Plan2Live
Member
Good luck explaining that in court.
An unsettling experience my friend had recently
- Thread starter cmdc
- Start date
- Status
SwaneeSR
Member
Agree with you completely. I would flip items two and three in order of importance. Situational awareness is key.
MedWheeler
Member
I was followed once while giving a supervisor a ride to a bank to make the night's deposit. The following driver made numerous attempts to get me to stop, such as flashing his lights and sounding his horn. The deposit was normally made using two people in two cars, but my super didn't have one that night.
This was before I had a cellphone, maybe in 1997 or so. I made several turns and the vehicle stayed with me. Had I been in a $200K Porsche, that would certainly not have lasted long (the vehicle was a Toyota Paseo), but I was in a Toyota 4x4 truck.
A sheriff's patrol car entered an intersection ahead of me, turning to proceed in the direction we were headed, ahead of us. Of course, the light for me was red, but 1AM traffic was light. I ran the light in an obvious attempt to catch up to him. My pursuer(s) immediately turned right and were gone.
I was unable to catch up to the patrol car. I circled the area several times, then made the deposit without incident.
This was before I had a cellphone, maybe in 1997 or so. I made several turns and the vehicle stayed with me. Had I been in a $200K Porsche, that would certainly not have lasted long (the vehicle was a Toyota Paseo), but I was in a Toyota 4x4 truck.
A sheriff's patrol car entered an intersection ahead of me, turning to proceed in the direction we were headed, ahead of us. Of course, the light for me was red, but 1AM traffic was light. I ran the light in an obvious attempt to catch up to him. My pursuer(s) immediately turned right and were gone.
I was unable to catch up to the patrol car. I circled the area several times, then made the deposit without incident.
If you don`t have them it might be a good time it install cameras.
If you can't get it done with two Mozambiques and one in the tube while you tac load....................
The shooter is responsible for every round, where ever they end up.
I didn't perceive anything here that switching to a double stack would solve.
The shooter is responsible for every round, where ever they end up.
I didn't perceive anything here that switching to a double stack would solve.
ThomasT
Member
Strange story. I am dissappionted your friend didn't think he could handle the situation with 7 rounds on hand and another 6 rounds with a quick reload. I think he needs more training with his carry gun, not more rounds.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
After leaving the <ahem> "more densely populated" parts of town, I have pulled into the "wrong" street several times just to make sure the car behind me wasn't following. I usually stop a short way down to see if their headlights go past where I turned.
Once the car followed me in to the "wrong" street and I stopped and got ready, but they just pulled past me and into a driveway, shut off the car, and went into the house.
They were probably as suspicious as I was, and I saw them looking my way as they exited their car. All just a sequence of coincidences after all.
I almost always have a loaded handgun on the passenger seat (legal here) with my passenger window closed. The only disadvantage being in a hard stop, the gun might slide off the seat onto the floor.
But you know "the move," where you instinctively extend your arm to protect your passenger in a hard stop? Well, I do that with the gun on the seat.
I love feeling it up anyhow.
Terry, 230RN
Once the car followed me in to the "wrong" street and I stopped and got ready, but they just pulled past me and into a driveway, shut off the car, and went into the house.
They were probably as suspicious as I was, and I saw them looking my way as they exited their car. All just a sequence of coincidences after all.
I almost always have a loaded handgun on the passenger seat (legal here) with my passenger window closed. The only disadvantage being in a hard stop, the gun might slide off the seat onto the floor.
But you know "the move," where you instinctively extend your arm to protect your passenger in a hard stop? Well, I do that with the gun on the seat.
I love feeling it up anyhow.
Terry, 230RN
Last edited:
No disrespect.... But it honestly sounds like you are the one that needs more training....especially if you think 7rounds is enough to deal with 2 attackers.... And I say 7rounds because you are kidding yourself if you think a relaod is going to happen while being attacked by multiple attackers
Take an advanced pistol course.....especially one with Sim round training...... If you haven't stopped them by the time your gun is empty, you are fighting by hand, because the attacker will be on you like white on Rice.
Last edited:
So, after loudly voicing controversial opinions which engaged others nearby, then trying to shake them off when they followed, it took calling 911 to resolve the situation.
Asked and answered. Don't get so boisterous you involve strangers in your conversation. Major fail up front.
