Ammonia and Corrosive Priming or Black Powder

[BigG]

I have read on several occasions where people say they use Windex to clean rifles fired with corrosive priming or black powder weapons. This has raised a couple of questions in my mind.

Nearly everybody knows plain water is the only solvent that will wash out the salts deposited by firing corrosive priming. Is Windex used because it is convenient and cheap in the spray bottle?

Besides a large percentage of water, Windex contains ammonia, not at a high concentration, but ammonia has corrosive properties itself and will eat steel if left in the bore. In addition it is hygroscopic, meaning it sucks moisture from the air, so if any were left in the bore it would wick humidity onto the steel.

I understand the function of using ammonia to cut copper deposits, but the amount of ammonia in Windex is not enough imho to do that.

I am coming to the conclusion that the only reason people recommend using Windex is the convenience and cheapness, although I like the price of water even better.

Please enlighten me.

Here is a paper on Ammonia

Thanks!

 

[Jim Watson]

In the first place, dilute aqua ammonia is not very corrosive to steel and gun cleaning is normally completed by drying and oiling.
In the second place, if people READ what Mike Venturino originally said about Windex in the first place, he recommended Windex with VINEGAR, not ammonia. Acetic acid is not very corrosive to steel, either, and might be considered useful to neutralize the alkaline potassium carbonate black powder residue.
I don't think either one has much effect in gun cleaning and neither will "neutralize" the potassium chloride residue of corrosive primers as is commonly said. The main advantage of Windex is that it contains some detergent to help the water penetrate fouling. Also it is convenient to specify and lets people avoid thinking about putting water down their gun barrel. That last part is probably the most important.

 

[Father Knows Best]

There's nothing wrong with putting pure water down a gun barrel. I do it all the time when cleaning my cowboy guns, because I shoot them with black powder loads. The trick is to use really, really hot water. It causes the fouling to dissolve and run right out, and the hot water heats the steel which in turns helps dry everything out quickly (though I of course run a couple of dry patches through). Nothing works better.

The reason for Windex in cleaning black powder guns (or after use of corrosive nitro ammo) is that: (1) it is mostly water, which dissolves and neutralizes the corrosize salts in the fouling; and (2) it evaporates quickly and completely. Windex is formulated to evaporate quickly and not leave a residue. For that reason, some people prefer it to straight water. I don't, as straight hot water is cheaper and just as effective for me.

 

[Firehand]

I'll add that almost every cleaning solvent intended to remove copper fouling contains ammonia because it attacks copper very well. And it won't harm the bore unless you leave something with a high concentration of it in the bore for a long time, from what I've read.

Using an ammonia-containing solvent won't damage your bore if you use it as intended.

 

[BigG]

Thank You

Aha. Jim Watson, as usual, comes up with the answer

... Mike Venturino ... recommended Windex with VINEGAR, not ammonia.

This has never been said on this forum, to my knowledge. People say "Windex" and that's it.

Vinegar I can buy as it is one of the best cleaners you will find. Wash your dirty tile or wood floors or panelling and you get all the nasty stuff off and leave it immaculate, all for pennies. Rinse with clear water. Super good advice.

Also:

... lets people avoid thinking about putting water down their gun barrel. That last part is probably the most important.

This is what I thought was driving the recommendation, also.

Thank you, guys, for all the great replies.

 

[mainmech48]

Personally, I use Windex in the cleaning process for my C&B revolvers because it works so well at removing both soot and lubricant residue. I get a lot of both, since I generally use Crisco over the ball for plinking and practice.

I started using it for initial cleaning because it gets the bulk of the caked-on stuff taken care of with a lot less scrubbing and poking than my former methods. I look at it as an adjunct to, rather than a substitute for, traditional hot water cleaning.

After the final rinse, all of my metal parts go into a 200 F. oven for a few minutes to get thoroughly dry. While they're still hot, they get doused liberally with WD-40 and allowed to cool completely. Everything gets the excess wiped off as it's reassembled, with grease or oil lubes used where needed.

Can't see where the bit of ammonia or vinegar (I use whichever flavor the last coupon was for) has done the least bit of harm. As long as I seem to get my BP stuff cleaner with less time and effort using it, I reckon that I'll keep doing it.

Never thought of trying it on my old military stuff. On the increasingly rare occasion when I'm forced to use ammo with corrosive priming I still have more than half of the gallon can of '50s vintage GI bore cleaner I bought years ago. I guess it's still potent; none of my surplus rifles have showed any tendency to rust or pit the bore and/or gas system post using it.

 

[P95Carry]

I use a formulation which is not pure water but - would still suggest for those using water only - to add a small amount of Dawn or similar - the reason being the slight detergent action helps as a wetting agent to get thru any slight surface film of grease, maybe from lube etc.

