Ammunition cartel?

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daniel craig said:
That doesn't account for foreign manufacturing like Prvi and S&B but the idea that only a couple companies own the majority of production/sales domestically isn't that uncommon in a great many markets. Many of the beers we drink are owned by the same major corp. Many of the car makes we know of are all owned by the same Corp. The foodstuffs we buy are often all made or owned by a few major corporations.

That's how we've allowed our system to operate even though we're supposed to have anti-trust/anti-monoploy laws on the books.

Does that make it a cartel? Perhaps. But I will say this, manufacturing on a large scale is hard for smaller companies to maintain over the long term, especially with component shortages, without a large and (at least at first) nearly continuous investment of capital. Who can afford to do that but the major companies that already have the money?

I'm not a huge fan of monopolistic practices but in some instances I think it's best to allow those most capable of producing to do the majority of it. Having many small manufacturers might increase competition in theory but at least for ammo production all it would do is lead to more expensive micro manufacturers (like ammo microbreweries) and/or lower quality product overall due to limited access to already scarce resources.
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This seems to be especially true for companies that the DoD depends on for supply.
 
Vista and Olin in a cartel would be AG Garland’s dream. Nuke the ammo industry…in effect killing the 2nd Amendment…

supply and demand, simple economics….
 
When I looked at all of the companies owned by Vista Outdoors and then the VSTO stock I got excited until I saw that they don't pay a dividend. I don't buy stock in companies that don't pay me for loaning them my money so they are certainly not managing things to reward their stockholders.
 
While the article is interesting, the author has some stuff I question.

Vista VP Jason V’s comment about “not getting ahead of their ski’s” (over produce) is a valid economics point. We consumers love when the market is saturated with supply and we buy below cost, but that drives companies to cut production, lay off employees, and closet plants. It’s a balancing act (in a free market without gov or COVID impacts).

I believe we should all thank Vista for buying Remington and bringing back the capacity and supply. It has helped in many ways, from employees to announce supply to GDP.
 
jmorris said:
I think higher prices are inevitable as long as the .gov gives out free money and forces others to increase what they pay employee. If the lowest position one can be employed at is $15/hr the prices of everything go up.
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While I agree with this to a certain extent, it has nuttin' to do with the ammo shortage/price increases we are seeing right now. Comes down to demand and what many folks are willing to pay. Local hardware store puts out ammo or reloading components and they are gone......regardless of price, and not because of the folks making $15 a hour. Those making $15 do not have the disposable income to spend on over priced ammo. The problem right now, on top of the disruption of the supply chain, is us........and human greed. Add internet forums telling folks to buy whatever they can for whatever it costs. Can't go on living unless you have 20,000 primers on the shelf. 'ell, that's only about 6 months worth of ammo. See three bricks of .22 on the shelf at Tractor Supply....better buy it quick even tho you haven't shot your .22 for a decade. Gotta have 1500 rounds just in case you do. The stimulus checks were suppose to stimulate the economy and help those whose had lost all or some of their livelihood because of the pandemic. It did exactly what it was intended to do. Those that didn't have bills to be paid, spent it on fun stuff. Many of those folks was us. We bought guns and ammo. We drove up the demand and we drove up the prices...not the government, not the ammo companies and not those getting $15 a hour. Look what happened to gas prices when everyone quit driving because of the pandemic. Bottom fell out of gas prices and crude oil. Quit buying guns and ammo like there's no tomorrow and I wonder what will happen to their prices....and supply. We want our stock portfolios to gain big time, but that don't happen unless companies make big profits. It's the cake and eating it thingy.
 
buck460XVR said:
The stimulus checks were suppose to stimulate the economy and help those whose had lost all or some of their livelihood because of the pandemic. It did exactly what it was intended to do. Those that didn't have bills to be paid, spent it on fun stuff. Many of those folks was us. We bought guns and ammo. We drove up the demand and we drove up the prices...not the government
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Sure would have been nice to get some of my money back to blow on fun toy. I recognize the .gov didn’t make the money but apparently it did take more from me than it needed and decided that instead of spending it on things that it should have or just put it towards the debt they have sunk this Country into, they would give it to others to suck up the limited supply they also had a quite large role in creating.

I guess I am just jealous. Would have been nice sitting at home deciding how I was going to spend other peoples money instead of working full time…
 
upptick said:
The article linked below claims that the ammunition market is controlled by just two companies: Vista and Olin. The author's hypothesis is that there is no real competition in the ammunition market because of this duopoly, and that higher prices are inevitable. I don't know enough to know if this is nonsense or not. What do you think?

