An Interesting on-going debate with an anti.

[Special_K]

Well, I'm having a debate via facebook with a friend from one of my chemistry classes.

I'm thinking that it is going well, but what do you think?

I'm underlined and in italics
The anti-gun friend is in bold.

Tony wrote
at 5:40pm on October 8th, 2007
This is soooo outrageous! Possibly the funniest facebook album I've ever seen. Should I carry a gun because I'm scared of everything? Or Because Hot women use them? This picture drew the line for me! Haha! She's asthmatic so she needs a gun! If all these women need guns sooo desperatly, why is it the majority of males carrying them! Thanks for the humor!
Message - Delete

Wayne wrote
at 6:39pm on October 8th, 2007
No. . . She needs a firearm because she can't run away in case something happens.

What are you going to do if someone puts a gun to your face in the middle of the night?
Delete

Tony wrote
at 7:26pm on October 8th, 2007
Take my inhaler!
Message - Delete

Wayne wrote
at 8:17pm on October 8th, 2007
and do what with it?

You haven't answered the question tony.

What would you do if someone stuck a gun to your face.

or better yet. . .

Your significant others face

you sister/brother/cousin.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say here?
Delete

Tonywrote
at 9:19pm on October 8th, 2007
If someone stuck a gun in my face, I would wonder why they have it in the first place! Eliminate the problem at the source rather than the source of the problem (all these bad people we encounter so often in our lives).
Message - Delete

Wayne wrote
at 10:26pm on October 8th, 2007
you have just defeated your own argument.

"All these bad people we encounter so often in our lives"
Does a firearm shoot by itself?
-No.
What does it take to shoot a firearm?
a human behind it.

So, instead of banning firearms, what we should be doing instead is keeping violent criminals locked up longer or until they are reformed.

Until then a firearm is the best way to protect yourself from a threat.

Also, like I said before, Britain banned all there firearms and the criminals STILL had them. Guess what happened? Murder due to firearms went up because no one could defend themselves.

If you don't like firearms thats fine with me. But don't try to ban something that so many enjoy and use as a personal defense against those with lower moral standards than the average person.
Delete

Tony wrote
at 5:51pm
I was actually trying hard to over exaggerate by say that we encounter so many people in our lives.
In fact I'm more scared of the people so strongly pro gun, that they would try to make them look appealing to more people.
My philosophy is the less guns the better, and living in fear is worse than dying.

So again, If someone stuck a gun in my face... I would check to see if he was a bad person, or your run of the mill law abiding citizen.

Murder's are caused by people from all walks of life. And if a citizen snaps, a gun is the last thing I would want them to own.

I guess I've always been anti gun, on every issue... I am a bow hunter, I laugh when I see rifle hunting on tv... I don't... It's not for me. Although, I think it would be good for me to see your side on the issue! So I think this is an on going healthy debate! And I thank you for it!
Message - Delete

Wayne wrote
at 6:06pm
*sigh*

The problem I have with living in fear is just that. I should be able to safely walk done the street with not a care in the world.

However, I can not. I would myself would ban firearms if ALL firearms could be taken off the streets. Not just the ones in good peoples hands, those that are in bad hands.

It's to bad that this can't happen. The point is that there are bad people out there that have no reason to kill you. Perhaps its because you saw something they didn't want you to see. Maybe they want your T.V.

Perhaps they want to rape your family.

Until we can keep this from happening I fully believe that every legal American with no felonies should be able to own any type of firearm from single shots to fully automatic firearms.

We should all be able to defend ourselves from those that mean to do less than good to us.















This is all over the picture of Oleg Volk with the woman and asthma inhaler sleeping in the bed with the words "She can't run away, this gun keeps her safe."

 

[ReadyontheRight]

If someone stuck a gun in my face, I would wonder why they have it in the first place! Eliminate the problem at the source rather than the source of the problem (all these bad people we encounter so often in our lives).

