America's Great Gun Game--a new book on gun control

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So, if the second amendment isn't guaranteeing an individual right to arms, but in fact a government right to form militias, which other of the bill of rights are written to protect the 'rights' of the government? It seems to me to be mental contortion to be able to reconcile the idea the first amendment is an individual right but the second is not.

If it is an individual right, as I firmly believe it to be, that right wasn't created when it was mentioned in the bill of rights, it existed long before that document and continues to exist regardless of that document's wording, either at present or in any future modification.

Any right which is relinquished to the point where permission from the government is required prior to its exercise has ceased to be a right and has turned into a privilege.

All the measures proposed for the stated purpose of crime reduction, if implemented would in fact take my right to be armed away from me, unless the government says its o.k.,and that translates to being my 'PRIVILEGE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS'.

My opposition to any form of permits or registration is based on my concept of freedom and just isn't negotiable.
 
Tommygun wrote:

Also, again respectfully, claiming the idea the governement doing something is "ridiculous" is hardly a great criteria for arguing the government will not do something, or will not try to do something. I'm sure if anyone here put their mind to it they could list numerous things the government has done or tried which they consider "ridiculous."

Right on Tommygun!

How many university professors believe that it was totally and absolutely ridiculous for the federal government to invade Iraq? i'm guessing the percentage would be upwards of 90%. Any bets?
 
Steve499 wrote:If it is an individual right, as I firmly believe it to be, that right wasn't created when it was mentioned in the bill of rights, it existed long before that document and continues to exist regardless of that document's wording, either at present or in any future modification.


That's right Steve, no pun intended. If Dr. McDowell had really looked at this objectively, he would also have discovered the USSC case (US vs. Cruikshank) which stated that the right to keep and bear arms is not a right "granted" by the Constitution, nor is it in any way dependent upon it for it's existence. This means that the right is not granted but guaranteed by the 2nd A. The right exists on it's own. It only relies on the 2nd Amendment for it's protection against infringement by the government. In that case, the court said this was protection from the federal government (congress) only. The court did not explixity state whether it believed that the states could infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms, however, this finding would seem to leave it open that the states possibly could infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms. Certainly the national government could not. There goes your national licensing and registration scheme. I also believe that any state that belongs to the union must also protect our individual rights. That remains a topic of debate. We'll see where the Washington DC court case goes. The circuit court of appeals found the city's handgun ban to be in violation of the Second Amendment. I looks as though it's headed to the USSC, if they decide to take it.
 
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Dr. McDowell, welcome to The High Road.

I will not waste time itemizing a response to your post as others have done so far more eloquently than I could.

I will, however, make an assertion that I haven't seen in previous posts in this thread. My assertion is this ... Your beliefs, as outlined in your book and in your post, stem from a flawed presumption, namely that everyone thinks, feels, and acts the way you do.

This presumption allows you the luxury of believing a law banning, registering, or restricting the legal purchase of firearms will stop a criminal from possession, purchasing, and using said firearms. It will not. A criminal is, by definition, someone who neither obeys nor respects the law. As a result the only persons affected by yet another "sensible" gun law are those who already obey the stupifyingly complex and endless list of laws currently enforced.

You also presume that persons intent on illegally transporting and selling firearms do so by first purchasing those items from legitimate gun dealers or from law-abiding individuals in a private sale. They do not. They steal them, they buy them on a street corner, they get them in back-alley trades. The purchases made from legitimate sources are, most likely, done in such a way that yet another law would make no difference. Given enough incentive, there will always be someone somewhere that will "straw purchase" a firearm. If all else fails, the criminal can simply make their own. Any person with access to basic tools can, literally in minutes, contruct a working firearm. Repeat-fire weapons are slightly more of a challenge, but only just. In short, criminals will always have access to guns, no matther how many laws are enacted.

