An Unwinnable Situation?

[Deanimator]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/06/anthony-abbate-karolina-obrycka.html

The other patrons have been criticized for not intervening to protect the barmaid.

The problem with this is that at least some of them knew the suspect and knew that he was a cop.

In another high profile bar beating by a Chicago cop, the suspect was later found by suburban police, passed out drunk in some bushes near the bar, lying on top of his firearm.

Police did not respond to the 911 call in a timely fashion and allowed Abbate to hide out in "rehab" for at least a week. That means that had Abbate been carrying a firearm, he was never searched in time to determine whether that was the case.

Anybody got any suggestions on how to handle such a situation?

1. Known cop.
2. Possible gun in play.
3. Woman being savagely beaten.
4. No 911 response or a leisurely 911 response.

Were the other patrons wrong not to respond to the beating with force, if they feared they might be shot?

If they were wrong, what SHOULD they have done?

 

[hankdatank1362]

How should they respond to any possibly armed attacker beating a woman?

Not up to date on Illinois law, but here in SC, and in may other states, we have the "Alter ego" doctrine. I know Deanimator knows what that is, but if anyone reading this doesn't know, it means you, as a non-involved bystander, have the ability to intervene with deadly force if the roles were reversed and YOU were the one being attacked, assuming deadly force would be justifiable in that scenario.

Now, it is Chicago, so I doubt any of the civvies were packing heat. Unless he is actively brandishing a weapon, I would be hesitant about killing him. Probably wouldn't have hurt him too bad for a patron to smash a full bottle over his skull, allowing others to pile on and restrain him. Chances are, that wouldn't kill him.

Now, the fact that he is a LEO has nothing to do with this. He deserves to have his you-know-what stomped, because he is a low-life pile of garbage that hits women. But, it is important to note that, as a result of his occupation, he is more likely to be armed than an average joe.

I still wouldn't reccommend slitting his throat unless he was activley displaying a weapon with intent to do someone harm, and whoever's doing the cuttin' is reasonably sure they can execute the maneuver without being shot.

 

[Deanimator]

Now, the fact that he is a LEO has nothing to do with this. He deserves to have his you-know-what stomped, because he is a low-life pile of garbage that hits women. But, it is important to note that, as a result of his occupation, he is more likely to be armed than an average joe.

Here are some of the problems with your analysis:

1. If he's indeed armed (as the other cop was), you could be SHOT. A .38 beats a bottle of Glenlivet EVERY time. Don't assume that a large drunk can easily be neutralized just by hitting him the head with something. The night before college graduation, my best friend was jumped by somebody substantially identical to Officer Abbate, both in build and alcohol fueled aggression. Not only did he shake off an osoto-gari which drove him at high speed onto the surface of a concrete parking lot, but also a flurry of punches to the face. He was only subdued via a kesa-gatame choke hold. Had my friend's assailant had access to a firearm, all of the judo in the world would have been of slight use.

2. In any such altercation, even including a shooting of an unarmed citizen, the benefit of the doubt is going to be given to the cop. In Chicago at least, it is going to be assumed that he was in the right.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have intervened. I'm just saying that it could have gotten me arrested, if not shot. I've got a "don't give a crap" attitude about such things, especially when somebody's trying to stomp a woman to death. At the same time, I realize that there are other people who don't, especially people with families. That's why I labeled this a probably "unwinnable" situation.

A lot of people are going to look at the possible consequences and take a pass. I'm not sure it's fair to call them "cowards".

 

[Realbigo]

I second the bottle over the head, but I'd have more than likely used a bar stool.

 

[TexasRifleman]

That's a real tough one for sure.

Now, the fact that he is a LEO has nothing to do with this.

Well, given the history of Chicago law enforcement in covering things like this up I'd have to disagree.

Go back and read some of the newspaper stories from when this first came up.

Part of this very trial involves LE attempts to cover it up. There is a concurrent Federal lawsuit against the City of Chicago for this and other coverup attempts.