I think the better argument here is that a gun can allow a 120 pound woman to defend herself from a 200 pound man or two, or ten.

There is a reason they called Colts "Peacemakers" and "Equalizers".

"Be not afraid of any man, No matter what his size. When in danger, call on me. And I will equalize!"

In fact I'm more scared of the people so strongly pro gun, that they would try to make them look appealing to more people.
My philosophy is the less guns the better, and living in fear is worse than dying.

Sounds like he's the one living in fear. If you are well-defended (including situational awareness, locking your doors, staying away from known trouble AND defending yourself with a gun), what do you have to fear?

Murder's are caused by people from all walks of life. And if a citizen snaps, a gun is the last thing I would want them to own.

If anyone can just "snap" at any moment, how does he feel about people driving?, or standing next to him at a Subway platform? Or sitting next to him with a steak knife?

Only a few people harm others. They should be in prison or dead. Punishing the rest of us for what someone MIGHT do is insane.

 

[lamazza]

So again, If someone stuck a gun in my face... I would check to see if he was a bad person, or your run of the mill law abiding citizen.

Tony sounds like a moron...Why waste your time with him?

 

[Special_K]

because this is the response I just got from him
"that's really nice of you, and if I'm not busy i'd love to join! Let me know when it is... I guess I realize guns are a part of our society, but main problem was the propaganda used to make them look sexy. I'm sorry if I made you frusterated!"

Thats after I invited him to the range this spring for our collegiate shooting teams new person shoot!

 

[Mavrick12]

Yeah, Dont waste your time on him. Sounds as if he is the one thats scared, and turning to irrational means to try to get rid of it.

I have asthma too, And for about two years before I started taking Daily inhalation steroids, I relied on a firearms for everything defense wise, I couldnt run.

Thankfully Its gone thanks to the Inhalation steroids.

Inviting him to the range was a good idea

 

[mainebear]

Hi Special K: Sounds like you're doing a fine job with this guy. You may never win him over, but at the very least, you're causing him to think. While this poor guy is trying to determine if his adversary is really a bad guy methinks he will have already have his answer before he does much cogitating on that subject, probably in the form of serious bodily injury to hmself or a loved one.
Maybe some dark and stormy night he will see the light, lets just hope its not the one at the end of that long tunnel.
I have a friend who's exactly the same way. I am slowly winning him over, usually with humor. Example: I bought a really crappy 22 pistol (passion overrode judgement with that purchase). Anyway, it shoots terrible groups. When I told him how I laughed thinking of the indescribable joy this purchase would bring him, he got to laughing and said "your right, now go buy something nice so you won't shoot me if I'm standing beside you some day. I know you just can't control yourself when it comes to buying those things."
The point being, he's opening up, the thought is already in his thick head that he's beside me at a range, and he's laughing and dialoging back and forth. Step 1. Hopefully more to come.
Keep up the good work.

 

[v35]

Tony sounds like a moron...Why waste your time with him?

Yup... he's a moron. He's also in chemistry class, high school or college I can't tell but either way he's the future. Hence worth educating, or attempting to. Kudos for trying.

but main problem was the propaganda used to make them look sexy.

The moron may be on to something. Guns and violence are stupidly glorified on the moron tube (TV) and that's how the morons learn 90% of everything they think they know about the world thus furthering the moronification of our society.

+1 taking him to the range and introducing him to some real live humanoids. Personally I have little tolerance for morons and try to minimize contact with them so thanks for taking care of that one for me. You may yet drag him kicking and screaming into thinking for himself perhaps for the first time in his moronic life.

 

[jeepmor]

Personally I have little tolerance for morons and try to minimize contact with them

You must be lonely, the world is full of them, just look at traffic once in a while.

He never did answer what he would do if a gun was put in his face question adequately.

I had a similar conversation with two Antis last week. Their "weak" argument was simply, "that won't happen to you, it's never happened to me." I then proceeded to go over 4 stories of gun related incidents where someone was shot or killed within one or two friends or family members away from me. I pointed out that a coworker was in a convenience store when it was robbed at gunpoint while he resided in New Mexico, the gun got pointed at him. This stuff still doesn't seem to phase them.