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/what-great-ammunition-shortage-says-about-inflation
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What I think...the vast majority of my ammo is foreign. Has been for a long time. S&B, PPU, Fiocchi, Geco, Norma, etc.
 
I remember a Macdonald TV ad in the 1970’s where a guy buys a burger, fries, and a drink, and gets change back from his dollar. LOL!
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McDonalds "Quarterback" special. It ran during football season. A regular hamburger, fries and drink and you got a "quarter back" in change from $1.

I'd say prices right now on most things are a market adjustment. If you compare wages earned over time, and the amount of time required to work to earn money to buy consumer goods things eventually even out. In 1975 I paid $175 for my 1st centerfire bolt action rifle. Today a comparable rifle is about $900. About 5X as much. But I'm making a lot more than 5X as much money in 2022 than I was making in 1975 as a high school kid with a part time job. So, the relative cost for me is MUCH less.

But a 17 year old high school kid today would have to work basically the same number of hours at a part time job to afford a $900 rifle today as I worked in 1975 to buy a $175 rifle.

In recent years gun and ammo prices have been kept artificially lower than they should have been in relation to increases in wages. Relative to income the last 15-20 years have been the best times to buy guns and ammo probably ever. We've been able to get a lot for the amount of time worked.

But the recent demand along with shortages have also artificially raised them higher than they should for now. Prices will eventually moderate to match income levels. But it is unrealistic to expect prices to go back to where they were.
 
upptick said:
The article linked below claims that the ammunition market is controlled by just two companies: Vista and Olin. The author's hypothesis is that there is no real competition in the ammunition market because of this duopoly, and that higher prices are inevitable. I don't know enough to know if this is nonsense or not. What do you think?

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/what-great-ammunition-shortage-says-about-inflation
Click to expand...

There are many more ammunition manufacturers than just those two. S&B, Hornady, Fiochi come to mind for consumer ammunition. It also assumes that there is no competition between Vista and Olin, but we know that each has multiple brands under their umbrella and that those brands compete. It also ignores the huge jump in new firearms purchases and the resultant panic buying. Supply...Demand has driven prices up, not lack of competition.
 
jmorris said:
Sure would have been nice to get some of my money back to blow on fun toy. I recognize the .gov didn’t make the money but apparently it did take more from me than it needed and decided that instead of spending it on things that it should have or just put it towards the debt they have sunk this Country into, they would give it to others to suck up the limited supply they also had a quite large role in creating.
Click to expand...

The only contribution our Government had in this current(and all of the previous ones) ammo shortage is the restrictions placed on imported Russian ammo. This didn't even take place till last September, which was already more than a year into the current shortage. This will affect about 20% of the ammo that used to be available for sale in the U.S. for a minimum of 12 months. As I tried to point out in my previous post....the blame lies on us, the American Public. In 2020 alone, 8.5 million people bought a gun(or multiple guns) for the first time in their life. If they were lucky enough to find ammo and bought just 2 boxes of factory ammo, that would be 17 million boxes of ammo off the shelves that would have been left otherwise.....and then there are the hoarders and the Bannic buyers, on top of those of us who would like no more than we used to shoot. Again, the stimulus did what it was supposed to do...stimulate folks into buying American made products to get Americans back to work. Problem is, we don't have enough folks that want to work. This is why I have no problem paying folks a living wage. If folks get up and go to work 5 days a week, contribute positively to the American economy and culture, they should be able to afford to live above what is considered the "poverty level".....period. They should have health insurance for them and their family. If they do this for a substantial portion of their life, they should be able to retire at a reasonable age without the fear of loosing their home, if for chance they get sick. If there are legitimate reasons they can't work, then I have no problem with them receiving benefits that will reasonably support them. It's folks that live off the "system" I have issues with.....and it's just not those receiving welfare. It's those folks with more money than they know what to do with, that pay nuttin' in taxes. IMHO, that's just another form of "welfare".

