An honest question about >$500 1911's

[Jbabbler]

Ok, this is a serious question for all of those that know, appreciate and understand the 1911 platform. I own a few 1911s in various brands. None of them are high end, expensive guns but all have been excellent guns without any major issues. I have a Springfield Compact 4" that has been flawless for 10+ years now. It has probably had 2000 rounds fired through it during that time and has always chambered, fired, extracted, ejected and rechambered without a single hiccup that I can remember. (based on an unrelated story it served it's purpose and has now been retired from use and sits in a safe). I also own a 5" Colt 1911A1 that my dad gave me over 20 years ago. I haven't fired or carried it much but any time I have used it it has worked 100% as designed. When I first started carrying I bought a Llama Minimax. It had major issues with extraction/ejection but after I let my dad tune it for me it was 99% reliable for the next few thousand rounds before I traded it away.

Fast Forward a decade or so and I decided that I wanted to add a compact 1911 in to my carry rotation again. I shopped around and found a Citadel (Armscor built) 1911 Compact with a lot of factory upgrades that I really liked. It was in the $500 range and seemed to be well built. I took it home, cleaned and lubed it then took it out to the woods. I put 100 rounds of 230gr Blazer through it w/o a single issue. It was accurate and smooth. The trigger felt amazing for a $500 gun and everything just mated up nicely. Two days later I put another 200 rounds through it. No problems at all. I wanted my dad to have a look at it and make any adjustments he though it might need so he borrowed it on Saturday and put another 100 rounds through it. No problems.

When I compare my Citadel to my Springfield I see no difference in build quality, weight, fit, finish, etc... The only real difference I see is that the feed ramp throat on the Citadel is wider. It actually cycles smoother with flying ashtrays than my Springfield.

I said all of that to ask this. Why do I constantly read that to get a reliable 1911 you have to spend thousands of dollars? People that I know and respect state the same thing yet I see people rave about their Norincos, Rock Islands and now my Citadel. I'm not sure what more I could ask from a defensive handgun than for it to work when I pull the trigger. Am I missing something here? Is my Citadel doomed to fail me when I need it most? What would make any of the Armscor 1911's inferior to their "higher end" cousins? Is it metallurgy, fit, etc...? What specific parts would I look at and be able to say 'Oh, now I see"? I understand that there are tons of custom items that can be added but as a base gun, whats "wrong" with the Armscor frame/slide/barrel etc?

Any input is appreciated and I am 100% openminded about this.

Thanks

 

[Quiet]

Armscor makes the Citadel 1911s, so it's the same quality as the Rock Island Armory 1911s. They are marked differently for different importers.

There is nothing wrong with the quality of the Armscor made 1911s.
Some people just don't like the fact they are made in the Phillipines.
But the fact is, the higher end Armscor 1911s (ie. RIA 1911 Tactical) are just as good as some low-$1000 1911s and, IMO, the best 1911 available in the under $1000 category.

The Armscor 1911s are slightly off from US made aftermarket parts (ie. sights), so some parts may require fitting.

 

[Jbabbler]

I agree that they are a little different than their US counterparts. For instance, the slides will not interchange between my Citadel and Springfield.

 

[451 Detonics]

Why do I constantly read that to get a reliable 1911 you have to spend thousands of dollars?

It is because gun rags are driven by advertising dollars. They can either tell you you need that Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson, Kimber 1911 to have a reliable gun or they can kiss those advertising dollars goodbye. A writer like Jordan or Skelton was able to get away with a less than glowing review at times but even they did it damn seldom. Use to be you could read between the lines and know when Jordan said it has "acceptable combat accuracy" you knew it shot 12 inch groups at 20 feet. One very well known writer told me most of the actual target groups he submitted were rejected and he ended up making targets with an empty case and a smoked lead bullet!

I advise folks to always try and find a rental gun they can shoot first before buying based on what they read in a gun rag. Talk to people at the ranges about them, watch and see who has functioning problems. Do the research yourself rather than relying on information from an advertisement driven periodical.