The response I got was "see, it's never happened to you." My response was, "Not yet, but I was at the Subway exactly 24 hours before an armed robbery and we (wife and I) almost deterred that decision for another restaurant with plans to visit Subway the next evening for dinner. Thanks for your anti advice, I'll take it under advisement, but I'm not counting on your methods to work for me. Being passive against crime only helps the criminal perpetuate his goals, it does not deter them. I have a friend with a bullet hole in his belly, an Aunt that called in sick one night and just so happened to miss a 13 person massacre (1970's Klamath Falls, OR incident), and a dead family friend that make me think otherwise. You run with the thinking that keeping guns out of law abiding citizens is the answer. I'll run with the right I have to carry a firearm as a law abiding citizen and the right to use it in my self defense should the need arise. I'm not out to hurt anyone, it is not so I can go out and shoot up the town, it's so I can defend myself with it, nothing more. Since you cannot comprehend that, it is obvious to me you don't read up on violent crime in your neighborhood and you honestly think the "it won't happen to me" stuff is really going to save your ass. Good luck with that, you do it your way, I'll do it mine, conversation over.

These guys seem to think that because they are "law abiding" citizens that the rest of the world will fall in line behind them and follow suit. This is not the case, you know it, I know it, and somewhere in the back of their minds, they really know it too. However, the "won't happen to me" concept works just fine for them because they simply refuse to look at the facts. I think these two particular people are of the thinking that they are so lacking in self control that they mgiht lose their cool and start shooting, I'm not sure, but that seems to be the attitude these people have. I can't change, I do take the time to discuss it with them, but their ignorance on the subject seems to have no limits.

Kudos to you for getting your anti person to consider visiting the range with you. There is little difference between a police officer and a citizen carrying a gun in the regards that neither of them "want" to have to use that gun. They wholeheartedly ignore the UK and DC phenomenon of increased crime with the law abiding person unable to carry a firearm for their defense. I don't carry a gun so I can commit crime, I carry in the hopes that if a crime is perpetrated on me, I have the means to defend myself. And this point is what these antis seem to refuse to even entertain or think about, let alone understand. One of my antis in this conversation was from LA and was present during the riots and would not acknowledge that many of the business owners prevented the looting of their businesses simply by having guns to defend them. Some people, you just can't reach. Be thankful you did get through to the person you discussed this with, it is not the norm.


jeepmor

 

[mmike87]

No offense, but I don't have any anti-gun friends. And it's not a coincidence.

 

[armabill]

Since the guy thinks bows are OK rather than a gun, ask him what he would do if a person puts a bow in his face instead of a gun.

 

[rino451]

The only think I would have changed:

However, I can not. I would myself would ban firearms if ALL firearms could be taken off the streets. Not just the ones in good peoples hands, those that are in bad hands.

To:
However, I can not. I would myself would see ALL criminals could be taken off the streets. Therefore, the only guns would be in the hands of the good guys.

 

[nezumi]

Like someone else wrote, don't let them define the terms of engagement. The truth is, you DON'T have a gun for when someone puts his gun in your face, because if you make to draw you'll get blown away. Guns work best as a deterrent, a deterrent against crime and against dictatorships.

Take him out of his shoes and roleplay with him a bit. Say he's a thug, even a thug with a handgun, and tell him there's a 50% chance or a 10% chance his target has a gun. As long as he's safe and at home in his mind, he WOULD prefer to live in fear. Take away the fear by putting him in a 'position of power' and allow him to examine the odds a little more rationally. Make sure you anticipate though, when dealing with concealed carry, he'll say he'd shoot first (which isn't true, but he'll still say it). Make sure you emphasize the danger of getting in a shoot out, even if you fire first.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

So again, If someone stuck a gun in my face... I would check to see if he was a bad person

Oh jeez... forget it, this guys a victim waiting to happen.

