Amish man sues to buy firearm without photo ID in gun rights, religious freedom suit
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ares338
Member
I could give a rats patoot less about the religious issue. To me the issue is whether or not each and every person has to obey the same rules. Anyone can claim a religious relief from this or that. Get out of the middle ages.
chipcom
member
Incorrect. All people are born with those inalienable rights...some of them are merely born into countries with governments that do not recognize those rights or allow their citizens to exercise them.
If you were born into a country where they did not recognize your inalienable right to defend yourself, would you allow someone to harm you without attempting to fight back?
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Or looked at another way, why do ANY of us have to follow these inane rules? If the Amish can find a way to skirt them, I think we should applaud that.
Pretty hilarious considering the whole founding philosophy of the Old Order culture.
Akin to someone telling one of us, "get rid of those guns and join the new world order!"
chipcom
member
I'm all for it. It's not like all the criminals who want guns don't already have them or can't get them.
I am a free, law-abiding responsible citizen...I don't need government certification or permission to exercise those rights unless my ACTIONS prove otherwise...at which time I should be imprisoned and kept there until such time, if ever, that I can again be trusted to be law-abiding and responsible. Background checks and ID requirements obviously don't stop those who are criminals (but have not been caught yet) from obtaining firearms...unless they are dumb enough to submit to those requirements...so all those checks accomplish is to make it harder for the free, law-abiding folk to buy firearms.
As for those who are prohibited from owning firearms...if they cannot be trusted with a firearm, then they cannot be trusted to be free among the rest of us and should either be incarcerated or executed. This paradigm of letting (convicted/certified) goblins roam free among us who cannot be trusted with a firearm is freakin crazy.
KansasSasquatch
Member
This is essentially my point as well. If the Amish can skirt the laws to buy firearms because the law infringes on their religion, whats to stop Muslims from practicing Sharia law because our laws infringe upon their beliefs?
Either we all abide by the same anti-2A laws or we find a way to get rid of those law.
oneounceload
member
Like the Jews in Germany during WWII?
Here in FL, in order to vote, you MUST present a current valid picture ID and your address is checked to verify you are in the proper polling precinct. A few exceptions to the address I cannot check are LEO, Judges, and similar folks whose home location is protected by law.
It would be nice to go back to 1967 as far as buying guns, but it will never happen.
45_auto
Member
chipcom said:
Kind of like Jesus on the cross?
Sorry to disappoint you, but there's not many people out there who believe that I'm the next Messiah.
45_auto
Member
I didn't say that 95% of the world had no rights, I just stated that they disagreed with you.
But as long as you're happy with what you believe is freedom, reality is irrelevant.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/19/u-s-falls-to-20th-in-freedom-index/
without the RKBA, you are not truly free.....your freedom is only one vote from being taken away...
i have the right to own a .50bmg rifle, i have the right to carry a handgun on my person, no one can make me do anything i dont want to do, they have to negotiate with me now.....they can pass all the laws they want, the people in this country have the means to say "no", should they so choose.......they cant say that in the UK, they cant say that in HongKong, they cant say that in Australia..
so you tell me whos really free here, a country that has an armed populous, or a country that ranks higher on a chart.
i have the right to own a .50bmg rifle, i have the right to carry a handgun on my person, no one can make me do anything i dont want to do, they have to negotiate with me now.....they can pass all the laws they want, the people in this country have the means to say "no", should they so choose.......they cant say that in the UK, they cant say that in HongKong, they cant say that in Australia..
so you tell me whos really free here, a country that has an armed populous, or a country that ranks higher on a chart.
barnbwt
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"But as long as you're happy with what you believe is freedom, reality is irrelevant."