That is one reason IMO why the Windex (or even 409) is useful - water on its own can fail to cut thru enough sometimes. Main thing after dissolution of fouling products by aqueous means, is to complete cleaning normally after thoro drying - usually by heat (warmth!).

 

[Jim K]

I don't recommend using WD-40 on firearms that may be anywhere near a humid area. IME, WD-40 itself will mildew and pit the steel underneath. My advice is to use it on garage doors, and on lug nuts, but not on guns.

My preference as a penetrant and protectant is G96 Gun Treatment, which I have found free of bad effects, though it is not a good lubricant, being too thin.

Jim

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Whatever is in Windex, it doesn't seem to freeze at 32 degrees. It's still liquid at 20 degrees, and I haven't shot corrosive ammo in weather colder than that. I like to swab the bore after shooting, then again when I get home.

On the other hand, since Big G is from Dixieland, this may not be much of a concern

Regards.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Big G, well said.

The idea that ammonia "neutralizes" corrosive primer residue is an Internet canard that just won't die. In reality, ammonia does nothing of the sort. As already stated, it's the water in Windex that flushes out the salts.

That said, Windex with either vinegar or ammonia works fine to get rid of corrosive primer residue or BP fouling, and comes in a very handy container.

 

[Chuck R.]

For my BP silhouette guns I’ve now gone back to plain old water.

Started with a Paul Mathew’s mix of anti-freeze and water, to Windex with vinegar, now back to H2O.

Once in a great while IF I overheat the barrel during a relay, I’ll clean, then run a couple patches through with Gum Turpentine to get the leading out. I always ensure to oil the barrel fully afterwards.

Chuck

 

[armedandsafe]

The ammonia thought is not fully a canard. The sulpher in BP forms a lot of sulpher dioxide. This mixed with water gives h2so4, commonly known as sulpheric acid. Ammonia is a base, which neutralizes acids.

Pops

 

[Jim Watson]

Actually, the main residue from black powder is potassium carbonate, which is a mild alkali. There is not enough oxygen in the system to oxidize much of the sulfur to SO2 and even if there were any moisture, which it could only get from atmospheric humidity from the gun left to stand dirty, it would still not form sulfuric acid, only sulfurous, which is not nearly as strong. It would be neutralized by the potassium carbonate, anyhow. Most of the sulfur in black powder ends up as potassium sulfide.

 

[bakert]

There is one type of Windex with vinegar. Think that's what Mike Ventinuro the gun writer reccomends.

 

[armedandsafe]

Actually, the main residue from black powder is potassium carbonate, which is a mild alkali. There is not enough oxygen in the system to oxidize much of the sulfur to SO2 and even if there were any moisture, which it could only get from atmospheric humidity from the gun left to stand dirty, it would still not form sulfuric acid, only sulfurous, which is not nearly as strong. It would be neutralized by the potassium carbonate, anyhow. Most of the sulfur in black powder ends up as potassium sulfide.

Hmmm, when we analysed blackpowder residue back in high school, we found a goodly percentage of acids. Yes, that was many (MANY) years ago, but that is why I have always leaned toward using base products in my initial cleaning. (Such as lye soap. )

Pops

 

[mainmech48]

Mildew??? I'm having trouble with the concept that a fungus can grow in silicone, especially without some organic substrate.

I've spent the largest portion of my life to date living in the Midwest, an area not generally noted for its particularly arid climate. I've never had mildew or any other fungus in or on any of my firearms, no matter how long they were stashed away in the closet or safe.

Leather and web gear - another matter entirely. My limited experience in a truly tropical climate (fourteen months in the Mekong delta, '67 -'69) made that abundantly clear. Sheesh! You could scrub your boots and gear down with clorox solution and an old toothbrush one day and see fuzz growing on it again in less than two days. But even then I never saw it on metal that wasn't in direct contact with something fungus could eat, like cotton, wood, or leather.

I've been using WD-40 on my firearms as a surface preservative for over three decades. As long as a piece wasn't subjected to really extreme storage conditions as in a damp basement, storm celler, shed/garage, boat locker, etc. for a considerable time (eg:a couple of months) I've yet to have it fail when properly applied to clean metal. Not even RIG or cosmoline will hold up 100% if improperly applied and/or the environment is truly wretched.

All I know for sure is that even my oldest C&B (Navy Arms 1860 Colt Army c. 1979) has nary one pit on it anywhere after enough hard use that the only original finish left is where it's covered by another part. Perhaps that's not enough to say it's due to using WD-40, but it's enough to conclude that it sure couldn't have hurt much, IMO.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Sulphur dioxide plus water yields weak sulphurous acid.

You get strong sulphuric acid H2SO4 by reacting sulphur dioxide with
hydrogen peroxide.

In other words, Don't clean your guns with hair bleach.

 

[armedandsafe]

Sulphur dioxide plus water yields weak sulphurous acid.

You are correct, of course. I said it has been MANY years since HS chemistry class.

Pops