Ammunition cartel?

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upptick

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I think that as anything gets too expensive, especially a non-essential such as ammo, it gets consumed less, supply increases and prices fall. I would say that the stuff gets bought as fast as they will make it, they are walking in tall cotton right now. I look for supply to slowly return as buyers change their consumption habits but at inflated prices. The ammo marketplace will reach equilibrium and prices will be set until the next disturbance, whatever that may be. Shooting habits will change and normalize to the newly adjusted ammo reality.
PS, isn’t it strange that we never seem to complain when we cost our employers more money - again, our hypocrisy knows no bounds.
 
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I think higher prices are inevitable as long as the .gov gives out free money and forces others to increase what they pay employees.

More people to buy less goods, is where you want to be if selling at the highest price is the goal.

If the lowest position one can be employed at is $15/hr the prices of everything go up.

Remember your Grandfather telling you about the Ford he bought new for $250 and he could get a burger for $0.25. That’s because he made $0.25/hr. Now the kid taking out the trash makes $15/hr and a meal at the burger joint costs $15…
 
I see ammo in stock for long periods at all the online retailers but prices are not coming down. Manipulation seems to be in every market (gold and silver is an excrement show) so nothing would surprise me. When CEOs release common sense sounding videos explaining how hard they’re trying in these trying times, I get more suspicious. None of us know all the facts but anything is possible.
 
Somethings wrong when I can get swiss ammo cheaper than domestic. Even if it's only 9mm and 5.56.

My LGS simply doesnt drop prices until theres a full pallet of ammo in the warehouse, and full shelves in the store. We're simply not there yet.

Lowering prices too early, can really piss off the simpletons, if you are forced to raise it again. Because those morons flip out if they miss the lower price. We are our own worst enemy. It's better business to lower prices slowly instead.

Pure supply and demand.

Higher prices insure that demand slows down, so every noob has some ammo. Some stores even hide a box of ammo for each pistol in stock. Can't sell pistols without ammo. If we had communist low prices, there would be no ammo available at all. I'd buy 20,000 rounds of .45 at $14. And so would everyone else, until it's gone. Communism sucks.

But we have nothing to complain about. Defensive ammo is in full supply. If you REALLY NEED ammo, it's there.
 
I see ammo in stock for long periods at all the online retailers but prices are not coming down. Manipulation seems to be in every market (gold and silver is an excrement show) so nothing would surprise me. When CEOs release common sense sounding videos explaining how hard they’re trying in these trying times, I get more suspicious. None of us know all the facts but anything is possible.

The manipulation is way over the heads of the ammo CEO's. Ammo companies are remarkably smaller than you'd believe.

Valve, pipe, roll steel, recycling, companies are all seeing tough times for various reasons. Energy cost especially. All of which appear to roll up hill to piss poor leadership in our gov't.

Our communist scumbag overlords are purposefully wrecking everything. Oil to metal to ammo to basic textiles. They cant even react appropriately to a simple flu bug or withdraw from a extremely weak nation in an orderly fashion. They're inept morons.

I don't think Federal or Winchester is doing anything wrong, yet. They appear to be victims of a dying nation, just like the rest of us.
 
Somethings wrong when I can get swiss ammo cheaper than domestic. Even if it's only 9mm and 5.56.

My LGS simply doesnt drop prices until theres a full pallet of ammo in the warehouse, and full shelves in the store. We're simply not there yet.

Lowering prices too early, can really piss off the simpletons, if you are forced to raise it again. Because those morons flip out if they miss the lower price. We are our own worst enemy. It's better business to lower prices slowly instead.

Pure supply and demand.

Higher prices insure that demand slows down, so every noob has some ammo. Some stores even hide a box of ammo for each pistol in stock. Can't sell pistols without ammo. If we had communist low prices, there would be no ammo available at all. I'd buy 20,000 rounds of .45 at $14. And so would everyone else, until it's gone. Communism sucks.

But we have nothing to complain about. Defensive ammo is in full supply. If you REALLY NEED ammo, it's there.
If my brief stay in Havana a couple of years back taught me anything, it’s that if we had a communist system your monthly take home would probably be $14.. as would mine, his, hers and theirs.

And there would still be no food or clothes on the shelves, and certainly no ammo!

You are absolutely right; communism does suck.

Stay safe.
 
To the premise of the thread; it’s a double edged sword.

I recall posting doom and gloom comments when Cerebus, a hedge fund, bought up a bunch of gun makers and consolidated under the Cerebus banner. They had zero experience in this field, and when this occurs I’ve seen for decades how these pirates work. It’s ALL about squeezing the last dollar out of the companies they raid and then leaving the empty shells behind and moving on. I just knew these gun companies would flop over time, and they did. In these cases it’s bad.