People are 'happy' witth a whole lot of horrible situations the world over. Usually more so when kept in ignorance and privation. Man's capacity for happiness in the face of adversity is not a good measure of freedom. Again, moral relativism has proven time and again to be a terrible philosophical principle. Right up there with believing the outside world's horrors don't matter since our race is superior (same end result of inaction on the part of the strong to aid the week, after all). North Korea's culture is indescribably evil at this time, and its denizens deserve better than they are capable of desiring in their condition; this is objective fact. Knowing this serves to both affirm what inroads we have achieved in pursuit if freedom, how far we have left to go, and potentially can lead to the betterment of those still enslaved (by spreading the message of freedom to the ignorant and aiding the deprived)
Knowing what freedom is makes obtaining it and keeping it possible. The idea it is variable or relative is nonsense, and goes against the very idea of inalienable rights intrinsic to the human condition (yes, there are people who deny this, usually on anti-religious grounds)
"so you tell me whos really free here, a country that has an armed populous, or a country that ranks higher on a chart."
We'll see in approximately one year. Those charts are more useful for trending than comparisons, but the US is rapidly becoming authoritarian at this point. It remains to be seen if our system can still self correct, or 'govern,' or if we will continue a slow, then rapid slide into despotism. A lot of events are being set into motion that suggest this, but they are being orchestrated almost entirely by an elderly generation that is just as mortal as the rest of us (for now)
TCB
People are 'happy' witth a whole lot of horrible situations the world over. Usually more so when kept in ignorance and privation. Man's capacity for happiness in the face of adversity is not a good measure of freedom. Again, moral relativism has proven time and again to be a terrible philosophical principle. Right up there with believing the outside world's horrors don't matter since our race is superior (same end result of inaction on the part of the strong to aid the week, after all). North Korea's culture is indescribably evil at this time, and its denizens deserve better than they are capable of desiring in their condition; this is objective fact. Knowing this serves to both affirm what inroads we have achieved in pursuit if freedom, how far we have left to go, and potentially can lead to the betterment of those still enslaved (by spreading the message of freedom to the ignorant and aiding the deprived)
Knowing what freedom is makes obtaining it and keeping it possible. The idea it is variable or relative is nonsense, and goes against the very idea of inalienable rights intrinsic to the human condition (yes, there are people who deny this, usually on anti-religious grounds)
"so you tell me whos really free here, a country that has an armed populous, or a country that ranks higher on a chart."
We'll see in approximately one year. Those charts are more useful for trending than comparisons, but the US is rapidly becoming authoritarian at this point. It remains to be seen if our system can still self correct, or 'govern,' or if we will continue a slow, then rapid slide into despotism. A lot of events are being set into motion that suggest this, but they are being orchestrated almost entirely by an elderly generation that is just as mortal as the rest of us (for now)
TCB
45_auto
Member
m-cameron said:
I'm not the one making the charts, your fellow citizens are. I don't understand why you're so upset that other people have different definitions of "freedom" than yours, which seems to be that you can own a semi-automatic rifle with a specific barrel length without a piece of government paper (just don't go full-auto or shorten that barrel without your "papers" from the government!). But I'm sure that many North Koreans also feel that they're "free"!
Since your definition of "free" is owning a gun, perhaps you should seriously consider moving to Mogadisha and experiencing true freedom. Legal full-auto, no NICS checks, no restrictions on bore size (destructive devices Ok - we can have RPG's!), no permit required to exercise your right to concealed carry anywhere in the country, etc! Pure unadultarated freedom!
However, many other people define freedom as "absence of coercive constraint", in other words, the absence of the government forcing it's citizens to do things.
Unfortunately, the only chart that the US currently ranks high on (#1, top of the chart!) is the incarceration rate chart. We imprison a larger percentage of our citizens than any other country in the world (US = 700 per 100k, Russia = 450, China = 165, etc, etc). With a greater percentage of our population held prisoner by the government than any other country in the world, it seems strange to think that we're "really free" compared to other countries.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/u...om-ranking-slips-below-france/article/2556322
http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/d...cracks-top-20-ranking-nations-overall-freedom
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Jackal
Member
If illegal immigrants can get free healthcare without a photo ID, then the Amish should be able to buy a gun without it as well.