 

[rduckwor]

I think that you can get a reliable, functional 1911 at just about any price point. However, on the lower end, the chances of getting a non-functional gun are higher and it becomes the luck of the draw more than build quality/fitting. As we approach the semi-custom and custom guns, we find that not only reliability is enhanced, but accuracy as well. Luck becomes a factor fading into the horizon.

Also, the higher costs guns tend to have better components and are probably more durable.

Now, there are always exceptions to every rule and the 1911 is no exception to these exceptions.

Good Luck,

RMD

 

[rellascout]

2000 rounds in 10+ years is not a lot of shooting. It is less than 200 rounds a year. I think most 1911s on the market today will be able to do this without much issue. This ranges from the sub $400 RIAs to high $$ Wilsons, baers etc...

I can put 200 rounds down the line in a single range session. Some of my 1911s will might see 5000+ in a year and I do not consider myself a heavy user.

I am willing to be most of your shooting is done in ideal conditions. Meaning indoor or covered range not in the mud sand or adverse conditions which would cause failures. The majority of mine is done in the same.

Higher end 1911s will shoot into the 25K range before they require to be really overhauled and then if done properly they can continue to run. Guns that are nicely fit and finished wear less than looser fit guns.

It is not that lower end 1911s will not run it is that they will not always run for as long or be able to be run as hard. The lower end guns are looser which help in their reliablity but hurt their longevity. You see this in their slides, frames and small parts. Cheaper 1911s with high round counts tend to beat themselves to death. Similar to the older military Colts, which also had softer slides and frames due to the constraints of war time production.

To me this adds a lot of long term value to a nice 1911 over a lower end production one. YMMV

 

[gym]

I found that most all well made guns, 1911's, polymer, whatever, will shoot better than the shooter. It's practice mainlly, and trigger time, muscle memory that makes a firarm work better than another seems to. If you look at hickocks website, "not giving him too much credit", but he calls it like he sees it. If you practice with a specific pistol, you should be able to shoot any similar pistol pretty much the same, "after the initial mag or two". Unless you are a competition shooter, or a pro, you aren't going to see a significant change in accuracy between guns. Granted there are several guys in here who will be able to tell the difference between a wilson and a taurus, but the majority of folks who shoot a few hundred to a thousand rounds a year, won't really see a difference. It's like saying this gun is more accurate than that gun. Chances are they are both more accurate than the person pulling the trigger. Again I am not speaking to the pro's or guys in here who make guns a very large part of their lives, they will tell you right away, what is wrong with the gun, "if anything". But the average guy buys what he likes on a more visual or on reputation, and suggestions. A $2000.00 1911 is usually going to look a lot classier than a cheaper pistol. It dosen't have to be flashy, but you can tell by looking at the lines and feel of the gun that it is a custom made gun. The sounds it makes ahe fit, are just different. Now that dosen't mean the average joe is going to shoot it better than a less expensive mass produced one. So really it isn't going to make much difference to the average guy if it's $500.00 or $5000.00. I include myself in there with the average guy, up until 15 years ago it may have made a difference, but now not much. But that dosen't stop me from wanting the better gun.

 

[Sky]

Kinda like anything if you got a good one regardless of the price be happy. The Armscor American classic ll I have and the RIA's have done well for my click and have only seen one RIA have ejector problems..My click only shoots a couple of hunded rounds a month though but all seem to be happy with their choice. Talk about prices I was in a store last week in Thailand and a full size 1911 whch I did not get to handle (was under glass) and the price was 165,000Bhat or approx $5500 US..You can buy a full auto AK-47 black market I have been told for less than 10,000 Bhat or around $335 US. Be thankful for what we can have in the states.

 

[Jbabbler]

It is because gun rags are driven by advertising dollars.

I see it a lot more on the forums and actually had an interesting conversation with one of the mods here earlier in the week and he basically stated that people have done a lot of research and that he would not trust a gun that cost less than $1500.

