Amsec vs. ?? RSC's Question

[Marvin Gardens]

Hello.

I hate to beat a dead horse but I was hoping someone could clear up a question or three for me. I am looking for a gun safe (RSC), this one will actually be in the house (den).

I understand no safe will keep a skilled and determined intruder out if he is given ample time to break into the safe. I am hoping to keep out the local meth heads and provide fire protection should the house go up in flames.

I have been reading the posts here and elsewhere. I spent the day looking at safes (Amsec, Browning, Liberty, National Security) and talking to salesmen. I have not had the opportunity to look at a Fort Knox. I own one RSC already, it is a Sturdy Safe Company Minuteman series...3/16" body, 3/8" door, 10 Gauge liner and two inches of ceramic fire liner. I've owned this safe for ten years and have had absolutely no problems with it. I have talked to Terry on many occasions and he presents a great argument for his safes being top drawer with superior fire protection.

www.sturdysafe.com

I like Sturdy models very much and mine has provided great service in my shop but...they do look kind of "industrial".

I'm putting one in the house and the better half wants me to get something a little more "refined in appearance".

I like the size of the 48" x 60" Browning Gold but the thinness of the body concerns me.

Liberty Presidential and National Security Magnum's have 3/16" bodies but apparently no liner. Are they drywall covered with fabric inside?

The AMSEC "BF" Series has what appears to be cement between two liners and would seem to offer the best fire protection. AMSEC describes their units as having a two inch body thickness but that thickness appears to be two inches of cement between two sheets of ten gauge metal.

From some of the opinions written on this site, I was leaning towards the AMSEC. My concern however is the body thickness. I am no engineer or safe technician but I am thinking it would be pretty simple to chop through the ten gauge with a fire axe and that the cement wouldn't be much of an obstacle either.

The more I look, the more confused I get. Can one of you experts help a neophite out?

Thanks,

Marvin

 

[a1abdj]

I have been reading the posts here and elsewhere. I spent the day looking at safes (Amsec, Browning, Liberty, National Security) and talking to salesmen.

Were these salesmen employed at a safe company or at a business that just happens to sell safes? If you weren't speaking to somebody in the locksmithing business, it's hard to say if what you've heard if even close to accurate.

Did the Liberty dealership happen to have a safe on display that had "been involved in an actual burglary"?

I have not had the opportunity to look at a Fort Knox.

I sell AMSEC and Fort Knox in addition to a few other manufacturers that you haven't mentioned. I also handle all of the delivery work for the local Browning and Liberty dealers, so I'm pretty familiar with their products as well. National Security is owned by Liberty.

Fort Knox offers a 10 gauge liner in their higher end safes. The outer shell can range from 10 gauge to 3/16" depending on model. They use gypsum board in between similar to most other gun safes.

I own one RSC already, it is a Sturdy Safe Company Minuteman series...3/16" body, 3/8" door, 10 Gauge liner and two inches of ceramic fire liner. I've owned this safe for ten years and have had absolutely no problems with it. I have talked to Terry on many occasions and he presents a great argument for his safes being top drawer with superior fire protection.

Everybody says their safes are the best. I am not overly familiar with the Sturdy safes, but from the looks of it, they are better than some of the other options out there.

Liberty Presidential and National Security Magnum's have 3/16" bodies but apparently no liner. Are they drywall covered with fabric inside?

Yes. The National Security is a better safe than the Liberty Presidential in my opinion. Of course for what they charge for either of those, you can really get a better safe.

The AMSEC "BF" Series has what appears to be cement between two liners and would seem to offer the best fire protection. AMSEC describes their units as having a two inch body thickness but that thickness appears to be two inches of cement between two sheets of ten gauge metal.

You're pretty close, it's a gypsum based concrete. They have a 10 gauge outer shell, with a 14 gauge inner liner. This gives a little better security than gypsum board alone as it's a much more solid structure. It also offers seamless fire protection.

There are only two companies that I'm aware of that build them this way. AMSEC is one, and Graffunder is the other.

My concern however is the body thickness. I am no engineer or safe technician but I am thinking it would be pretty simple to chop through the ten gauge with a fire axe and that the cement wouldn't be much of an obstacle either.

It's not. It is better protection than offered by any of their competitors in the same price range.

AMSEC also builds a true burglar rated safe, as does Graffunder. These safes are very heavy, and most can only be placed on a concrete floor. If your family room sits over a basement, you're options are limited.

If you have any other questions, I'll do my best to answer them for you. CB900F may also be along shortly. He's very knowledgeable as well, and familiar with the Graffunder products.

 

[Marvin Gardens]

Hello and Thank You for responding.