As asked, how does upgrading to more ammo fix the original problem? One that had to be correctly solved with non lethal used of force, ie the presence of officers?
Somebody is chest thumping and using the incident as a war story to justify carrying a socially higher ranking outfit. "I was followed and now I have to carry a bigger gun."
Really.
No thought whatsoever before the act that loud talk could bring on trouble. I thought the process was to live life without stirring any up. When others attempt to engage, you disengage. Nobody should have been voicing opinion loudly enough to exchange remarks with strangers - especially in a bar.
What we are really reading is "Concealed carriers can go out drinking, verbally spar with others under the influence of alcohol, but are blameless." Right?
This is exactly the reason why states ban guns - even CCW - in places that serve alcohol. "I'm going to carry more ammo!" is NOT the best solution to a situation that shouldn't have happened in the first place. There is no hint of taking responsibility for behavioral failures that precipitated getting stalked. And glorifying it with chest thumping statements someone needs even more ammo to get their posterior out of a jam they created isn't a good example of how to fix it.
What we are reading is exactly the sort of thing the anti gunners would point to as a reason people shouldn't have guns in the first place. In that light, we needed to see this post as an example of what not to do, and certainly where not to do it.
Asked and answered. Don't get so boisterous you involve strangers in your conversation. Major fail up front.
As asked, how does upgrading to more ammo fix the original problem? One that had to be correctly solved with non lethal used of force, ie the presence of officers?
Somebody is chest thumping and using the incident as a war story to justify carrying a socially higher ranking outfit. "I was followed and now I have to carry a bigger gun."
Really.
No thought whatsoever before the act that loud talk could bring on trouble. I thought the process was to live life without stirring any up. When others attempt to engage, you disengage. Nobody should have been voicing opinion loudly enough to exchange remarks with strangers - especially in a bar.
What we are really reading is "Concealed carriers can go out drinking, verbally spar with others under the influence of alcohol, but are blameless." Right?
This is exactly the reason why states ban guns - even CCW - in places that serve alcohol. "I'm going to carry more ammo!" is NOT the best solution to a situation that shouldn't have happened in the first place. There is no hint of taking responsibility for behavioral failures that precipitated getting stalked. And glorifying it with chest thumping statements someone needs even more ammo to get their posterior out of a jam they created isn't a good example of how to fix it.
What we are reading is exactly the sort of thing the anti gunners would point to as a reason people shouldn't have guns in the first place. In that light, we needed to see this post as an example of what not to do, and certainly where not to do it.
Onward Allusion
Member
I didn't read thru the entire thread because I didn't want to be swayed before sharing my thoughts...nor did I want to read the bull crap about how you will never need the extra shots because if you can't get the job done with 5, you're in deep do-do anyways.
Way back when during the days of undocumented carry, I carried a little 25 ACP with a whopping 6+1. This was due to the need for deep concealment (for obvious reasons).
When I first got my CLP, my thoughts on carrying a concealment piece followed me. I regularly carried a NAA Mini Revolver or Kel Tec P32.
After one particular unnerving incident with 2 guys, I now carry a G26 or KT P11 with an extra hi cap mag. The Glock is a better gun but for less bulk I can carry a couple of extra rounds in the P11. Odds are that I will not ever need to use it but it's insurance.
Way back when during the days of undocumented carry, I carried a little 25 ACP with a whopping 6+1. This was due to the need for deep concealment (for obvious reasons).
When I first got my CLP, my thoughts on carrying a concealment piece followed me. I regularly carried a NAA Mini Revolver or Kel Tec P32.
After one particular unnerving incident with 2 guys, I now carry a G26 or KT P11 with an extra hi cap mag. The Glock is a better gun but for less bulk I can carry a couple of extra rounds in the P11. Odds are that I will not ever need to use it but it's insurance.
Onward Allusion
Member
Let me know how many shots you get on target when your heart is at 150. Note, this doesn't even come close to the reality of a stress situation because it doesn't factor in adrenaline.
Think Like A Lawyer And A Jury
Lucky.
Never discuss politics with alcohol.
The prisons in this country are full of people who used a firearm instead of a
cellphone.
A jury is only going to hear two words that will sway them-life and death.
If someone can prove their life was in danger well enough to convince a jury
that lethal force was the only solution that person may have a chance to not
go to prison. Carry the gun and the cell phone too. Just remember to make
sure that you choose the right one to pull out.
Lucky.