I am willing to be most of your shooting is done in ideal conditions. Meaning indoor or covered range not in the mud sand or adverse conditions which would cause failures. The majority of mine is done in the same.

Higher end 1911s will shoot into the 25K range before they require to be really overhauled and then if done properly they can continue to run. Guns that are nicely fit and finished wear less than looser fit guns.

Well, for the most part I shoot outdoors on my property. All seasons and in whatever the conditions are when the urge strikes me. I hate indoor ranges and refuse to use them. I try to shoot a few times each month but just cannot afford to spend that much on 45ACP when I can buy 9mm at $175/1000. My Glock 23 sees a lot more use (LW 9mm conversion bbl) than my 1911s for this very reason.

I will admit that, aside from my Glocks, I do not currently own a gun that has had more than 5000 rounds put down the pipe. Based on what I'm seeing so far I don't see me "shooting out" my Citadel. It will be interesting to see how it holds up through the years though.

 

[rellascout]

Well, for the most part I shoot outdoors on my property. All seasons and in whatever the conditions are when the urge strikes me.

Cool but I am still willing to bet you are not rolling around in the mud throwing the gun on the ground picking it back up and firing.

Like I said I think for the type of shooting you are doing the $500 or sub $500 1911s fit the needs.

I see it a lot more on the forums and actually had an interesting conversation with one of the mods here earlier in the week and he basically stated that people have done a lot of research and that he would not trust a gun that cost less than $1500.

Depending on what he is risking, like his life, he might be spot on.

 

[Jbabbler]

Depending on what he is risking, like his life, he might be spot on.

But this leads us back to the above argument. If a company can build a reliable 1911 in a country where labor and material costs are a fraction of what they are in the US then what would someone be risking by carrying a sub $500 gun. The Armscor 1911's have received rave reviews and the vast majority of people that own them seem to be very happy with their reliability. So, once again I ask, what is it about my Armscor 1911 that makes it inferior and what will/could/should/might fail because of this? Believe me, I do not want to carry a gun that has a higher probability of failure but also don't want to waste money on a more expensive gun that offers me nothing more for the premium paid.

 

[rellascout]

But this leads us back to the above argument. If a company can build a reliable 1911 in a country where labor and material costs are a fraction of what they are in the US then what would someone be risking by carrying a sub $500 gun. The Armscor 1911's have received rave reviews and the vast majority of people that own them seem to be very happy with their reliability. So, once again I ask, what is it about my Armscor 1911 that makes it inferior and what will/could/should/might fail because of this? Believe me, I do not want to carry a gun that has a higher probability of failure but also don't want to waste money on a more expensive gun that offers me nothing more for the premium paid.

How can one answer that question for you? To me it is up to the individual. There are tons of people who rely on a $200 Bersa or $200 Taurus. I cannot speak for them. They feel comfortable with their choice. I don't trust them but does that mean they shouldn't? Also just someone is comfortable with gun X does necessarily transfer to anyone else? We all have choices to make based on our own experiences and too often our means. Some people can afford to carry a $1500 gun but carry a $500 one. Some people would like to carry a $1500 gun but can only afford a $200 one.

Honestly IMHO no. I personally believe that the gun you shoot the most should be your carry gun. I shoot my BHP and my CBOB 1911 more than any other gun because those are the ones that are carried the most. These guns will see more than 3000 round a year. After 2 or 3 years at this level of shooting I would not trust the Armscor because I do not trust the internal components long term durability. They function well at lower round counts due to looser tolerances which I believe shorten the life of a gun. 1911's run at higher round counts need to be maintained in a more strict way than say a Glock or Sig. IMHO YMMV

 

[Jbabbler]

How can one answer that question for you? To me it is up to the individual. There are tons of people who rely on a $200 Bersa or $200 Taurus. Does that mean they should? Just because they are comfortable with that does that translate to anyone else?