Since Vista and Olin are long time in the ammo/gun business conglomerates this raiding style of capitalism (hopefully) won’t take effect. It’s true they bought up the competition, so I hope that they don’t play monopoly. Only time will tell.

If, and that’s if, Vista and Olin can keep the internal and external $$ pirates at bay, they should be able to weather this storm and return us to some ammo price and availability normalcy. With demand high now it will not be overnight, but it’ll eventually come back to sanity.

But if the pirates take the wheelhouse, we’re all heading for the rocks for sure.

Let’s keep our fingers crossed. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
The article linked below claims that the ammunition market is controlled by just two companies: Vista and Olin. The author's hypothesis is that there is no real competition in the ammunition market because of this duopoly, and that higher prices are inevitable. I don't know enough to know if this is nonsense or not. What do you think?

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/what-great-ammunition-shortage-says-about-inflation
That doesn't account for foreign manufacturing like Prvi and S&B but the idea that only a couple companies own the majority of production/sales domestically isn't that uncommon in a great many markets. Many of the beers we drink are owned by the same major corp. Many of the car makes we know of are all owned by the same Corp. The foodstuffs we buy are often all made or owned by a few major corporations.

That's how we've allowed our system to operate even though we're supposed to have anti-trust/anti-monoploy laws on the books.

Does that make it a cartel? Perhaps. But I will say this, manufacturing on a large scale is hard for smaller companies to maintain over the long term, especially with component shortages, without a large and (at least at first) nearly continuous investment of capital. Who can afford to do that but the major companies that already have the money?

I'm not a huge fan of monopolistic practices but in some instances I think it's best to allow those most capable of producing to do the majority of it. Having many small manufacturers might increase competition in theory but at least for ammo production all it would do is lead to more expensive micro manufacturers (like ammo microbreweries) and/or lower quality product overall due to limited access to already scarce resources.
 
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That doesn't account for foreign manufacturing like Prvi and S&B but the idea that only a couple companies own the majority of production/sales domestically isn't that uncommon in a great many markets. Many of the beers we drink are owned by the same major corp. Many of the car makes we know of are all owned by the same Corp. The foodstuffs we buy are often all made or owned by a few major corporations.

That's how we've allowed our system to operate even though we're supposed to have anti-trust/anti-monoploy laws on the books.

Does that make it a cartel? Perhaps. But I will say this, manufacturing on a large scale is hard for smaller companies to maintain over the long term, especially with component shortages, without a large and (at least at first) nearly continuous investment of capital. Who can afford to do that but the major companies that already have the money?

I'm not a huge fan of monopolistic practices but in some instances I think it's best to allow those most capable of producing to do the majority of it. Having many small manufacturers might increase competition in theory but at least for ammo production all it would do is lead to more expensive micro manufacturers (like ammo microbreweries) and/or lower quality product overall due to limited access to already scarce resources.

Problem comes when one company has it all and can control quality across the board. It also is vulnerable to some NWO group to buy it all up and sink the industry. I dont know what the solution is in times like these. I tend to just order from freedom munitions.

BTW Mister Daniel Craig...your last movie sucked. You should be ashamed of yourself. Worst Bond ever.... ugly as well.
 
A huge amount of your powder is on cargo ships anchored in the harbor waiting for long shore man and teamsters to get busy. But they have to take it real easy, work slow and get that overtime money. Nobody tells those unions to work harder not even the POTUS
 
I think higher prices are inevitable as long as the .gov gives out free money and forces others to increase what they pay employees.

More people to buy less goods, is where you want to be if selling at the highest price is the goal.

If the lowest position one can be employed at is $15/hr the prices of everything go up.

Remember your Grandfather telling you about the Ford he bought new for $250 and he could get a burger for $0.25. That’s because he made $0.25/hr. Now the kid taking out the trash makes $15/hr and a meal at the burger joint costs $15…

I remember a Macdonald TV ad in the 1970’s where a guy buys a burger, fries, and a drink, and gets change back from his dollar. LOL!
 
I didn't read the article but I believe it is. Other than some foreign imports but they have put a halt on Russian stuff. Same as primers and powder,
Same as food products, big companies control it all. Say just Corn. The family owned farms are gone.

It's just like fuel. Once it gets jacked up it's not going to go down to what it was. If it is $4 a gal now and goes to $3.75 people get all excited,
 
I remember a Macdonald TV ad in the 1970’s where a guy buys a burger, fries, and a drink, and gets change back from his dollar. LOL!

yeah... back when money had real value and food was actually food. Those days are long gone. Bugs wont even eat MacDonalds anymore.
 
