. The idea that a criminal who wants to rob the restaurant, terrorize the hospital for drugs, or interfere with whatever business goes on in that building, is ludicrous. The bad guys don't read the signs, don't care about the signs, don't obey the signs. They're the bad guys, remember?

Same with gun registration. The gentlemen who have responded before me have done a better job than I could ever hope to do, in responding to most of your post. But I want to end with a few questions for you to ponder, and I hope you will give them some thought:

1) A woman who is armed and trained to use her handgun can protect herself from the rapist who wants to violate and perhaps kill her. Why should she be denied this right, as you wished to do in Minnesota?

2) A woman who is armed can protect herself and her children in the face of home invasions, which have become a distressingly more common event. Why should her gun be taken away because some physician thinks of it as "a virus that must be eradicated"?

3) A woman who is armed "evens the playing field" against a husband, father, boyfriend, or acquaintance who would victimize her children or herself. She is likely to be smaller and weaker and unable to fight physically against such a person. Why should she lose that equality in a conflict when to lose it may cost her her life?

The best way a woman can protect herself and her children is not to get the guns out of her house. It is to use them, train with them, practice with them, and be ready and able to counter any threat that comes through her door. Gone are the days when women and children were spared by thieves and robbers. Gone are the days when a woman could surrender her jewelry and be released unmolested. Gone are the days when a home was a safe haven that no band of violent thieves would invade. And gone are the days that women could pretend that they did not need to know how to protect themselves, and their children, because they would not be harmed.

"It's for the children" has been done to death as a rallying cry for anti-gun forces. I say to you: it is for my children, and for myself, that I own and carry and practice and train with my handguns, that I carry a concealed handgun permit and wear a gun on my belt every single day. I will not be a victim!

Springmom
 
By the way, Dr. McDowell, would you care to let us know if you are a member of Americans for Gun Safety?

I too have children. Some of them have already left the nest. I keep most of my firearms under lock and key to reduce the chance of theft. Rather than eliminating guns from my house, I educated my children to respect them and make them aware of the potential danger in playing with them or mishandling them. My wife and several of my kids have completed gun safety training. My three daughters have all fired one or more of my firearms at various times. I needed no govt. licensing and registry system to ensure that they completed their safety instruction or to tell me to lock up most of my firearms.

You chose to eliminate firearms from your home. In a free society, that is your choice and your's alone, or at least it should be.

Many people believe strongly that we should focus on more and better sex education to prevent unwanted pregnancies and STD's, instead of teaching abstinence. However, many of those same people think we should teach abstinence instead of gun safety when it comes to preventing gun accidents. I see a logical disconnect there.
 
Unlike other volumes on the gun issue, America's Great Gun Game challenges the National Rifle Association's interpretation of the Second Amendment by citing the opinions of Supreme Court justices, the president of the American Bar Association, state and federal legislators, and former U.S. presidents.

::chuckles::

Guess what's missing? :p
 
Quote:
"...the Founding Fathers imagined a time when over 30,000 people each year are dying from gun violence
Per capita, more people died violently back then than now. How that justifies making law-abiding people less secure by denying them arms is still a mystery to me.

Yep, that was what I was going to say.
 
If licensing and registration of firearms is the key to reducing violent crime, then Dr. McDowell should be able to provide the data set which shows the violent crime rate in Canada dropping after they implemented their $Billion plus registration scheme. Instead, the Mayor of Toronto and several members of the government in Ottawa want to now move forward with a total ban on handguns because their violent crime rates in the larger cities have been on the rise as of late. Of course they also blame lax gun laws in the US for their gun violence problem, but that's nothing new. If we ever get to the point where either register and license or ban all guns, we'll be able to blame Mexico and the Chinese for smuggling in guns that we're not supposed to have or are supposed to have registered.

Also, please do some research into the how the violent crime rates are escalating in South Africa. They also have very tight control of guns.
 
If the good professor was sincerely interested in debating then why doesn't he first complete the following task:

Write a book about all the reasons why there should be NO gun control - and how Americans are safer because they own guns.

Since he is a college professor he should be able to come up with a good argument about our side of things - and do the research to support it. From what I learned when I went to college I thought the point of research was to come up with the facts to validate your argument - which goes to the point that many of the previous respondents mentioned: the good Prof. has already made up his mind - committed it to paper, and put that opinion out there in the most public way.

When that pro-gun book is published then we will be ready for a fair debate here on THR on whose viewpoint is correct.

Until that time I am siding with a good many of the previous respondents - past experience with gun-banner types makes me think that any debate with this person is just a underhanded fishing expedition to get some juicy quotes for another book about how the redneck gun owners are a danger to us all and guns deserve to be registered - with the ultimate goal being confiscation
 
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