Honestly IMHO no. I personally believe that the gun you shoot the most should be your carry gun. I shoot my BHP and my CBOB 1911 more than any other gun because those are the ones that are carried the most. These guns will see more than 3000 round a year. After 2 or 3 years at this level of shooting I would not trust the Armscor because I do not trust the internal components long term durability. They function well at lower round counts due to looser tolerances which I believe shorten the life of a gun. 1911's run at higher round counts need to be maintained in a more strict way than say a Glock or Sig. IMHO YMMV

Now that's the answer that I was looking for. What specific components would concern you the most?

As for the "Shoot what you carry" comment, I plan on shooting the hell out of the 1911 before I begin carrying it and will spend a lot more time with it after that. I always thought they would be uncomfortable to carry but found them to be thinner than the G23/27 I' usually carry. Heck, I tried to put a Kahr in a 1911 holster and the Kahr was too wide.

 

[451 Detonics]

I shot an STI Spartan for several years running about 40,000 rounds through it. Never a problem and no loss of accuracy, gifted it to a nephew at Christmas last year. I would happily bet my life on that $600 gun.

If you buy many of the "name" makers guns you are paying for a gun built by employees, not by the guy who's name you are paying for and that name is going to add about 30% (or more) to the price of the gun.

 

[rellascout]

I shot an STI Spartan for several years running about 40,000 rounds through it. Never a problem and no loss of accuracy, gifted it to a nephew at Christmas last year. I would happily bet my life on that $600 gun.

If you buy many of the "name" makers guns you are paying for a gun built by employees, not by the guy who's name you are paying for and that name is going to add about 30% (or more) to the price of the gun.

This comming from someone who paid more for the STI name on an Armscor pistol... LOL

Again if you feel comfortable with that choice I am with you. I carry my DW CBOB a lot. It is a $700 gun, at least that is what I paid for it. I bet my life on it. Its not as much about the $$$ paid as the quality of the construction and assembly. As I am sure you know STI uses better interal parts than the avg Armscor pistol. Which you paid a premium for.

 

[Jbabbler]

Its not as much about the $$$ paid as the quality of the construction and assembly. As I am sure you know STI uses better interal parts than the avg Armscor pistol. Which you paid a premium for.

Do you know which parts specifically? Are there any parts that have proven to be unreliable in the other Armscor brands? If so, I would like to swap those parts.

My current EDC is a Glock 23 that I paid $398 new.

 

[rellascout]

Do you know which parts specifically? Are there any parts that have proven to be unreliable in the other Armscor brands? If so, I would like to swap those parts.

My current EDC is a Glock 23 that I paid $398 new.

Thumb safeties would be the first thing I would replace. The MIM part used by RIA/Armscor has been known to shear right off the frame.

The STI Spartan has the following which differ from other armscor pistols:

Slide is hand fitted
SS Hard Chrome lined barrel - match grade
Hard Chromed FLGR
Front cocking serrations
Adjustable rear sight
F/O front sight
STI trigger - hammer - grip safety - sear - disconnector


I would carefully watch the slide stop, barrel bushing, barrel lockup with the slide and extractor. Springs are also something to keep and eye on. This IMHO applies to all 1911s not just lower end ones.

 

[Jbabbler]

Thanks.

I was looking at ordering a Wilson Extended Slide Stop already but will also look at the thumb safety. I don't have a barrel bushing (bull barrel). I was going to order a spare extractor as well. What brand do you recommend? As for mags, I bought a couple of the Kimber 7rd flush fits and they have been good so far.

 

[rellascout]

I was looking at ordering a Wilson Extended Slide Stop already but will also look at the thumb safety. I don't have a barrel bushing (bull barrel). I was going to order a spare extractor as well. What brand do you recommend? As for mags, I bought a couple of the Kimber 7rd flush fits and they have been good so far.

Wilson stuff is good. If you are going that way with the slide stop. I like their extractors too.