Wouldn't that be wonderful if we could get all the BGs to submit to federal background checks before they can attack you?

 

[cmidkiff]

I would myself would ban firearms if ALL firearms could be taken off the streets

Great. So that leaves the biggest and strongest able to prey on the small and weak. Sorry, that's not the world I want to live in. Every hand held weapon ever designed required either a great deal of strength, or a great deal of practice to use effectively, until the gun. There is no weapon available with which a 110lb woman can successfully stop a 250lb man intent on harming her. I guess murder, robbery, and rape were all invented in the 19th century along with firearms, right? Since getting rid of the guns would fix the problem, it couldn't have existed prior to the invention of firearms...

Get a grip.

 

[onewithgun]

1. If they ban guns. Only tyrannical governments and criminals will have them. (They're both the same if you ask me)
2. Would they rather wait 3-30 minutes for police to show up. Or would they rather have an intruder/perpetrator held at gunpoint knowing full-well that they, family or innocents are safe from harm.
3. The Second Amendment is not for hunting, recreation or sport. It's to protect us from government tyranny, overthrow dictatorships, or place somebody more deserving into power.
4. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. I don't see them trying to ban cars, alcohol, hammers, nail guns, kitchen knives or anything else that can be used to kill or injure somebody.
5. These gun laws are because of U.N. resolutions and such. They're the ones who are really responsible for bad gun legislation. Soon we'd be divided into zones and need paperwork to cross from states in one zone to states in another. The U.N. is the gun owner's true enemy and has way too much influence in our government.
6. The Second Amendment protects all other amendments. Without The Second we'd be enslaved more than we already are.
7. It's better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

 

[another okie]

Violence was not invented when guns were invented. Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Charlemagne - these guys managed to run up some pretty good death tolls without them.

 

[the naked prophet]

The world without guns: link

 

[longrifleman]

I think your friend is a good candidate for conversion. You might try this approach to the common "I don't want to live in fear." sentiment. I consider being armed as basic preparedness for bad things happening. I've never had a house fire, but I have insurance and important stuff in fire proof storage. I keep first-aid supplies in the medicine cabinet even though I would't do brain surgery on myself. My wife might want to at times, however.

The list of examples you can use is long, and might make more of an impression if you can relate it to any specific problems he has had, or to something that happened locally.

One problem with younger folks is he hasn't been around long enough to have much experience with all the bad stuff life can throw at him. I sincerely hope he never has to find out first hand just how bad, bad can be.

 

[cnorman18]

When an answer is not an answer

You're doing well; you got him off his original response, which is a typical liberal non-answer:

"If someone stuck a gun in my face, I would wonder why they have it in the first place! Eliminate the problem at the source rather than the source of the problem (all these bad people we encounter so often in our lives)."

This is why hypotheticals don't work in these arguments. Ask a liberal about any real-life situation, and he'll start talking theoretical ways to have prevented the problem from happening. "What would you do if you were the victim of a home invasion?" "Well, we need to eliminate poverty..." "No, what would you DO, right THEN?" "If people weren't poor, it wouldn't have happened!" and so on. They think it's an answer, and it's hard to get them to acknowledge that it isn't and get off theory and deal with real life.

On the other hand, after a real home invasion, they often become conservatives. If they survive it.

 

[littlegator]

So again, If someone stuck a gun in my face... I would check to see if he was a bad person, or your run of the mill law abiding citizen.

"Hold on one sec bud, I need to run a good guy/bad guy check to see if you have my permission to shoot me first." And since when did run of the mill law abinding citizen's stick a gun in someone's face except in self defense?

Breath...breath...

 

[nplant]

You could also point out that, statistically, you have a roughly 50% chance of being the victim of some sort of crime. If it's burglary, your gun won't help much. If it's a confidence scam, same deal. But if the crime happens to be robbery with a deadly weapon or by someone who's much stronger than you are, there won't be time to "check to see" whether they truly mean you harm or not. A little insurance is a good thing.