"Were these salesmen employed at a safe company or at a business that just happens to sell safes? If you weren't speaking to somebody in the locksmithing business, it's hard to say if what you've heard if even close to accurate.

One of the stores I went to is a sporting goods store, they sell AMSEC and Browning. They told me that the AMSEC was a better safe than the Browning and in fact, didn't push the Browning at all. I really got the feeling that I knew more than the salesman as he had to call the manufacturer to answer some of my questions.

The other store was a Liberty store. I don't know what the arrangements are but I got the vibe that these are franchise stores. They seemed to be getting a little tired of me asking so many questions.

"Did the Liberty dealership happen to have a safe on display that had "been involved in an actual burglary"?

They had a beat up safe, but they told me it was from seminar they went to and everybody took a turn beating the hell out of it.

"The National Security is a better safe than the Liberty Presidential in my opinion."

That is what the salesman at the Liberty store said but couldn't give me specifics as to why. Could you enlighten me a bit?

"It's not. It is better protection than offered by any of their competitors in the same price range."

Is it harder to break into the two layers of thinner metal of the AMSEC than the one 3/16" of the Liberty or a Fort Knox?

My options to look and shop are kind of limited. I live in a rural area and have to drive 70 miles to look at what I looked at today. As far as I know, there is not a Fort Knox dealer within 150 miles, I did a zip code dealer search on the Fort Knox site and they told me to contact Utah.

I realize there are better, real safes out there but I have a house with wooden floors and I don't know how this house would handle the weight. I'm figuring about 1,500 lbs. at the upper limit. My plans are to retire and move out of state in seven years. When I sell this hopefully still overpriced California house and build, I want a walk in vault where my safes will reside.

An old (and now passed) lock and safe guy that I new as a teenager told me that old safes used to be concrete lined and that there were now (then) better products on the market. I think it is pretty obvious that the poured lining of the AMSEC would offer superior fire protection to the drywall lined models. I am just wondering if the AMSEC would take the beating a 3/16" bodied safe would endure.

Thanks again for the response. I really appreciate your opinions and input.

Regards,

Marvin

 

[a1abdj]

One of the stores I went to is a sporting goods store, they sell AMSEC and Browning. They told me that the AMSEC was a better safe than the Browning and in fact, didn't push the Browning at all. I really got the feeling that I knew more than the salesman as he had to call the manufacturer to answer some of my questions.

I have two problems with these types of stores.

The first problem is that their employees undergo no background check, and are not bonded or insured. Often these employees are teenagers, and they have access to your safe combination and address.

The second problem I have is their lack of information. Not only do they know very little about what they sell, but they often just repeat what a manufacturer tells them to say. This information is often untruthful.

They had a beat up safe, but they told me it was from seminar they went to and everybody took a turn beating the hell out of it.

Which I believe to be false advertising. All of these stores seem to have these safes that show how secure they are. The one at the store near me looks like it was beat on by a 5 year old girl, yet people believe it was actually involved in a burglary attempt.

I can say in my professional opinion that it wasn't. The dial and handle are both fully intact, and in 99.99% of the burglaries I've seen involving brute force, those are the first to get knocked off.

"The National Security is a better safe than the Liberty Presidential in my opinion."

That is what the salesman at the Liberty store said but couldn't give me specifics as to why. Could you enlighten me a bit?

Both safes use a 3/16" body. The Presidential uses a 1/4" steel plate in the door, and the National Security uses a 3/8" plate door. Even though the bodies are the weakest, most attacks are on the door. The National Security beats the Presidential in that department.

The National Security also has external hinges, which I prefer over internal hinges. They support the weight better, and allow the door to swing fully open.

Is it harder to break into the two layers of thinner metal of the AMSEC than the one 3/16" of the Liberty or a Fort Knox?

I've never tried it myself. 10 gauge steel is roughly .125" thick. 3/16" is roughly .187" thick. Neither is really thick enough to be a major barrier, but they are both better than 12 gauge.

Price for price they are better. Compare the AMSEC BF series to the Liberty Washington series. They have the same fire rating, but the AMSEC has more steel. There are a few minor design differences, but the AMSEC runs about $1,000 less.

My options to look and shop are kind of limited. I live in a rural area and have to drive 70 miles to look at what I looked at today. As far as I know, there is not a Fort Knox dealer within 150 miles, I did a zip code dealer search on the Fort Knox site and they told me to contact Utah.

If looking at your local dealers, make sure you factor in taxes and delivery in the total cost. I can generally ship a safe to your doorstep for less than the local sporting goods store is wanting for it.

Not many places stock the Fort Knox safes because of their costs. Most of my Fort Knox customers order their safes custom, and wouldn't buy anything off of a sales floor anyways. They do make a nice safe, but their higher end safes can set you back $6K. For that kind of money, you could buy a true burglar rated AMSEC.

