An honest question about >$500 1911's

[9mmepiphany]

Almost all of my mags are GI surplus or Colt factory, and I haven't noticed any baseplate markings regarding length variations, though I'm not sure what to look for

I'm referring to Commercial Colts, which were beautiful in their fit and finish. There are no markings on the mags. Each 1911 produced went across a magazine fitting bench, where a lady sat all day fitting mags to them. She had bins of mags than varied in length by 8ths and 16ths of an inch. She would slide one into each gun in turn. If it fit, she would grab another out of the same bin and send the gun off with the two matched mags. If the mag did not fit, she would return it to the bin and reach for either a longer of shorter mag to match with the frame length.

If you look at the mags in your 1911, you'll see that there is usually a space between the bottom of the mag and the bottom of the frame. We've come to accept this as normal...it didn't use to be. Granted there needs to be enough play in the fit to ensure that the mag catch seats into it's notch, but it isn't anything close to what you'll see in current 1911s. 1911s built after the War, just use long enough mags to fit into any frame length and we just accept the gap.

The kind of fit I am talking about would be like when Rolls Royce used different directional threads on it's wheel lugs for each side of their cars, to optimize the torque applied to the lug nuts

 

[Jed Carter]

I agree, 2K in 10 years is not a lot of rounds I bought a SIG RCS in Nov 2010 it has nearly 1500 rounds, just to see if it's street worthy, so far all good. $1400 on an STI custom 9mm, wow what a pistol, new in Sept and it has over 2000 no problems, don't expect any. So far I have 5 1911s and all have been great, I have been wanting to spring for a sub $500 1911 to mess with, may get a Para Ordnance GI Expert for $469.

 

[HKGuns]

The greatest shortcoming of the less expensive 1911s is the lack of hand fitting. Your have to remember that the 1911 was designed in an age when machining was expensive and hand fitted was cheap. It was expected that every 1911 coming off the line would be hand fitted...they even had magazines of various lengths to fit variations in frame size.

9mm, with all due respect, manufacturing processes have come a long way since the time when hand fitting was required. Hand fitting is required because the manufacturing tolerances aren't tight enough and you need a parts bin full of different sized parts because the pieces you are fitting vary greatly. This is one reason you see MIM and polymer parts playing a larger role. Read up on why Ruger changed the 10/22 to a polymer trigger guard and you'll see the evidence first hand.

Hand fitted parts aren't necessarily a bad thing, however, it isn't always a requirement either. Note polymer 1911's don't exist, but it makes the point about tolerances in MFG.

Ruger Polymer Trigger groups

 

[Drail]

Because a significant sized market has developed for the 1911 in the last 25 years or so and manufacturers have scrambled to supply that market which has led to cheaper ways to mass produce them which leads to a loss of quality. If most people are only willing to pay a certain price point for a 1911 the manufacturers will concentrate on that market and build as cheaply as they can. We also have the Kimber approach where they tell customers if their brand new product doesn't work right out of the box, that's normal for a 1911, just keep shooting it (after firing a couple hundred dollars worth of ammo already) and if it still doesn't work, call us back. It just needs to be "broken in" some more. And customers are believing and accepting this stupid crap. If you had told me all this was going to happen 25 years ago I would not have believed it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

9mm, with all due respect, manufacturing processes have come a long way since the time when hand fitting was required. Hand fitting is required because the manufacturing tolerances aren't tight enough and you need a parts bin full of different sized parts because the pieces you are fitting vary greatly. This is one reason you see MIM and polymer parts playing a larger role. Read up on why Ruger changed the 10/22 to a polymer trigger guard and you'll see the evidence first hand.

Hand fitted parts aren't necessarily a bad thing, however, it isn't always a requirement either. Note polymer 1911's don't exist, but it makes the point about tolerances in MFG.

Your correct and that is why I usually recommend newer designs than the 1911 when folks are looking for a good defensive handgun.

Unfortunately the 1911 wasn't designed with that style of manufacture taken into consideration....it is the same reason that the Colt Python hasn't been introduced with MIM parts and CNC machining (S&W was able to do it with their actions due to the design being less graceful )

A 1911 engineered for modern manufacture would be the H&K HK45 or the Sig 220. H&K looked at manufacturing a 1911...granted to their standards... with CAD engineering and CNC machining and found that the cost was too prohibitive for even them to try to market in America. When you consider what they charge for what they currently offer, that concept boggles the mind.

 

[JLaScala]

So a mod said if a firearm doesn't cost upwards of around $1500 it can't be considered dependable? Wow, somone should tell the people at GLOCK about that, and no I don't own one. Or maybe the good old ak47? Both weapons you can pick up for around $500. My $500 RIA tactical has over 2000rnds though it without a hiccup. Price can be an indicator of quality, but it isnt the standard. I've known more than a few people with Kimber problems. But they are pretty and I want one.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So a mod said if a firearm doesn't cost upwards of around $1500 it can't be considered dependable? Wow, somone should tell the people at GLOCK about that, and no I don't own one. Or maybe the good old ak47? Both weapons you can pick up for around $500

While you comment is wildly off-base, since you are new to the forum, I'll extend the benefit of the doubt that you meant it at satire...which does not always work well without smilys on a forum.

I actually didn't say what you are referring to, the topic of discussion are 1911s, not Glocks or Ak-47s, and comparing the cost of a reliable example of each would be a apple vs. orange one.

We all have different standards of acceptable reliability, I've based mine on the practical experience of men who have gone into harms way where reliability's stumble had a higher price than "oops, I was mistaken".

I've seen lessor guns fail in training, classes, competition and qualifications...for my use, this is unacceptable. If the standard of reliability you will accept are different than mine that is your choice, but please don't champion a lessor standard as being acceptable for everyone. I would highly recommend that you utilize your XD45 for defensive use rather than your RIA

 

[Zerodefect]

It takes some care and attention to detail to get an olde fashioned pistol like a 1911 to run as reliable as a modern Glock. And Glock parts cost less than dog food so you can allways have fresh parts in them.

The cheaper 1911's seem to have alot of weak bushings, MIM parts or poorly cast parts, loose slide or barrel fit, barrel link wacking the slide stop wrong reducing reliability (look close at a Kimber's slide stop pin markings), non SS barrels, and just plain softer/cheaper small parts. Extractors that lose thier edge/bite. Plunger tubes that fall off. Thumb safeties that snap off. Rough finish on barrel, recoil rod, and sometimes slides that need to smooth out (aka: "breakin") etc. etc.


There is also very little quality control at many of the regular 1911 companies. Too many 1911's with crooked cut bushings and slides making it to the market. With W, EB, LB at least you know that someone at least spent some time double checking the QC. Still, there a a thosand areas to screw up when machining a 1911. Even the big boys miss something sometimes.

Often some of the cheaper guns still have very good slides, frames, barrels.

You have to cut corners somewhere to get the price down below $1000, plain and simple. If you scratch built a 1911, how much would you sell it for? $500 is peanuts.

LB, DW, EB 1911's are built to a higher standard. I've noticed excellent reliability from these brands. But you still have to use good mags (W, Tripp) and find ammo that each 1911 likes best. Most 1911 co.s will suggest which ammo is prefered, unfortunately not in the manual usually, but buried in a forum somewhere.

The more expensive 1911's should last the rest of most shooters lives. I have one good all-steel 1911, and it's the only one I'll ever buy. If I have to change it some as my tastes change, so be it.