Can you imagine what might have happened had a bystander employed deadly force against a Chicago cop?

I hate to say it, but if I knew it was a Chicago cop I would have to have a very different criteria for using force, let alone deadly force.

If that reflects poorly on me I guess that's just the way it is.

 

[Deanimator]

I second the bottle over the head, but I'd have more than likely used a bar stool.

Possible outcomes of that:

1. You injure or kill the cop and are charged with battery or murder of an LEO. The same sort of threats are made against the patrons to prevent them from testifying on your behalf as were made to get the barmaid to not press charges.

2. The cop draws his firearm and shoots you to death, claiming "self-defense" against a lethal force attack against an LEO.

Neither of those things are guaranteed. Neither is off the table either.

Could your family do without you if you were either shot to death in a "good shoot" or if you went to prison, or were given the death penalty under Illinois's much loved "felony murder" provisions?

Could your family get by after forking out everything you have in legal fees which you will NEVER get back?

Just things to think about before ragging on the other bar patrons.

 

[ilbob]

Sort of related. The Chicago cops involved in a bar room brawl last year were recently acquitted and got their badges back. I think they have been on paid leave for the better part of a year.

Ineffective prosecution?

 

[mljdeckard]

This is a good idea of why it is dicey to intervene on behalf of a third party.

Yes, the attack on the woman (TO ME, anyway) appears on the tape to be serious enough to have the threat of serious bodily injury or death. But if you draw on the guy, you might not realize he is a cop. He could beat you to the draw, OR he might have a buddy with him, who wouldn't let his buddy get shot. Bad situation all around.

 

[zxcvbob]

I hate to say it, but if I knew it was a Chicago cop I would have to have a very different criteria for using force, let alone deadly force.

If that reflects poorly on me I guess that's just the way it is.

That's why I don't go to Chicago if I can possibly avoid it. I'm afraid I might get mugged by a cop; or stumble onto a cop mugging an old lady, putting me in a no-win situation. Seriously.

 

[TexasRifleman]

This is a good idea of why it is dicey to intervene on behalf of a third party.

Truthfully it's more like a demonstration of why it's a good idea to stay out of bars

 

[Lange666]

It's called self-defense.

I'll defend my family. Myself. And maybe some of my friends. Everyone else is on their own. It may be cold and callous, but, that's how it is. I'm sorry, I'm not willing to risk my life for others like that. I have too much to lose and no matter what happens, no matter how the battle goes in the street or in court, I still lose.

You see it (violence) coming and you leave. I've watched a kid get jumped by two guys and put him in the hospital in a coma. I walked out. I'm not risking that.

 

[Deanimator]

It's called self-defense.

I'll defend my family. Myself. And maybe some of my friends. Everyone else is on their own. It may be cold and callous, but, that's how it is. I'm sorry, I'm not willing to risk my life for others like that. I have too much to lose and no matter what happens, no matter how the battle goes in the street or in court, I still lose.

You see it (violence) coming and you leave. I've watched a kid get jumped by two guys and put him in the hospital in a coma. I walked out. I'm not risking that.

At the same time, this turns our society into a jungle of all against all.

You're too small to defend yourself.
Everybody else is afraid to help you.
Calling 911 is as pointless as whistling for a unicorn.

That's why I characterized this as an "unwinnable" situation.

 

[BigGuy52]

I agree with ZXCVBob.

I never go to Chicago, unless it's absolutely necessary.

A Chicago bar? No man's land for me.

 

[Oyeboten]

I had a guy about like the cop in the video...come into the Bank I go to...I am next in line for a Teller, standing...and he conspicuously cuts in front of me and walks over to the Teller...and I say, "Bub, the end of the Line is back 'here'..." - emphacising it with a sort of side nod to behind me.


Now, as it happens, I remembered that I was not carrying like 'always', I'd left the house harried, and forgot...Lol...anyway...