Your presumptions are flawed and simple analysis proves so. Some 100 million persons in possession of 300 million firearms (gross estimates) live and work in this country each and every day. If the guns and, by association, the majority of gun owners were the problem, the streets would be running rivers of blood. They are not. And they aren't because the vast majority of gun owners are law-abiding, responsible citizens. You propose to take those good citizens and turn them into pariah.

Your presumptions defy both logic and history. They also fail when compared directly with a truely unbiased analysis of violent crime. By unbiased I mean a double-blind analysis by uninvolved third parties of raw data from entities such as the US Dept of Justice, not the highly filtered and laughably twisted material presented by Amercans for Gun Safety and the Brady Center.

I appreciate your coming to the board and presenting your side and enjoyed see what you had to say. I cannot, however, capitulate to your position as I see it being fundamentally flawed.

Brad
 
Virus?

Dr. Catherine Christoffel, a Chicago pediatrician and spokeswomen for the fifty thousand members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the American Medical Association: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated." She went on: "Get rid cigarettes, get rid of secondhand smoke, and you get rid of lung cancer. It is the same with guns. Get rid of guns, get rid of bullets, and you get rid of deaths."
This is certainly an unstable leg to use in support of gun abolition.

Let us address the content directly:
"Guns are a virus . . ."
Well, no, they are not. Not in any viable sense of the word. Not in their physical manifestation, not in their production, not in their dissemination. This is the worst sort of broken metaphor: "learned" hyperbole. There is simply no supportable avenue for this assertion.

On the other hand, let's examine something that DOES spread by contagion (since this is the essence of the "virus" allegation). Let's examine bad thinking. Let's examine false data. Let's examine hysteria and phobia. It is significantly more plausible to say that "hysteria and flawed reasoning promoting irrational fears by using 'authority' and falsified facts" is a virus.

Hysteria spreads the way a virus spreads: by contagion via persons who have no natural or inoculated resistance to the emotional "carrier wave" of the message of fear. Rumors (factually unverified stories of alleged events) spread the same way. It is an axiom of politics that what a public hears often enough "becomes the truth" for that public.

Guns don't spread virally. There simply is no mechanism for it. One could plausibly assert that cars spread virally, but the mechanism there is aesthetics conveyed through popular media and a wide cultural acceptance and constant open exposure.

There simply is not any equivalent conduit for guns. Instead, guns are constantly and unremittingly vilified, constantly attributed with evil, constantly prohibited, constantly blamed for criminal acts, and constantly used as a scapegoat for a myriad of social ills. Spread virally? Not hardly.

Let us address the other point:
"Get rid cigarettes, get rid of secondhand smoke, and you get rid of lung cancer. It is the same with guns. Get rid of guns, get rid of bullets, and you get rid of deaths."
Amazing. Staggering. The use of a falsehood to promote a factual hyperbole, followed by yet another falsehood.

This level of dishonesty in presentation is breathtaking, inasmuch as it is so compactly presented and done with the clinical "precision" of a diagnosis -- completely dismissive of any alternative view.

Yeah, guns are a virus; get rid of them and people will stop dying.
That's not just ONE falsehood, it's two. And they don't even depend on one another; both assertions are independently false. This gives rise to a third, but more subtle falsehood, being that death is the natural consequence of guns.

Yeah, cancer is caused by secondhand smoke, so we have to get rid of cigarettes.
That secondhand smoke causes cancer is yet another piece of politically driven "science" having no foundation in actual fact. It was trotted out to support the punitive taxation of tobacco. Any number of social programs were then funded by this new revenue stream.
In my own home state, a scholarship program was instituted that would be "completely funded" by tobacco monies. The joke, of course, is that this taxation has accomplished just what taxation always does: it has caused a steep reduction in revenues, leading to the legislature's having to appropriate monies from other revenue because, after all, just because the promised tobacco revenue has dried up, that's no reason to discontinue the "cost free" scholarship program.​
The secondhand smoke boogieman has been used to impose any number of restrictions "for our own protection" when in reality these restrictions are simply behavioral control.

To use this piece of false data to support the hyperbole (guns are a virus) is so far from anything resembling science that its use can only be understood to be disingenuous.

