Ammunition safety in fires

[scottbirge]

Hello,

Fireman Scott here from Naples. Does anyone have any information on ammunition safety related to fires. More specifically the hazards that are posed. What happens to munitions of the small caliber variety when exposed to fire?

A recent fire that was reported on a national fire department forum reported a firefighter was "shot" in the abdomine while fighting a house fire where ammunition was exposed to the fire. So does anyone know of any studies or other information sources for similar information? Thanks for any help you are able to provide.

Stay safe.

 

[Sistema1927]

While injury is theoretically possible, most smokeless ammo will "cook off" and rupture the cartridge case, with no expulsion of the bullet, but with the possibility of small shrapnel from the case material.

Black powder is an explosive, and is a completely different story.

 

[Cannonball888]

A recent fire that was reported on a national fire department forum reported a firefighter was "shot" in the abdomine

That's BS. You can't be shot without a chamber and barrel. In a fire the casing explodes into sharp fragments and the heavier bullet may roll a few feet but not like being forced through a barrel under extreme pressure.

 

[Soybomb]

Most people say that ammo that is unchambered is completely safe. Our own hotpig on this forum has told me that he's seen ammo pierce ammo cans in fires before so I'm not entirely sure where the truth lies. I imagine loose ammo is pretty safe and perhaps the building pressure of ammo going off in an ammo can makes it easier for the low energy of the cooking off rounds to pierce the ammo can.

 

[230RN]

BS P > 0.95 unless he was shot by a loaded gun "cooking off" in a fire.

Cf. "Hatcher's Notebook," pp 519-548, Chapter XXI "Explosions and powder fires," especially pp 533 ff in the section entitled "Newspaper accounts often misleading," where a number of these stories are debunked and some actual experiments on the dangers of cartridges, primers, cans of powder, etc. in fires are performed and described.

I'd like to see a citation on the information the OP mentions.

Neither Fire Departments, nor the police, nor the press, nor elected officials, are above exaggerating these claims for whatever nefarious purposes they may have and are very fond of mongering misinformation on this subject.

Gr.

 

[edrice]

I had a brilliant cousin, who when we were kids, thought it would be a funny joke to toss a .22 LR cartridge into a campfire we were all standing around. I have a small scar on the web of my right thumb where something hit me when it went off. Never figured out what it was.

Ed

 

[Eric F]

That's BS.

Great tell that to the firefighter! He's the one that had the bullet pulled out of his guts. Things happen for what ever reason. The Titanic wasn't suposed to sink right?

It is unlikely that sever injury could happen but there is always the chance something unusual can happen.

 

[scottbirge]

Thanks to all that have replied so far. I too am of the opinion that the rounds need to be chambered in order to project. I am only following the direction of my Chief who instructed me to get what ever information I can. The report of the injured firefighter does not detail the incident, or what exactly penetrated his gear and stomach. For all I know it could have been something other than the ammunition that "blew up" causing fragments or schrapnal to go flying.

 

[lucky_fool]

As if you guys don't have enough to worry about. Hope he makes a good recovery.

The chance of an unchambered round piercing his turnout gear is pretty small. That said, there's a decent chance if ammo was present there was also a loaded gun. Loaded gun + fire = round going somewhere fast. I don't doubt the story happened, I just think it probably wasn't loose ammo.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Thanks to all that have replied so far. I too am of the opinion that the rounds need to be chambered in order to project. I am only following the direction of my Chief who instructed me to get what ever information I can. The report of the injured firefighter does not detail the incident, or what exactly penetrated his gear and stomach. For all I know it could have been something other than the ammunition that "blew up" causing fragments or schrapnal to go flying.

Without details it is hard to say exactly.

Two likely possibilities:

If he was actually shot by a bullet (not exploding case) then likely the round came from a loaded gun.
Ammo cooking off in a chamber will project the round almost identically to ammo being struck by firing pin.
Weapons like M60 are dangerous for this reason. If the chamber (from extended rapid fire) becomes hot enough to cook off one round it will result in a continuous cycle. The weapon can run on full auto until it runs out of ammo. The immediate reaction drill to uncontrolled gun is to rotate the belt 90 deg to force a jam.

Unsupported ammo will not propel the projectile with enough force. The case (brass) of a cartridge is not strong enough to support the pressure from burning powder. Sometimes if pressure builds up rapidly it can burst the cartridge throwing shrapnel. Now if this happens it could easily be confused by media as being shot by a bullet.

If the owner follows two rules the likelihood of anyone being injured from ammo in a fire is low:
1) Keep ammo out of the chamber of weapons that are not needed immediately (i.e no SD weapons). At most this means 1-3 live rounds in entire house.
2) Keep bulk ammo secured in metal container. The contained will contain the majority of any shrapnel caused by the exploding brass.

 

[RancidSumo]

I have another question to tack on, what about ammo in a magazine?

 

[scottbirge]

A gun stored with the ammo would make more since....

 

[brickeyee]

Great tell that to the firefighter! He's the one that had the bullet pulled out of his guts.

The only way a bullet can develop enough speed is from cooking off in a chamber.
The brass shell will burst, and can throw pieces with enough speed to enter skin.
The entry is helped since the torn edges are often very sharp.
The pieces of brass are very light though, and will not penetrate gloves or normal turn out gear.

A gun with a round in the chamber can cook off and it will be exactly the same as firing the weapon.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Great tell that to the firefighter! He's the one that had the bullet pulled out of his guts. Things happen for what ever reason. The Titanic wasn't suposed to sink right?

There is a good chance he was shot from a loaded gun having a round cook off. That's entirely possible.