Another thing you could try is scour the web for surveillance videos of violent encounters. To tell the truth, you cannot really understand how things happen until you've seen true bad guys at work. He might then realize that there will be zero time to determine what's happening.

Anyway, he sounds like he's worth fighting for - heck, he's at least expressed interest in your point of view, something most anti's don't care about. Keep up the good work.

 

[RH822]

Wayne wrote
at 6:06pm
*sigh*

I would myself would ban firearms if ALL firearms could be taken off the streets. Not just the ones in good peoples hands, those that are in bad hands.

Sorry, but know self-respecting gun lover should ever say that.
Under no circumstances would I ever agree to ban guns, and you shouldn't either.

RH

 

[joab]

Your friend is quite possibly a lost cause, but I want to address one of your comments

I would myself would ban firearms if ALL firearms could be taken off the streets. Not just the ones in good peoples hands, those that are in bad hands.

What would that accomplish?

If guns could somehow be uninvented tomorrow

Would it be somehow better for the weaker among us to be subject to the stronger

Uninventing guns will not uninvent violence or violent crime
Your comment seems imply that gun owners victims of society and gun ownership a necessary evil of that society, which plays into his hands

 

[Euclidean]

I would respond thus. Feel free to use this.

I enjoy, own, and use firearms for hobby, recreation, and self protection. I do not do this because someone else does, but because I want to, and what's more I choose to.

Saying I have guns because I'm afraid is like saying I wear my seatbelt because I'm afraid. I do both because I think it's a good idea.

Tony, you obviously want to be safe. We all do. But you cannot depend on someone else, not even the police, to do that for you. You have to make some hard decisions for yourself about how safe you want to be. It's only a tiny handful of people who violently attack others, but these people are irrational and must be treated as such. People who were minding their own business are oftimes the victims of these predators, and it's not reasonable to assume any one person can always know ahead of time what an irrational, violent person is going to do and where.

The way you handle this is your choice to make. If you wish to try to reason with violent attackers and tell them to put their gun, knife, or other tool away because it goes against your personal philosophy, it's your call. You are free to do that if you wish, I will not try to impose legislation on you to try to make you think like I do. But I personally don't believe that such people respect anything but force. I have every bit as much right to do what I think is prudent, it's my life, not yours. As I respect your rights, I only ask the same in return.

Just as I may choose a different religion or occupation than you, I may also choose a different level of safety and preparedness. You may choose a different religion, occupation, or level of personal preparedness than what I choose, but is it my place to call it stupid or ill advised? I'm not you, I don't truly understand your situation. Similarly, you don't understand mine, so where do you get the high and mighty authority to judge me just because we're two different people? Where do you get off judging a whole group of people you've never even met, like some kind of egomaniac?

The practiced use of effective tools is conducive to my personal survival, it's just that simple. Eschewing those tools is not in any way advantageous to me, and that's true for everybody else too.

Tell me Tony, why don't people try to rob gun stores, police stations, and shooting ranges with weapons of opportunity? Why do they focus on schools or convenience stores instead?

 

[Zen21Tao]

I am a bow hunter, I laugh when I see rifle hunting on tv... I don't... It's not for me.

Tell him that you would like to "show him a society without guns (for law abiding citizens" and show him the following news articles to demonstrate post gun-ban violence:

1. Doctors in the UK call for a needed ban on kitchen knives
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

2. UK ban on ornamental swords needed to fight violence
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/4788881.stm

3. Teachers in the UK feel so safe at school they are demanding bullet-proof and stab-proof vest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6692091.stm

After showing him these articles, remind him that a gun is just a tool that some can use to commit crime. Even if a society could remove these tools, they haven't changed the hearts, minds and desires of violent criminals. The next inevitable step to fight violence will be to focus on other would-be weapons. Then ask him if he is ready to surrender his bow and arrows because they too could be used to commit acts of violence.