 

[cfullgraf]

I said all of that to ask this. Why do I constantly read that to get a reliable 1911 you have to spend thousands of dollars? People that I know and respect state the same thing yet I see people rave about their Norincos, Rock Islands and now my Citadel. I'm not sure what more I could ask from a defensive handgun than for it to work when I pull the trigger. Am I missing something here? Is my Citadel doomed to fail me when I need it most? What would make any of the Armscor 1911's inferior to their "higher end" cousins? Is it metallurgy, fit, etc...? What specific parts would I look at and be able to say 'Oh, now I see"? I understand that there are tons of custom items that can be added but as a base gun, whats "wrong" with the Armscor frame/slide/barrel etc?

Any input is appreciated and I am 100% openminded about this.

Reliability and accuracy are different things. Much of what you pay for with a high end M1911 is for accuracy and the pistol would not shoot itself to pieces over many thousands of rounds, in my opinion.

There is no reason a well made budget priced M1911 would not be reliable, in other words "goes bang every time you pull the trigger".

20 years ago I purchased a low end M1911 that fired hardball ammo day in and day out without a hiccup or component failure. A few years ago I installed a 3000 plus round Colt manufacture barrel in the pistol and suddenly the groups shrunk. I do not remember the exact reason I changed out the barrel as the original barrel is still serviceable. The Colt barrel was from a Colt Government Model converted to 38-45 Clerke. Maybe I was just curious.

It gave me an education that a well fitted M1911 with good parts can be fantastic.

If the Arsmcor suits you needs, it sounds like you have a great pistol.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Do you know which parts specifically? Are there any parts that have proven to be unreliable in the other Armscor brands? If so, I would like to swap those parts.

I'll list the parts that I have seen break on pistols, that stopped the gun from running further, when LEOs tried to save money on a duty weapon.

Thumb Safety - both single sided and ambi; I've seen both levers and pins break
Slide Stop pin
Slide Stop lever - extended
Ejector - came loose
Extractor - snapped off hook
Extractor - lost tension
Barrel bushing - Series 70, finger broke off tying up action
Barrel bushing - Series 80, bushing broke, recoil spring plug flew out of gun
Slide stop plunger tube - came off
Shok Buffs -after market
Recoil reducers - after market
Firing pin stop - came loose
Sear spring - broke a leaf
Front sight - technically it didn't stop the gun when it flew off
Grip safety - not properly adjusted (not depressing them properly is an operator error and should be address in a separate thread)
Magazines - too numerous to list. Magazines are a consumable item and should be discarded when they start causing feeding problems

The greatest shortcoming of the less expensive 1911s is the lack of hand fitting. Your have to remember that the 1911 was designed in an age when machining was expensive and hand fitted was cheap. It was expected that every 1911 coming off the line would be hand fitted...they even had magazines of various lengths to fit variations in frame size.

The 1911s I have seen stop working while on the line (qualification) have usually been due to timing problems, which are a result of improper fitting. It is a delicate balance of the slide moving back in recoil, extracting the spent cartridge, waiting for the next cartridge to rise, catching it under the extractor, slamming it into the hood of the barrel and finally into the chamber.

For a long service life, the rails on the slide and frame should allow smooth and level movement, the lugs at the top of the barrel should engage and dis-engage cleanly, the link should control the rising and lowering of the barrel precisely, the bushing should allow enough movement for barrel to function and restrict it enough for consistent lockup

I agree with rellascout that the DW CBOB is an awesome buy in a mid-priced 1911...I envy him his find, as they are currently in the $1200-$1500 range...and it would be my first choice if I was going to carry a 1911 into harms way today. Having said that, the first thing I would do after buying it is:
1. replace the slide stop with a tool steel one
2. have the extractor checked
3. have the lock up/timing checked
4. have the trigger cleaned up and set to the release I prefer
5. replace the MSH with a checkered one
6. replace the sights - personal preference based on experience
...and this is on a 1911 I consider pretty close to being GTG and that I could reliably train with at about 10k rounds a year (200rds/week) without having to worry about it stopping at a bad moment.

I'd still be in the mid-price range and feel that the resulting gun would rival an Ed Brown Kobra Carry.