In the vernacular: it's a tissue of lies used to hide the motives of the person using the argument.

It's dishonest. It's dishonest and hides its political motives behind false science.

I don't believe I could bring myself to study a book, other than as a clinical exercise, that was written from this approach to "research."

Such an endeavor would amount to intellectual assault.

Sadly, however, this intellectual assault will be used as another weapon in the ongoing cultural assault against individual liberty.

And this I cannot condone.
 
America's Great Gun Game

It is I again, Earl McDowell. It was nice to read your comments. I learned a great deal. As a professor I'm constantly learning from my students. It would be nice to meet you and discuss the issue, and it would be nice if I had time to respond to each of your statements. Unfortunately, I'm very busy, but I will try to respond more over the weekend.

I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28

I received an email today that indicated two more people have purchased my book. You know what that means: I can buy another cup of coffee.
 
Earl, now why would I want to spend time around people who seek only to demonize ous "good willed" folks.

I'm fully aware of just how ignorant the Bradys and MMM are, their intentions ill placed or not, I simply cannot support fools. Don't mean to be rude but that's just the way I see it.
 
I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28

Out of curiosity, what have you read at this forum that has lead you to believe any here hope an anti-gun protest is successful?
 
This thread is one of the greatest ones I have read in quite sometime, and is the best example of why I "lurk" here on a daily basis. Keep up the good work.
 
Good Will

I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28
The Brady Campaign does not conduct itself within the parameters of good will.

They have repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to lie openly, to falsify facts, and to attack and vilify those whom they regard as opponents to accomplish a singular end: the complete elimination of firearms from society.

I cannot wish them success.

Their success would be catastrophic for America. And not in any hyperbolic sense.

The harm they do is not theoretical.

The people they harm suffer greatly.

Even unto death.

I must, instead, wish the Brady Campaign as ignominious and unpleasant an end as is possible.
 
It is I again, Earl McDowell.

Something about that post makes that little bell in the back of my head start to ring. No one in a learned position announces themselves in this manner (that is, unless they are supremely engrossed in themselves and absolutely certain of their superiority over any other member of the human race).

I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28

Nice try. Guilt-tripping is a juvenile tactic. It is used by the small-minded and factually vacant. It is the last-ditch attempt to force an emotional obligation on those who would otherwise feel little or no actual need to attend your event.

Something about the premise of this thread suddenly doesn't feel right. I'm beginning to think this is all an elaborate charade by an AGS or BB member attempting to bait us into something.

Brad
 
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I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28

I have no good will at all toward a group that wishes to see me disarmed so that a violent criminal can harm me or my family. The Brady Campaign and its "Million Mom March" base their arguments on lies, deceptive statistics, hyperbole and hysterics. Far better for those Million Moms to learn how to defend themselves and their children if the need arises.

Springmom
 
Dr. McDowell, thank you for continuing to engage in this discussion. I hope you find your visit here an enjoyable one, even though we may disagree on particular issues.

I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28
The Brady Campaign's #1 legislative priority is banning the lawful sale and ownership of the most popular civilian target rifles in America, including half the guns my wife and I own, and restricting the rest to pre-1861 magazine capacities.

Until they shift their focus to criminal gun misuse instead of attacking lawful and responsible ownership, I'll not be wishing them well, I'm afraid...
 
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I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28

No thanks Doc, for reasons already mentioned.

And your invitation raises my level of concern about this thread and your goal.

We are willing to debate, friend. But we are not willing to campaign for your cause when so many of us and our loved ones have died to ensure the rights your cause wants harvested.

Thanks, but no thanks.

If you'd like to debate, please feel free. You've noticed we're an open-minded bunch. But there is no need for invitations to participate in your campaign. You're only baiting our membership by making such an invitation.
 
I was going to post this earlier but I did not because I felt it would be deleted. Who knows, it probably might be anyways.