He wheels, starts gesticulaing and yelling aggressive at me, Tellers are looking scared, I say, "You're a Man, you have manners, you know how a 'line' funtions, and how Banks, like Libraries, are 'quiet' places where we all observe the right decorum...yes?"


He flips out now, slaming his fist on the Teller's counter, he really wants to come at me, but for some reason, does not...he storms out.


I sit down at the Tellers...we begin our transaction...I'mabout to ask her if she'd mind selling me a Roll-of-Dimes in case he comes back in, and, the guy storms back in...and I kinda think he's retreived a Hand Gun from his Car now...he keeps his right arm fairly still, hand hovering next to his right hip...and, he's fifteen feet away...by the doors...livid and fuming...


I stand up, take two steps clear of the Chairs, and feel poised, like a Cat, and amused.

So, I figure, if he draws, I'll rush him and give it my best...

He stands there, as 'if' trying to find the nerve to draw...we stand there, all's quiet now...


I guess he did not find the nerve...starts in cussing and yelling obsenities at the Tellers...



Storms out...leaves with squealing tires...


Oye...


If he'd have started pommeling a Teller, I guess I'd have tried walloping his Kidney or something...but a nice Roll-of-Dimes would have helped...


Ohhhhh, boy...whatchagunnado...

 

[Deanimator]

I never go to Chicago, unless it's absolutely necessary.

Agree 100%.

Of course everyone involved in this story lived in Chicago, so OUR respective choices of domicile or vacation destinations are neither here nor there.

A Chicago bar? No man's land for me.

Again, likewise.

The incident could have happened literally anywhere, from the produce aisle at Jewell to the middle of State Street. He didn't instantly sober up the second he left that bar. Your wife could have accidentally bumped into him while pushing your child in a stroller and gotten the same treatment. Coming to her defense could have put you at risk for the same possible outcomes previously noted. If he'd shoot you for coming to the aid of a barmaid in a bar, there's no reason why he wouldn't do the same for you coming to your wife's aid in the street. Likewise, you should expect him to get no less benefit of the doubt staggering down Clark Street than staggering around the bar.

 

[Rexster]

I generally, as a rule, stay out of bars.

If I go against rule #1 above, I tend to NOT intervene in a situation inside a bar, short of an outright killing, even though I would certainly intervene "on the street." This may sound like a double-standard of some type, but virtually anyone inside a bar is an adult who has violated rule #1 above, and just may have to live with the consequences.

I have answered this question based on being in private citizen mode, on my own time. I wear a police badge, and a local cop behaving this way in a bar in my patrol district, when I am on the clock, is going to have to recover from injuries inflicted by me, assuming I catch him in the act. As for the aftermath, well, my badge is as big as his, and I will have had no alcohol in my system at the time.

This does not mean I would not have intervened in the particular event described above. I don't know; I was not there, and perhaps I may well have done something.

 

[rondog]

I generally, as a rule, stay out of bars.

I generally, as a rule, stay out of Chicago.

 

[mljdeckard]

I stay out of bars AND Chicago. The only reason I have ever been to Chicago was a three-hour layover in Chicago O'Hare. I will not go there until their cesspool of a city hall is cleaned out with a flamethrower and they give some respect and human rights back to their citizens.

However, my little brother recently married his favorite bartender. He and I now have legitimate reason both to go to the bar and act in her defense. It makes me view this one a bit differently.

 

[Deanimator]

I have answered this question based on being in private citizen mode, on my own time. I wear a police badge, and a local cop behaving this way in a bar in my patrol district, when I am on the clock, is going to have to recover from injuries inflicted by me, assuming I catch him in the act. As for the aftermath, well, my badge is as big as his, and I will have had no alcohol in my system at the time.

The matter was raised in the context of considerable public criticism of the other bar patrons, none of whom were cops.