 

[230RN]

I too am of the opinion that the rounds need to be chambered in order to project. I am only following the direction of my Chief who instructed me to get what ever information I can.

Hie thyself down to the library and obtain, or buy, a copy of Hatcher's Notebook, as cited above. (Stackpole Books, Library of Congress number 62-12654. I don't have the latest doohicky style of book number for it.)

There is a wealth of real information in that book on this stuff (including firing firing high-powered bullets into cases of various kinds of ammo, full cans of various powders, thousands of primers in a fire, etc.)

It really, in my opinion, ought to be on every command firefighter's desk.

Seriously, if he wants a lot of the straight skinny on the subject, there's the place to go. And some of the incidents reparted in it are kind of funny, too.

I imagine SAAMI (Society of Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Something[?]) has a lot of info on this, too.

This is not necessarily the straight skinny, but I understand that it is possible for a closed ammo can to be fairly dangerous in a fire if the lid is closed, but from general fragmentation from the explosion, not necessarily from the bullets in the cases being ejected forcefully.

You will note in my above remarks that I did not discount the possibility of a round chambered in a loaded firearm cooking off.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

"American Rifleman" had a good piece about this subject perhaps 10 or 15 years ago. I found no archive for this on the NRA website but perhaps someone with access to back issues might post the relevant points from the article.

 

[edrice]

Since this subject was brought up, I store quite a bit of ammo in a Browning safe that's rated at 1200 degrees for 45 minutes, but I've wondered how high the temp would need to get to set any ammo off. And if so, would it just end up destroying the contents that the safe was meant to protect in the first place.

Any input? Is storing ammo in the safe a good idea?

Ed

 

[230RN]

"Any input? Is storing ammo in the safe a good idea?"

Sure.

And if you consider the amount of energy in the small amount of ammo you can store in a safe, it would probably barely hiss in releasing the small amount of pressure as you opened the door.

Would stink like heck, though.

 

[scottbirge]

Thanks guys!!

 

[rcmodel]

Here are photo's of some testing I did to answer the same question in my mind.

Rounds were placed inside a loose 1" aluminum thin-wall tube for guidance, and set off into galvanized furnace duct sheet-metal.

Test set-up:


Impact, side one: (The aluminum Blaser .357 case head completely penetrated the sheet-metal)


Impact, side two:


Recovered rounds:


Note: The thin-wall aluminum guidance tube was not even dented.
Ammo loaded in magazines would almost certainly be fully contained inside the mags.

In no case did any of the bullets have enough velocity or energy to hurt you.
The other components are a whole different story!

Primers & rim-fire cases are most dangerous, followed by pistol round case fragments.

I think you would be in much more danger from exploding aerosol cans, paint thinner, lawn mower gas, and gas-grill propane tanks in the garage.

Only a round actually chambered in a firearm would have enough velocity to hurt you when wearing FD bunker gear.
It will have the full power of the firearm, just as if it had been fired normally. That's why it's not wise to store loaded fireams leaned in a corner, or a drawer pointed at chest level!!

IMHO: All ammo should be stored in GI steel ammo cans.
They will 100% contain ammo fragments in a house fire, while safely releasing the pressure.
That's what they are designed to do!

rcmodel

 

[everallm]

General principles when I was with HM Armed Forces

Scenario

Loose ammunition that is not restrained in a barrel can cook off, rupture the case and potentially spray a small amount of low velocity brass.

Risk

Close to face when it occurs is the worse situation, firefighters with BA should have no issues. Possible scratching or shallow grazing to the skin if the case rupture is close to bare flesh.
This applies to loaded magazines

Scenario

Ammunition, chambered in a barrel or otherwise constrained can act the same as a "normal" firing

Risk

Same as any AD or ND, could be fatal or potentially life threatening injury. Any firearm in a fire should be treated as if loaded and kept stowed following the 4 rules principles if possible. If not, sandbag until the area can be doused or cooled.


Scenario

Reloading powder, NOT black powder in original containers in house fire


Risk

The powder will ignite, burst the container, burn vigorously and can act as an accelerant, can be treated as any other solid fuel accelerant

Scenario

Reloading powder decanted to rigid metal or rigid thermoset plastic container OR black powder in any container

Risk

The powder, if constrained, can active as deflagrant or low power explosive and should be treated as such an LP explosive.


Scenario

Loose primers in any storage form in a house fire

Risk

Treat all primers as a LP explosive, sandbag or otherwise cover, explosion is likely and in bulk can be life threatening if in close vicinity.

All the above if stored in a good quality fire proof safe should be constrained if they ignite/explode and not pose a threat to life or limb

 

[divemedic]

To the OP- I would read the NIOSH report when it comes out. You should be able to get a copy from them, or from the National Fire Academy.

The NIOSH report is always comprehensive.

ETA: I went to firefighterclosecalls.com and to the NIOSH site, and could not find one corroborating report.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

If they are loose rounds in a box, or in a mag, they are harmless. But if you store your weapons with one in the chamber and that gets cooked, it will be just like firing the weapon and plenty dangerous.

 

[Eric F]

To the OP- I would read the NIOSH report when it comes out. You should be able to get a copy from them, or from the National Fire Academy.

The NIOSH report is always comprehensive.

Agreed, These have been very helpful for others to learn from.

 

[physics]

What about if a loose bullet cooks off while seated up against something? Say the inside of an ammo can?

You could then say that the casing mass would be the casing + the ammo can (or something like that), while the bullet mass is still just the bullet.

Thus, when the round cooks off, the casing remains more at rest, having more inertia, and the bullet flies off at a less than normal velocity (obviously the can + casing would not remain as much at rest as in the chamber of a gun).

Make sense?