Ammo. Slow&heavy or fast&light?

[17poundr]

I was cheking out the .357 vs .44special thread, and one of the proponents of the 44special said, he preferred slow and heavy shooting guns to the 125grain .357mag in question...

This brings us to a rather eternal question, I mean it's as universal as 7.62x39 vs 5.56nato, or a fast 9mm parabellum vs a 45apc...

I would like to know, what exactly is the difference.

I have heard that some slow and heavy ammo in hollowpoints is better as it expands more shurely...

Then again I have heard that light and fast is good for the dissipated 'liquid shock' that it gives to the organs it 'nearly misses' as the body is 70-80% water, and the 'ripples' of the projectile moving through water, are so intence that they give damage to surrounding organs...

Then again even with ball ammunition I have heard that slow and heavy have more stopping power, as the difference between being prodded by a finger or prodded by a fist is felt (I'm shure many of us have tried this comparison as kids)..

So, gentlemen, please get yer wound ballistic books out, and fire away!

Mr Poundr.

 

[ranger335v]

I like Elmer Keiths answer; Big, heavy for sure and as fast as possible too. Those who think ol' Elmer preferred big and slow are only half right. High speed boulders will do the job, first time, every time.

Let me go to an extreme example to make my point. Suppose you let me throw two projectictles at your head. Golf balls and ping-pong balls are indentical in BC and about the same in diameter. It won't matter how fast I through the ping-pong ball you won't much notice it but that won't be so with the golf ball even if it impacts at a slightly lower speed.

The same factors come into play with bullets.

"Hydrostatic shock" effect seems to occur in the 2800 + fps range, well above any handgun speeds and above the terminal speed of may hunting rifles.

 

[eltorrente]

Then again I have heard that light and fast is good for the dissipated 'liquid shock' that it gives to the organs it 'nearly misses' as the body is 70-80% water, and the 'ripples' of the projectile moving through water, are so intence that they give damage to surrounding organs...

No - not for handgun rounds. There is NO standard handgun caliber (.44 included), that produces that kind of energy and does that sort of damage. Only rifles produce that sort of energy.

 

[Geronimo45]

I have heard that some slow and heavy ammo in hollowpoints is better as it expands more shurely...

Don't think that's the case... now, rifle rounds like 5.56 may fragment on hitting your insides - but with handguns, I've heard that functioning 9mm HPs were easier to make than .45 HPs... from what I've read/heard, it's easier to get a fast-moving bullet to expand - but they've figured out methods to make .45s to expand nicely.

Personally, I don't care too much either way. I think even the pretty low-powered .25 ACP FMJ meets FBI minimum penetration standards. Read enough stories of supposedly weak, lousy rounds taking people out to believe that there's not quite so much difference 'twixt calibers in 'stopping power' as some would argue.

 

[lawson4]

Think of it this way: would you rather get hit with a baseball traveling at 90 mph or a bowling ball at 70 mph?
Fast and heavy is the best combo, providing your shot placement is good (practice, practice, practice). Just like real estate it's "location, location, location".

lawson4

 

[obxned]

Big, slow .45s do the job, so do fast light .357s.

 

[trueblue1776]

I enjoy 85gr .357sig loads with the complimentary 5 foot flame.

 

[10-Ring]

How about 10mm and 338 lapua?

 

[Kilgor]

I tend towards heavy before fast, I have no use for the 5.56. The 7.62x39 is an ideal caliber for many things.

I carry 10mm though, so fast and heavy.

 

[mavracer]

No - not for handgun rounds. There is NO standard handgun caliber (.44 included), that produces that kind of energy and does that sort of damage. Only rifles produce that sort of energy.

acually a 44mag will produce simalar shock a 7.62X39 and better than 5.56 with properly conctructed bullets at real 44 mag velocity.the problem is most 44 bullets are constructed for hunting therefore they don't expand as violently as they could and still consistantly penatrate 15"

ps its the software not the hardware you are the weapon the firearm is the tool

 

[Alphazulu6]

There is a median to this arguement where the weight and velocity equal the most muzzle energy delivered. But speaking purely in terms of physics, velocity is an exponential calculator to energy. Weight is only a multiplier and does not have nearly as much effect.

 

[alucard0822]

wrenches and screwdrivers

different tools for different tasks. A light 357, 7.62x25, or even 5.7FN shoot flat, and require less holdover at 50+ yards, a 45acp, 40s&w or 44sp pack more punch than smaller calibers with similar energy and expand reliably at slow speeds (more hydraulic force from a larger column of resitance). calibers like 41mAG and 10MM combine long range trajectory and large diameter at the expense of recoil, but a hit with 22lr beats a miss with 44mag anyday.

 

[taliv]

i agree about the different tasks part, but i parse them out like this:

big usually == >BC so for long range rifles, there's no question big and slow wins.

i shoot subsonics suppressed a lot, and since speed is artificially limited, again, no question very big and very slow is better

intermediate and handguns however, i subscribe to the "speed kills" philosophy and i'll take M193 over the others any day. i also shoot 200g from a 45acp in lieu of the heavier and slower 230g

 

[absolut_beethoven]

I voted for other.