The odds of you, as a cop, being prosecuted for protecting an unarmed female, half of Abbate's size from a vicious attack, are of course precisely zero. The odds of me being prosecuted for doing exactly the same thing are immensely greater.

The police gave Abbate ample time to flee the scene, then refused to apprehend him while he was in "rehab". This of course made it impossible to know if he was indeed armed at the time of the attack, and whether he posed an additional danger to the victim and any witnesses who intervened.

We already know what the police did and didn't do in this case.

The issue was what the bystanders did and didn't do, the possible reasons why, and what people would recommend they do in those circumstances.

As I said, I think it was a "no-win" situation for them, on the one hand possibly being shot or arrested (and prosecuted) and on the other being labeled "cowards". They clearly preferred public opprobrium to death or incarceration.

 

[ilbob]

There is no up side to trying to stop a felonious assault in such a case.

There is an almost certainty that anyone who would have interfered would have been charged with a serious crime. If not for the video he would never have been charged with anything. Thats just the way things are. I wouldn't have been surprised if the bartender wasn't charged with something, absent video.

 

[bababooey32]

I can't cavalierly tell somebody with a family to risk it all for no reward.

I understand what you are saying. I am saddened that there are people that would need to be told what to do. And all that would need to be done is SOMETHING. You don't have to shoot him, or knife him or slam a bottle of whiskey over his head. just DO SOMETHING. Throw a glass of water on him, spary him with the soda hose. grab his arm, yell, scream, pee on him. SOMETHING.

Just standing there is not an option (morally speaking).

Not looking for an upside for me, or gratitude from the bartender. I'm looking for people to DO THE RIGHT THING!!!:banghead:

 

[zxcvbob]

Thats just the way things are.

I would say something about "old fashioned justice" when the system breaks down like it routinely does in Chicago, but it might get taken the wrong way in light of the recent Tiller murder so I won't say it. Use your imagination.

 

[numaone]

In Florida, you can’t CCW legally at a bar, or any portion of a restaurant primary tasked with serving alcohol.


F.S.790.06 (12)

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption*

Now, that doesn't preclude you from sitting at a table in a regular restaurant and the same thing happening.

I have no idea what I would do. I avoid bars (I don't drink at all). Always want to be 100% in control of my facilities.

 

[Deanimator]

I wouldn't have been surprised if the bartender wasn't charged with something, absent video.

Just as an aside, the defense is claiming "self-defense" and that the 117lb. Obrycka tossed the 250+lb. Abbate around "like a rag doll".

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/06/anthony-abbate-karolina-obrycka.html

A lawyer for a Chicago police officer accused of beating a woman bartender in February 2007 contended at the start of the trial today that the bartender was the aggressor, saying she tossed the beefy cop "around like a rag doll."

Meanwhile, the bartender, Karolina Obrycka, took the witness stand but appeared reluctant to watch as the infamous videotape of the incident was played in Criminal Court. She said she was "tired of looking at him kicking me."

The lawyer for Officer Anthony Abbate, 40, a 12-year police veteran who was then off-duty, elected to have Circuit Judge John J. Fleming, not a jury, decide his fate.

In a surprise in his opening remarks, Abbate's lawyer, Peter Hickey, tried to portray Obrycka as the aggressor even though she was about half the size of Abbate.

"Defenseless? I think not," Hickey said. "She grabbed him, she tossed him around like a rag doll. If not for a garbage can that held him up against the bar, she would have had him on the ground."

If the judge in this bench trial acquits the defendant on the basis of this defense, it would well and truly prove the very real danger that anyone who intervened would have faced.

If indeed the 250+lb. Abbate was "defending himself" against the 117lb. Obrycka, then anyone who intervened would be her "accomplice" and criminally and civilly liable.

 

[Deanimator]

And all that would need to be done is SOMETHING.

Any such "something" could be construed as assaulting a police officer.

Doing that "something" would make you a good person.

Being a "good person" doesn't feed your family when you're in jail, destitute or dead.