The Alaskan
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Intersting. I assume (rightly or perhaps wrongly) that if you support the 2nd amendment, you might also support the 1st. The First Amendment is the absolute cornerstone of our democracy, our government, our shared national heritage. Without it, there is no point in a 2nd Amendment because there is nothing to "defend."
The First Amendment is the first because, when our founding fathers were framing the Constitution, they asked "what are the most important rights we should protect? and the first thing that came tot heir minds was the freedom of religion. Freedom of religion includes the right to live out one's faith in one's daily life free from government interference. Anything less than that is pointless.
Vern Humphrey
Member
No, it does not go against their religion. Plenty of Amish have guns and hunt.
The irony I see here is that anyone can vote without picture ID, but you can't open a bank account, buy tobacco or alcohol, or board a plane without a picture ID.
I may be off topic here,but I read some comments about Amish firearms and hunting.When I was a child in the 1950's I watched our Amish neighbor conduct a rabbit hunt in the meadow next to our house.He was a frugal man with a large family to support.He was carrying a single shot modern shotgun,probably 12 guage.He would slowly move from one grass clump to the next over the whole meadow.He was looking for the rabbits eye.He did not want running shots(too many pellets in the meat).He would take his shot at the nose from a few feet.He collected 4 rabbits while I watched.The hunt probably lasted about an hour on a cold November afternoon.
TimSr
Member
The reason why I specifically mentioned voting is because the argument is that you should not have to produce an ID to exercise a Constitutional right which then gets convoluted with having to purchase an ID as a tax on a Constitutional right.
Of course the 2A is also a Constitutional right but we don't hear much concern about poor people who want to get a gun but can't afford an ID.
The main differnce between the two, is that most gunowners do not object to showing an ID when buying a gun. (anything beyoned showing the ID is where most objection takes place.) For some reason the same people who demand ID, backgorund check, etc. etc. and usually the same ones who scream bloody murder if you want to see an ID to vote.
MICHAEL T
Member
Guess as I better tell my Amish neighbor he's in trouble . Now his phone is in Barn only answered doing working hours . elec also in barn only He has a tractor & equipment also a riding mower .
Seems all these are ok. House is still no elec and no phone . No cars either. Have no problems with them Their fine people and have been welcomed to our community. .
They'll use modern tools for work, and accept rides in automobiles for long trips. I have no problem with their living however they want either - just saying that from what I've seen in PA, they tend to avoid the use of modern technology in their personal lives.
But guns are hardly modern. Even the AR-15 is 50 years old at this point...
The Alaskan
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Does that mean I can buy one, shipped to my door, with my C&R? =)
The Alaskan said:
IIRC, Colt started making a semi-auto version for civilian sale in 1963, which would mean there are some semi-auto AR's out there that are over 50 years old. Either over 50 years old or on the C&R List is all that's required, right?
It's not really functionally different than an M-1 Carbine, just black and scary.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
If you can find one for sale that is older than the cutoff date, sure!
The Alaskan
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Actually, I'd rather have the carbine. ohhhhhhhhh burn. NOW it's a party! lol
TruthTellers
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The thing is it doesn't cost anything to vote, so adding the cost of a photo ID made it absolutely impossible to mandate people have photo ID's to vote. Buying a gun on the other hand costs money; even the cheapest guns at least $120. I imagine that the argument will be that if you can afford to buy a $120 gun, you can afford X amount to buy an ID.
If the system is going to be designed so that if you want to buy something to exercise your rights, be it second amendment for guns/ammo or ninth amendment for alcohol/tobacco you are required to show photo ID, then there needs to be a law passed that government provide every citizen with a free photo ID.
At that point, if everyone has access to photo identification, then there is no merit to the Supreme Court's ruling that it is unconstitutional to ask for photo ID at voting booths.
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