IMHO I think that most blanket theories are wet

From all the extensive reading that I've done on terminal ballistics over the years, bullets tend to get the best results when velocity is matched to the bullets weight and characteristics - i.e. caliber, shape, material etc. Only results from the streets and battlefields will give one a reasonably accurate way to predict future performance.

On the other hand, a well placed bullet in the brain that supposedly doesn't have great terminal performance will obviously do a whole lot better than the world's best terminal bullet (whatever that is) that hits the perp in the foot or the hand.

 

[Piedmont Plinker]

You're title inspired me
"Jesus loves all the ammo;
All the ammo in the world.
Big and heavy;fast and light;
they are precious in His sight.
Jesus loves all the ammo in the world!"

 

[glockman19]

I voted other because it depends on what you're shooting.

 

[230RN]

Dem's da ones:

 

[rantingredneck]

My vote is if it's slow it better be heavy and if it's light it better be fast.

 

[17poundr]

10-Ring
Senior Member


Join Date: 12-25-02
Location: California
Posts: 10,015

How about 10mm and 338 lapua?

This was kind of what I was trying to get at... In a self defence cituation, I would like something that doesnt kick so much, as to get accurate shots...

Then again in longer range shooting I would like something that flies straight, and again gives me accurate shots, and the lapua338 also has the added advantage of being quite a big and hefty round too!!!

Then again, I was very suprised when I rented a 1911 Colt 45apc at my range, and got very good results from shooting standing up without any frills at a target 25 meters away (this is how everybody shoots in Helsinki Shooting Club, and most others in Finland I belive).

I only got better results from that distance with a semi auto (my best result were in the army with a fixed sight FN 9mm from 10meters, but that doesnt count now), with a SIG-226, and that was after renting it a couple of times, the .45apc Colt gave me similar results immediately, was this possibly because of the extra inch in the barrel???

Also, when I have read the amazing speeds of many AR-15 based guns, I have thought to myself (especially with the 16inch barrel guns), that ok, this gun shoots one km a second, but how fast will that bullet be going after 200 meters??? I have seen ballistic diagrams and it does seem that the magnum super loads like the lapua338, or Win300MAG ect, do seem to keep their straight line longer, and have a respecful speed to their hefty bullets...

So, I'm beat. All I know is that our Exellent RK-62s in the army (which are slighty modified Galil's in effect, and the Galil is a slightly modified AK-47 in Effect, the proof of the pudding is in that we were taught that we could take an ak-47s clip and fire away, we used sometimes Russian ammo instead of the Finnish one, and boy did it foul up our guns... And also, some of the inner parts, which were very fiew, were compatible with the AK-47, our RK's were slightly more 'tightly' fitted, so they were more accurate, but also more prone to jamming)...

My point is, that with iron sights after 300meters the gun was pretty much an area fire weapon... Now, I have heard of ww1 & ww2 rifles like the Mosin Nagant, Lee Enfield or Mauser being able to hit a target the size of a melon with the iron sights form 800 meters!

This must be because of the speed of the bullet.

And therefore I put it that the question is not so much about heavy vs light, but rather fast vs too much recoil...

Then again, if using FMJ's in combat, I would rather hit an enemy from say 50m, with a 7.62mm than a NATO 5.56 (even though I'm itching to try a gun firing this caliber)!!!

Yours truly,
Mr Poundr.

 

[fletcher]

I'd prefer slow and heavy, but it all seems to work. Just make sure you can hit what you aim at, and you're good to go.

 

[akjren]

Seems to me that when you look at numbers, most service caliber handgun rounds (.38sp, 9mm, .45, .40, etc...) are pretty slow. Between 800-1300 fps while most rifle rounds are twice or more that velocity, 1800-3000 fps depending on caliber.

With most service handgun rounds being so slow, it seems to me that large size and weight is the only feasable option for self-defence. Of course other purposes will call for other bullet sizes, weights and velocities.

Also, as has already been mentioned: being able to hit the threat in a vital area is also very important.

Alex


Edited to add: Give me big and slow to stop an attacking person, big and fast for a dangerous animal, and small and fast for headshots on zombies...

 

[Colt46]

Really depends on what you want to do

For self defence the trend seems to favor lightweight, high velocity, hollow points. Hunting of large game favors heavier bullets that will penetrate more.

Velocity is a constantly diminishing variable. Starting diameter and weight never change until it interacts with the target medium.

 

[ceetee]

For handgun defense against two-leggedy beasties, a bigger hole lets the blood leak out just that much faster. That said, if the hole isn't placed somewhere critical, the point is moot. Shoot the biggest, fastest round you can shoot well.

 

[Biker]

I like Rantingredneck's answer.

Biker

 

[mpmarty]

Why compromise? 10mm = Fast + Heavy and they are able to reach out farther with more remaining energy due to the higher bc of .40 200gr projectiles.