I'm guessing this character posting is a troll and you guys are just jumping all over his posts like a kid in a candy store. It's too much of an opportunity and I doubt that such a person would waste his time defending his claims on 'the internets' when he has already published a book for the ignorant masses to read.
 
I'm guessing this character posting is a troll and you guys are just jumping all over his posts like a kid in a candy store. It's too much of an opportunity and I doubt that such a person would waste his time defending his claims on 'the internets' when he has already published a book for the ignorant masses to read.
If you look at his book, his statements here are entirely consistent with him being who he says he is. Methinks if a troll were going to impersonate someone, he would use a persona more familiar to the average gun owner.

One of the purposes of THR is to engage non-gun-owners and others who are not all that familiar with the "gun culture," as some would term it. This is one of those threads that reminds me why I enjoy being a member here, and I hope he continues to participate in the thread.
 
I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28

I would if they were actually trying to do something about illegal guns.

However, based on the information on the web site, they'll be protesting in front of legal storefront dealers rather than in the back alleys among those that cling to the underside of most cities.

Or they could lend their efforts to increasing funding to local police to assist them in their efforts to control the criminal misuse of firearms.

But no, they'll be making a nuisance of themselves in front of people running one of the most regulated businesses in the country.
 
This is one of those threads that reminds me why I enjoy being a member here, and I hope he continues to participate in the thread.

Only if he abides by the rules and doesn't bait other members. And, personally, I can't help but believe he was intending to bait us with his comments about the Bradys and the (falsely named) Million Mom March.
 
What exactly is the his PhD in? Looking at the University of Minnesota, they list Earl E. McDowell, Professor Ph.D. in Speech Communication. Is that the right person? If so, I fail to see how he’s qualified to even present himself as an authority as either researcher of data or as constitutional legal scholar or even as historian. A PhD in English does not qualify one to write about quantum physics, etc, etc.

That is not to say Dr. McDowell can’t add valuable opinion to the debate as we all are capable, but he’s certainly not uniquely qualified to write a book on the topic, and his general conclusions and comments in this thread prove that….just sayin’…..:scrutiny:
 
I have a problem with the term "illegal guns".

When I lived in D.C. and Chicago, even though I legally purchased the firearms, I possessed "illegal guns" since I owned firearms contrary to local law. I take offense to Mayor Daley or other dimwitted politicians defining what rights of mine are legal and what rights are illegal.

Politicians will not tell me what books I can and cannot read. Government will not tell me what firearms I may own, as the Second Amendment recognizes.

The problem with "illegal guns" is that it pretends that the problem is the inert mechanical device rather than human will.
 
I'm sure since you are citizens of good will you will join with me to hope that the following event will be successful:

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28
You probably won't find alot of us support the 20,000 mom march around here. Aside from their misuse of tax exempt money, just just not even civil. Feel free to read the documentation and watch the videos from one of our Viriginia members at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/2929.html I'd like to know if you still feel comfortable aligning yourself with this organization after reading it and watching their behavior. You are also aware that they support the banning of semi-automatic firearms right, I didn't think you wanted to be that extreme.
 
Yeah

What intrigues me is that it doesn't sound the same as poster in this thread.

Brady Campaign with its Million Mom March Chapters Join in National Day of Protest against Illegal guns on August 28
Hmmm, I am starting to think we've been had.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and say exactly zero copies of this book get purchased by any THR members

Hi Coyote,

Just for the record, one of the main tenets of both strategy and tactics has always been to know your opponent. While you and I may not agree with the authors' points I, for one, would rather form my arguments in advance rather than at the spur of the moment.
 
To pick a semantic nit: How can there be such a thing as an "illegal gun"? Via certain laws, it can be illegal for some particular person to own a gun, but the gun itself is merely an inanimate object. I think "Larry the Cable Guy" made as good a comment about this sort of thinking as anybody ever has. :D

But this of course typifies the problem in dealing with gun-control proponents such as the Brady crowd and the MMMs: Fuzzy thinking, ignorance and illogic...

Art
 
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