jmorris said:
I guess I am just jealous. Would have been nice sitting at home deciding how I was going to spend other peoples money instead of working full time…
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Oh, I'm with you brother on that. At 68 years f age, I still work full time, even tho I don't have to. Will have worked another 10 hours of OT come next paycheck. I have worked full time since I was 13 years old, back in the day when there was no restrictions on how much a school age child could work. Coming from a poor family, if I wanted new clothes and a car to drive when I turned 16, I had to find the monies myself. It was that way for most of us back then. Not anymore. I was lucky enough to afford a $500 car to drive to school so I could leave early to go to work to pay for it. drive by the High School parking lot today and you see nuttin' but $30,000 cars and $50,000 trucks/Jeeps and SUVs. None of which the students driving them paid a nickle for. They walk from their car to the school with a $1300 phone in the back pocket of their $120 jeans(with holes in both knees) and complain because mom wouldn't give them monies to get take out from the Chinese restaurant today....and God forbid they have to eat the "free" hot lunch(yes, hot lunch and breakfast is free to every student in the U.S.). Instead of taking the free lunch and filling their water bottle at the bubbler, they use the debit card dad gave them to buy a bag of $2 chips and a $2 bottle of water at the vending machine in the Commons. They can't work after school and on weekends because they have sports, don't you know. They have no work ethics or any appreciable value of money. This is the workforce we are looking at for the future. Good luck to them.
 
"Relative to income the last 15-20 years have been the best times to buy guns and ammo probably ever. We've been able to get a lot for the amount of time worked."

Yes and No

Compare 870 then to an 870 now. With the perfecting of investment casting, the 870 EXPRESS is half the price.

A Winchester is comparable. Marlin 336 is comparable.

Yes, there are some bargains out there.
There are also, those bins of $8 mil-surps, not the same bargains, today. SKS for $40, pre-stupid @ $500 and post-stupid $900.

Don't even mention the Colt Snake guns.

What Clint would call, "They Good, They Had, and the UUUUUUUGLY."
 
Seedy Character said:
Yes, there are some bargains out there.
There are also, those bins of $8 mil-surps, not the same bargains, today. SKS for $40, pre-stupid @ $500 and post-stupid $900.
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On those lines, I can't imagine the frustrations of whoever imported that wave of Star BM's. I got 2, one for $200, the other for $150.

You and I know they're surplus, with brittle firing pins that don't like to be dry fired. Many of the new buyers would have seen a small, handy 9mm that 'looks' like a 1911 (still probably the most visually recognizable pistol in the world). They missed Covid by what, a year or 2? It would have doubled their profit margins, I'm sure.
 
buck460XVR said:
The only contribution our Government had in this current(and all of the previous ones) ammo shortage is the restrictions placed on imported Russian ammo. This didn't even take place till last September, which was already more than a year into the current shortage. This will affect about 20% of the ammo that used to be available for sale in the U.S. for a minimum of 12 months. As I tried to point out in my previous post....the blame lies on us, the American Public. In 2020 alone, 8.5 million people bought a gun(or multiple guns) for the first time in their life. If they were lucky enough to find ammo and bought just 2 boxes of factory ammo, that would be 17 million boxes of ammo off the shelves that would have been left otherwise.....and then there are the hoarders and the Bannic buyers, on top of those of us who would like no more than we used to shoot. Again, the stimulus did what it was supposed to do...stimulate folks into buying American made products to get Americans back to work. Problem is, we don't have enough folks that want to work. This is why I have no problem paying folks a living wage. If folks get up and go to work 5 days a week, contribute positively to the American economy and culture, they should be able to afford to live above what is considered the "poverty level".....period. They should have health insurance for them and their family. If they do this for a substantial portion of their life, they should be able to retire at a reasonable age without the fear of loosing their home, if for chance they get sick. If there are legitimate reasons they can't work, then I have no problem with them receiving benefits that will reasonably support them. It's folks that live off the "system" I have issues with.....and it's just not those receiving welfare. It's those folks with more money than they know what to do with, that pay nuttin' in taxes. IMHO, that's just another form of "welfare".



Oh, I'm with you brother on that. At 68 years f age, I still work full time, even tho I don't have to. Will have worked another 10 hours of OT come next paycheck. I have worked full time since I was 13 years old, back in the day when there was no restrictions on how much a school age child could work. Coming from a poor family, if I wanted new clothes and a car to drive when I turned 16, I had to find the monies myself. It was that way for most of us back then. Not anymore. I was lucky enough to afford a $500 car to drive to school so I could leave early to go to work to pay for it. drive by the High School parking lot today and you see nuttin' but $30,000 cars and $50,000 trucks/Jeeps and SUVs. None of which the students driving them paid a nickle for. They walk from their car to the school with a $1300 phone in the back pocket of their $120 jeans(with holes in both knees) and complain because mom wouldn't give them monies to get take out from the Chinese restaurant today....and God forbid they have to eat the "free" hot lunch(yes, hot lunch and breakfast is free to every student in the U.S.). Instead of taking the free lunch and filling their water bottle at the bubbler, they use the debit card dad gave them to buy a bag of $2 chips and a $2 bottle of water at the vending machine in the Commons. They can't work after school and on weekends because they have sports, don't you know. They have no work ethics or any appreciable value of money. This is the workforce we are looking at for the future. Good luck to them.
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Good God. Gimme a break....
 