If you aren't going to carry it under adverse conditions (rain, dirt, sand dust, lint, spit, blood) or you aren't going to put that many rounds through it, you could likely get by with a gun having less hand fitting.

It is just a matter of choice and priority. I just offer my experience and research into what it takes to keep a 1911 running when used as a defensive carry weapon

 

[420Stainless]

I can't really answer your question. I drink the Colt koolaid and haven't really tried any other 1911s over the years except to shoot someone else's now and then.

Just wanted to say that I like the look of your Citadel. Nice looking pistol at that price.

 

[MCMXI]

While perusing Ed Brown's website a few months ago, I noticed this interesting Q&A in his FAQ section.

http://www.edbrown.com/FAQ.htm

Q: What type of accuracy are your handguns capable of at 50 yards? Which models are most accurate? Does a 1911 barrel/slide/frame fit have to be super tight to get the most accuracy possible?

A: Ed Brown guns are capable of producing the accuracy the highest quality ammunition is capable of. With a 45 ACP, this is about 1 1/2" at 50 yards. A common misconception is that a gun has to be extremely tight to be accurate. What is required to reach the accuracy potential is consistent lock up of the critical components. Any tighter than zero movement is useless, and can only reduce reliability and detract from handling. It doesn't have to be tight, it just has to be right.

So it's possible that a cheap 1911 can be "right" more by luck than by design.

The greatest shortcoming of the less expensive 1911s is the lack of hand fitting.

If you're mass producing 1911s and not doing much in the way of hand fitting, what are the chances that they will be "right"? What standard deviation do you see among mass produced pistols compared to custom or semi-custom pistols? Kimber uses lots of MIM parts for this reason. They achieve a smaller standard deviation from "right" but give up something in terms of longevity. They made a calculated business decision based on some Gaussian distribution in terms of quality and function. But honestly, can you blame them given that the vast majority of firearms owners in the US rarely shoot them, and if they do, they shoot them under near ideal conditions.

 

[GCBurner]

I'd never heard of GI Model 1911s requiring so much hand fitting that they needed different magazine lengths??

Almost all of my mags are GI surplus or Colt factory, and I haven't noticed any baseplate markings regarding length variations, though I'm not sure what to look for. When I got my 1911A1, the fact that it was totally milspec, and could use all of the GI surplus parts out there without a lot of hand fitting was one of the main selling points, to me. I've only made three modifications from stock on mine: a nicer set of Walnut grips, a full-length guide rod/spring set, and an ambidextrous safety. I've only put maybe 1,500 rounds through it since the mods, all full-power 230 gr. hardball, but so far, so good. It will probably take another 3 or 4 years before I get up to the 5,000 round point where the blog says things start wearing out and falling apart, so I'll have to wait and see.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you're mass producing 1911s and not doing much in the way of hand fitting, what are the chances that they will be "right"? What standard deviation do you see among mass produced pistols compared to custom or semi-custom pistols? Kimber uses lots of MIM parts for this reason. They achieve a smaller standard deviation from "right" but give up something in terms of longevity. They made a calculated business decision based on some Gaussian distribution in terms of quality and function. But honestly, can you blame them given that the vast majority of firearms owners in the US rarely shoot them, and if they do, they shoot them under near ideal conditions.

I have no idea of the numbers involved...I took stats back in College and understand exactly what numbers mean, so I have never paid them much mind.

You are right about Kimber's business model, they have identified what their target customer will paid and what use they will likely put that product to...then they build a product that meets that expectation with a little fudge factor. Armscor has done the same thing, they just have a different target market.

It isn't much different from Ford when they knew about the potential of exploding gas tanks in the Pinto, but figured the possible cost of injuries wasn't worth the cost to produce a safe car...for most of the folks buying it, it was safe enough.

Most folks will never shoot a cheaper 1911 enough to see the difference...for them it is reliable enough.

You should make an informed decision and spend you money as you see fit, but you should not delude yourself into believing that you are getting a like-quality product. This is the mindset that has allowed Wal-mart to dominate the market with lessor quality items which are good enough for them