I realize there are better, real safes out there but I have a house with wooden floors and I don't know how this house would handle the weight. I'm figuring about 1,500 lbs. at the upper limit.

We tend to max the weight out at 1,100 pounds on residential applications. You can certainly put 1,500 pounds on your floor, but I would suggest you reinforce it from below.

We moved a 1,500 pound Liberty out of a House last year, and the floor was making some pretty bad noise as we rolled it across.

I am just wondering if the AMSEC would take the beating a 3/16" bodied safe would endure.

I don't think you'd see a drastic difference in time, especially if the attack was made using power tools.

The 1/2" door would withstand a pretty serious attempt, much better than any of the other safes you have looked at.

 

[Marvin Gardens]

Hello A1.
Thanks again for the response, I am a much better informed consumer due to your responses and prior posts.

"The first problem is that their employees undergo no background check, and are not bonded or insured. Often these employees are teenagers, and they have access to your safe combination and address."

The first safe I ever owned was about twenty years ago. I purchased a safe from a gun store and they arranged delivery. The installer took his jacket off and then noticed me looking at the tattoos that I recognized as prison work. He then told me that he was on parole. I changed the combination after he left and sweated it out until I moved and sold the safe some years later.

I was disappointed when I looked inside the AMSEC models and saw the sticker that said by changing the combination, I would void the warranty. I have always changed the combinations on my safes as soon as the installers leave.

"If looking at your local dealers, make sure you factor in taxes and delivery in the total cost. I can generally ship a safe to your doorstep for less than the local sporting goods store is wanting for it."

That is something I would certainly consider. I have to look around and see if I can find a safe mover that would be willing to move it from the garage to the inside of the house.

Thanks again. I still have a lot of thinking to do. I really appreciate all the help you have provided.

Regards,

Marvin

 

[a1abdj]

I was disappointed when I looked inside the AMSEC models and saw the sticker that said by changing the combination, I would void the warranty.

I think most of the safe companies have the same disclaimer in their literature, but AMSEC is the only one that applies a sticker saying so.

Mechanical locks are fairly easy to lock yourself out of if you aren't careful. It isn't rocket science, but it is too easy for an end consumer to lock himself out then claim it as a warranty issue.

If you know how to change the combination correctly, go ahead and do it. The only time that would come into play under a warranty claim is in the event of a lock failure, which is rare on mechanical locks.

I can't speak for other locksmiths, but I can say this about myself. If your lock failed, and it wasn't related to the combination change, I would still file a claim on your behalf.

 

[odysseus]

a1abdj - So regarding an Amsec safe, do you need a locksmith to change the combo? How is it done? I am looking to add another and this is the make of one I am looking at. I wish to be able to change the combo. I am somewhat technically inclined.

 

[BADUNAME17]

cement wouldn't be much of an obstacle either.

Your right. It wouldn't. The cement they use is a mixture that isn't very solid. It doesn't add to the security of the safe what so ever.

 

[CB900F]

Marvin;

You may wish to go to the www.graffundersafes.com site. They don't sell, but do provide information about their product. I do sell Graffunders & am willing to answer your questions. Please PM if you'd care to.

900F

 

[JamesM]

Unless there is an error on the thread date, I am guessing he already bought his safe. I did a double take on the date also since it is almost exactly a year later.

 

[Marvin Gardens]

Hello all.

Yes I have purchased the safe.....about six months ago. After a great deal of looking, reading, and thinking about it, I purchased another Sturdy Safe Company Minuteman model. I went with the firelined model that is 48" wide and 72" high. I will say that while the first Sturdy safe I bought ten years ago has been quite functional, the new one shows, in my opinion, much more attention to detail as far as finish work and paint. I chose the blue granite color and a gold package so it looks pretty respectable in my den.

Before purchasing my safe, I had a lengthy conversation with a friend who is a firefighter. His opinion is that if you live in town and if you have your rsc positioned on an outside wall, the type of liner doesn't matter much as the windows will blow out before the room heats up enough to damage the contents of the unit. If you have the rsc in the center of the house, especially in a two story, if the whole house goes the burning structure will collapse on the rsc and cook the contents like a baked potato. He opines, that in a worse case scenario, you would need a real fire safe to protect the contents. Fwiw, he recently purchased a rsc with a drywall type interior.

If money had been no object, I would have probably gone with a Fort Knox Yeager series model. Unfortunately, money usually is an object for me and I believed that the Sturdy model offered the most protection for the money. The folks there have always been very helpful when I had questions. Terry walked me through the process of changing my combination over the phone the first time I did it.

Ymmv.

Regards,

Marvin