I didn't read the article but I believe it is. Other than some foreign imports but they have put a halt on Russian stuff. Same as primers and powder,
Same as food products, big companies control it all. Say just Corn. The family owned farms are gone.

It's just like fuel. Once it gets jacked up it's not going to go down to what it was. If it is $4 a gal now and goes to $3.75 people get all excited,


It was jacked up to $3.75 and came back to $1.79.
We weren't at the mercy of foreign supplies. US production created a surplus, jobs were plentiful and the economy was booming.

The prices COULD come back. The stupidity of raising minimum wage and devaluing the $$$, is what what will prevent prices returning.
 
I remember a Macdonald TV ad in the 1970’s where a guy buys a burger, fries, and a drink, and gets change back from his dollar. LOL!
Yes, I lived that and then went into the USAF at age 21. I worked at a service station at the time pumping gas, fixing flats and light repairs. I made $2.40 per hour and was glad (and lucky) to have the job. As I recall, gas was $0.69 per gallon (+/-). When we could get it. (1974 -1976) Base pay for an Airman E1 in 1976 was $361.20 per month when I joined up. Or about $2.08 per hour for a 40 hour week. (Did any enlisted guy ever work a 40 hour week in the military?)
 
BTW Mister Daniel Craig...your last movie sucked. You should be ashamed of yourself. Worst Bond ever.... ugly as well.

Ouch!

But anyway... While I do agree with you manufacturing is one of those things that takes a lot of money to get started. Very few organizations are going to have that kind of money. Furthermore with component shortages everything is more expensive so if other companies did want to get started or small companies wanted to keep going it might end up being too cost prohibitive for them so if one of the larger groups like Vista offers them a bunch of money to buy their company they probably end up taking it.

I would certainly be annoyed if all the ammo is manufactured by one company only. But there are the two that you mentioned and the two that I mentioned at the very least. None of them are going out of business anytime soon, I'm giving away the market is right now I doubt any one of them is going to be able to purchase the other or even want to offer to be bought.
 
Reading the earnings call transcript, it is pretty clear what Vista's strategy is. They're concerned with maximizing value for shareholders, not solving the industries' supply and demand problems. They clearly appreciate the position they're in with the current supply and demand scenario. I don't think you would get any interest from (any) justice dept on antitrust action for this little market niche that affects practically nobody - in political terms. From Vista's perspective, consolidation enables them to actually be profitable and persist.

Supply chain issues - and COVID - is what every company says in relation to whatever prevents them from hitting their targets now. Vista isn't limited by inputs so much as production capacity, which they've been reluctant to increase meaningfully. But if any one of us were running that company, we'd have been reluctant to expand too much in 2020/2021. Supply chain issues -like copper - would have been just one indicator saying this is bad time to build or expand. Everything has been harder to get done, more expensive.

It does appear that they're investing in equipment or tooling to increase efficiency and flexibility but that'll likely just make the work flow better. If anything it might make them more resilient to labor crunches related to Omicron or whatever is next on the horizon. It will allow them to switch product lines more quickly. That's good news. The feast or famine program blows.

Prices won't be going down any time soon. Vista said on their earnings call that the market will support current pricing levels for the foreseeable future. Lots of good news for Vista shareholders. It is only logical that prices increase over time, but hopefully we'll see some relief as inflation and supply chain issues subside. I think we'll see rebates or sales at some point, rather than reduce prices. As someone previously noted, whipsawing prices is not going to improve their profitability. They won't be lowering prices in 2022. Not as long as current issues persist and the 12 million new shooters added to the market are looking to feed their new firearms. The next decade is going to be right interesting in this market.

Here's a good excerpt:

And as we've talked previously, because of some of the consolidation we've done with Remington, even if you look long term, we don't see the same type of price compression the industry may have experienced in previous times. In terms of the ammo backlog, our ammo backlog continues to be at an all-time level. And if you look at the consumption data and if you look at some of the other industries that are out there, it suggests that demand continues to be very, very strong, and that's evidenced in our backlog. In terms of the channels, backlog is still minimal. And I will say that if you do retail checks and you look at the inventory on the shelves, what's remarkable is they're carrying significantly less inventory. And inventory they're carrying is honestly multiple facings in a lot of the same calibers. And we know that the other calibers are in demand, but just can't be produced yet. That's the rationale behind some of the machinery and equipment we're purchasing now to expand our capacity to really give our ammunition factories the flexibility to be able to meet a broad set of demand within the calibers. And a lot of this is being driven by the increases in hunting, which is at its highest level since 1958. And a lot of it is being driven by the growth in [new sports] and a lot of the other shooting sports activities.
-Christopher T. Metz - Vista Outdoor Inc. - CEO & Director
 
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