My stored “ Cartel” is the result of following advice, stated hundreds of time (on that thing called the Internet), gradually buying an extra case of ammo from October 2008, always between panics.

About the fraction from Russia..
What ….”ban…on Russian ammo ”?
When did the State Dept. clarify their original, somewhat vague comments?

Current ammo import contracts are first Due for renewal at o_ODifferent times in 2022, or 2023.

We don’t yet know how the State Department will specifically rule on this, unless they have stated their Intentions in clear, less “legal” terms.

​
 
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Do any of you know if the Fed's are still buying massive quantities of ammunition as they did under President Obama? I remember that almost every branch had placed huge orders, which I felt led to the shortages on the shelves in those days.
 
There’s ammo available, don’t like cost don’t buy.

Firearms aren’t useable without ammo

The days of buying cheap and stacking deep are over

I don’t disagree with OP article but there’s also an article there about how the move to “Go Green” will take about all the copper and nickel the world has so the whole ammo’s too expensive complaint will be a moot point.
 
Steve S. said:
PS, isn’t it strange that we never seem to complain when we cost our employers more money - again, our hypocrisy knows no bounds.
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Agreed and it's not human nature ... many are taught to be hypocrites at very young ages these days. It snuck up on us over time.

Then again, our species in general, humankind is very self destructive ... an enigma. We were, we got here, because of our Darwinian survival tendencies, intelligent design and our belief in a higher being ... and now we're so self destructive that it is inevitable that we'll reset ourselves ... or either mother nature will and shall.

It is truly mind blowing if one stops and thinks about it. In the meantime yeah, ammo in many ways is the new precious metal ... a commodity. Perhaps it always has been, ammo and arrows and spears and steel and iron and bronze and rocks and so-on ... it's all part of our nature. Our games and our tools have always been prey driven ... until now. Ammo is the antithesis of big tech. Think about it.

Supply for some items may pick up soon but prices will not drop much. Component prices are where the problems lay, not so ,uch the ammo manufacturers themselves although they do control their fair shares (the two mentioned in the article) of the components. Nosomuch the powder and projectiles but defiinetly the primers and brass.

Primers will continue to be the biggies shortages for some time to come. Matter of fact that entire column was built around the warning letter from the Vista CEO sent out recently.
 
Vista said several years ago, they saw the need to expand due to expanding shortages of ammo. They also said it would take 3 or more years to build a building, several more to buy and install ammo production and then more time to properly train the people to operate the equipment. Vista said they were afraid that by the time they got going full force, the shortages would be over. And then what were they going to do with all the extra equipment and bills to pay. They bought Remington because there is a building, equipment and some 400 people that knew the operation. Vista did rehire some 300 more people that had been layed off. And they didn't come cheap, because starting wages had almost doubled by then. The plant had to be updated. Vista said they had a $billion in back orders at the time when they told the public they were not accepting any more primer orders.
Remington, in 2012, employed almost 1200 people. They had over 4 years of inventory and were making more all the time because of new product demands. But, they were losing lawsuits along with large borrowed interest rates and needed money. They did some very stupid marketing programs. I was told by a distributor, Remington was trying to force them to buy large quantities of sports wear in order to get guns and ammo; like 5 years worth. Remington sale's people were thrown out and told don't let the door hit them in the a** on the way out. Now I remember box stores selling Rem. .30 cal. ammo at $17 a box when Hornady was selling at $25. If you bought more than 2 boxes there was also mail-in rebate. I remembered buying Rem. jackets and gloves at K-mart at greatly reduced prices before the deer season. Now my friends "in the business" say due to raw material shortages, delays in shipping into and out of mfr. plants has raised their "inflation" rate to just over 18% wholesale. And they are afraid to lay people off, because they may not get them back. "AND NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY."
 
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