Never discuss politics with alcohol.
The prisons in this country are full of people who used a firearm instead of a
cellphone.
A jury is only going to hear two words that will sway them-life and death.
If someone can prove their life was in danger well enough to convince a jury
that lethal force was the only solution that person may have a chance to not
go to prison. Carry the gun and the cell phone too. Just remember to make
sure that you choose the right one to pull out.
ThomasT
Member
I have spent many hours using one of the early air soft guns battling against my BIL and several friends. These weren't lights but real pellets that left red welts and would break blood vessels in the face. We had to wear googles so an eye wasn't put out. I know first hand how fast a gunfight could be ended with a couple of well placed hits.
I use to have a shelf full of trophies for shooting competition. I finally threw them away because I didn't need to impress anyone. I can say for a certainty that you would NOT want me shooting at you.
I believe it was Bill Jordan who stated that if you can't solve the problem with 6 rounds 6 more probably isn't going to help.
Tommygunn
Member
With due respect to Bill Jordan ... what if your problem is 7 bad guys?
It is rare but it HAS happened, and people with either "high capacity" magazines, extra "normal" capacity mags, or more than one gun have stood the best chance of surviving.
I don't have any experience in actual gunfights (Thank the Lord!!!!) but from what I've read that's come from experts and vets who have been there, done that, people who get shot don't magically all die instantly, sometimes they don't even know they've been shot until the smoke clears. I know of one WW2 incident of a soldier who was shot through his skull by a rifleman on a Pacific Island and didn't know he'd been hit at all, leastwise through the brain, until his CO reached over and removed his helmet to show him the bullet holes. In hole, out hole. Bisected his brain through the corpus collosum, right down the centerline, perfectly, which is why he survived. A one in one bazillion oddity sure, but it happened.
Handguns are notoriously underpowered to the point defense experts say that they're useful as tools to use to fight your way to a rifle.
I've never played wargames with airsoft but I've seen a few that are electric and use those plastic BBs....I would NOT want to get hit with one, considering what I've seen them do, and anyone playing wargames even with the ones I've seen best wear eye protection or they will be blinded if hit there.
But that is not what happens in real battles. I'm sure 6 rounds will be enough for the majority of situations that us civies are likely to encounter, and yes I am sure things can happen fast. But there's always those "black swan" events that will bite us in the butt.
Which is why I remain a bit cynical at cute little quotes from even experts like Bill Jordan...we have better more reliable guns than the old Colt sixgun. Having a 12 -15 round magazine in a Sig or Beretta today; that's a GOOD THING.
Posted by Ratshooter:
One also has to take into account that the assailant is most unlikely to stop immediately after having been hit, and unless the defender is able to make those hits well before the distance is closed, it may well be too late.
That may well require movement on the part of the defender.
I would not like to have to defend against multiple attackers with only six rounds.
On the other hand, I think it extremely unlikely that a defender would ever have the opportunity to fire the rounds in his spare magazine.
Okay. let's assume that two well placed hits will likely suffice. How does one reliably make "two well placed hits" (defined as hits that damage the small critical parts of the body) when the assailant is moving at around five meters per second, and those critical parts are also moving and are concealed within the large, opaque, moving envelope of the assailant's body? Realistically, how many shots will one likely have to fire to accomplish that? What is the likelihood that the defender will be able, or apt, to stop shooting immediately after that second "well placed hit" has been made?
One also has to take into account that the assailant is most unlikely to stop immediately after having been hit, and unless the defender is able to make those hits well before the distance is closed, it may well be too late.
That may well require movement on the part of the defender.
I would not like to have to defend against multiple attackers with only six rounds.
On the other hand, I think it extremely unlikely that a defender would ever have the opportunity to fire the rounds in his spare magazine.
WYOMan
Member
Frankly, this story is a great example of how constant situational awareness is your first, and best, line of defense. Allowing yourself the ability to extract yourself from a potentially dangerous situation, without having to resort to the use of force, or being in the danger zone. Eyes, ears, feet, phone. See it, hear it, move, and call 911.
entropy
Member
Guns, alcohol and politics. What could go wrong there? 
Glad nothing came of it, a lesson learned in life.
Glad nothing came of it, a lesson learned in life.
X-Rap
Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 6,657
We're all propping up our hero like he did everything right when we don't even know if the antagonists had any more I'll intent than to make him squirm a bit.
The real question is what the outcome would have been had the boxed him in and were armed.
Much different ending I'm afraid.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
The real question is what the outcome would have been had the boxed him in and were armed.
Much different ending I'm afraid.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Onward Allusion
Member
You just proved my point. YOU can likely do it. Most old guys probably can't.
herrwalther
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 8,130
Ratshooter said:
In an ideal world, you can run at a full sprint and kill anyone with a single round to the head. Any extra attackers would be so terribly frightened by your skill, they flee. Do you carry a single shot? I don't. They aren't very popular these days. I have been on a two way range where I was shooting and being shot at. Trophies won while shooting at passive targets are completely useless when you have another brain fighting against yours to live.
ThomasT
Member
Thank you Onward Allusion. But to be honest I just turned 59 in March. So I am no spring chicken. I have been hunting since about age 7 and reloading since about 1981. I have been around guns all my life. My grandfather was a big local gunsmith and built custom rifles. I have letters that came from his estate from PO Ackley and Phil Sharp. Shootng and hunting were prized activities in my family. My Uncle was on the Ft Worth PD and shot on the pistol team. He had two walls full of trophies, awards, ribbons and plaques. I outshot him about half the time when we shot together. And we shot together every month.
I am not trying to brag. Trust me I have been outshot before. But I nearly always outshoot any cops I shoot against. Its nothing more than practice. Anyone can do it. Plus I have had some hand to hand combat training.
I was just puzzled when someone with 7 shots on board feels that they couldn't handle 2 possible attackers. After you shot the first one I find it hard to believe the second one would continue to press the attack unless they were highly trained operators with a set goal to achieve.
Herrwalther did you catch the part in post #39 where I said I shot against other people? Even running,ducking and shooting around corners it was surprising how quickly you either made what would have been a kill shot or you yourself received what would have been a deadly hit.
I am not trying to brag. Trust me I have been outshot before. But I nearly always outshoot any cops I shoot against. Its nothing more than practice. Anyone can do it. Plus I have had some hand to hand combat training.
I was just puzzled when someone with 7 shots on board feels that they couldn't handle 2 possible attackers. After you shot the first one I find it hard to believe the second one would continue to press the attack unless they were highly trained operators with a set goal to achieve.
Herrwalther did you catch the part in post #39 where I said I shot against other people? Even running,ducking and shooting around corners it was surprising how quickly you either made what would have been a kill shot or you yourself received what would have been a deadly hit.
Last edited:
Plan2Live
Member
Does anyone have any links to real world shootouts involving law abiding citizens not involved in criminal activity fending off multiple armed attackers firing back at said good guy? I would like to read more about such attacks since some seem to think they are ubiquitous. The closest scenario to that I have come up with is the gun store owner in N. Augusta, SC who took on three armed thieves who crashed a vehicle into his store in a midnight robbery attempt. Hardly a typical encounter. Oh, and he didn't use a handgun to fend off said intruders.
I'm intrigued by two observations coming out of reading the responses in this thread.
1) Why are some people so intent on proving others wrong regarding their choice of capacity? I carry what I am comfortable carrying and could care less what your think about my decision. I could care less than less about what you carry. I chuckle at folks like the guy who says he carries multiple 33 round extended magazines totaling 124 rounds in his vehicle at all times, but if he is convinced he is going to be attacked by 27 Ronin and thinks carrying that much firepower around is not going to raise an eyebrow with either a Grand Jury, Prosecutor or regular 12 member jury then that's his problem not mine.
2) I can't believe we've made it all the way to Post #40-something and no one has thrown down the, dare I say it, .45 card. :banghead: Amazing!
I'm intrigued by two observations coming out of reading the responses in this thread.
1) Why are some people so intent on proving others wrong regarding their choice of capacity? I carry what I am comfortable carrying and could care less what your think about my decision. I could care less than less about what you carry. I chuckle at folks like the guy who says he carries multiple 33 round extended magazines totaling 124 rounds in his vehicle at all times, but if he is convinced he is going to be attacked by 27 Ronin and thinks carrying that much firepower around is not going to raise an eyebrow with either a Grand Jury, Prosecutor or regular 12 member jury then that's his problem not mine.
2) I can't believe we've made it all the way to Post #40-something and no one has thrown down the, dare I say it, .45 card. :banghead: Amazing!
- Status
