An Unwinnable Situation?

[chieftain]

Curious,

with Chicago PD's history of abuse against it's citizenry, and the ensuing cover ups, is there any history, just one story, of a civilian being successful in the protective defense of an abusive CPD's victim and having a positive out come?

Just curious.

Some times it isn't about what might happen, some times it is about what is going to happen and that is what you should worry about.

Never forget what the man said about the past.

"Those who do not learn from the past are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past." -- George Santyana

That applies to CPD and their history too.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

 

[Deanimator]

with Chicago PD's history of abuse against it's citizenry, and the ensuing cover ups, is there any history, just one story, of a civilian being successful in the protective defense of an abusive CPD's victim and having a positive out come?

Not that I'm aware of, but let's confine things to this specific incident, especially given that we haven't seen a really viable suggestion of what to do yet.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Gettin' Personal?

I'm certainly glad this isn't getting personal.

Chaps my cheeks when it gets personal.

Glad you guys are arguing the issues and not calling names or engaging in any kind of personal attack.

At all.

Thanks for that.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'm certainly glad this isn't getting personal.

As of now I've just disappeared posts. It isn't terribly far from deleting posts, to deleting posters.

Projecting oneself into a situation in order to explore possible actions one might take is one thing. Projecting oneself emotionally is another thing entirely. If we cannot be calm and analytical here, how will we manage it on the street or wherever we encounter problems in real life?

Rather than saying "What YOU should do is...," try saying "What I think I would do in that situation is... ." And let's try to completely avoid saying "If you do anything but the same thing I would do in a given situation, then you are nothing but a ------." Rule 4 here at THR says- "Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer." -- http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

Let's be careful out there...

lpl

 

[sidheshooter]

Boy. Back on topic; that's pretty tough.

We can all only speak from our own experiences. Fortunately, I have no direct personal experience in this sort of altercation, but I can say that my hometown has had a couple of very high-profile cases recently that have made the populace much less enamored of the thin blue line.

Most recently was a case where a drunk off-duty cop staggered out of a gay bar at closing, got into some sort of altercation with another patron, and then chased the other guy by both car and foot before shooting him in the back of the head (as well as showering a residential neighborhood with .40 cal slugs from his off-duty weapon that should not have been in the bar in the first place) as the guy was running away.

Incredibly, the trial recently resulted in an acquittal for the cop. He lost his job, sure, but let us just say that the odds of any of us civvies going against a cop in court and winning anywhere outside of urban California seem to be not all that good, in my limited experience of things–Chicago or elsewhere.

We should be able to intervene on the behalf of innocent others. It’s the law in many places, and that function of the law is indeed part of what holds modern society together at the edges–John Lott knows this, as do we all here.

We should also hold sworn officers to a higher standard of care.

All of these things are shoulds, but things ain’t always as they should be.

The Chinese have a proverb: never come to the attention of the authorities.

Even (perhaps especially) if the authorities are far across the line separating right from wrong.

Just one guy’s .02

 

[mgkdrgn]

And all this time, the banks own security was where?

I had a guy about like the cop in the video...come into the Bank I go to...I am next in line for a Teller, standing...and he conspicuously cuts in front of me and walks over to the Teller...and I say, "Bub, the end of the Line is back 'here'..." - emphacising it with a sort of side nod to behind me.


Now, as it happens, I remembered that I was not carrying like 'always', I'd left the house harried, and forgot...Lol...anyway...

He wheels, starts gesticulaing and yelling aggressive at me, Tellers are looking scared, I say, "You're a Man, you have manners, you know how a 'line' funtions, and how Banks, like Libraries, are 'quiet' places where we all observe the right decorum...yes?"


He flips out now, slaming his fist on the Teller's counter, he really wants to come at me, but for some reason, does not...he storms out.


I sit down at the Tellers...we begin our transaction...I'mabout to ask her if she'd mind selling me a Roll-of-Dimes in case he comes back in, and, the guy storms back in...and I kinda think he's retreived a Hand Gun from his Car now...he keeps his right arm fairly still, hand hovering next to his right hip...and, he's fifteen feet away...by the doors...livid and fuming...


I stand up, take two steps clear of the Chairs, and feel poised, like a Cat, and amused.

So, I figure, if he draws, I'll rush him and give it my best...

He stands there, as 'if' trying to find the nerve to draw...we stand there, all's quiet now...


I guess he did not find the nerve...starts in cussing and yelling obsenities at the Tellers...



Storms out...leaves with squealing tires...


Oye...


If he'd have started pommeling a Teller, I guess I'd have tried walloping his Kidney or something...but a nice Roll-of-Dimes would have helped...


Ohhhhh, boy...whatchagunnado...

 

[Hungry Seagull]

It cannot be worst than asking to have a gas pumping customer put his cigerette out early in the morning with fumes heavy in the air.

He flipped. Went ballistic. Took off with gas unpaid, I sic'ed the bears on him.

A few days later a much humble and quiet man came in and said that he was deeply sorry for raising cain on the cigerette bit at the pump.

By then I had found out where the underground tanks were, learned the station's defenses against fires and didnt care about smokers anymore. They want to cremate themselves they can go right ahead.

I dont think it is so much the situation but actually approaching someone who knows he is doing something wrong and calling him or her out on it in front of others. That tends to light off alot of ... mud slinging more than anything.

 

[bababooey32]

let's confine things to this specific incident

Yes...let's: A 250 lb man is beating the tar out of a 115 lb woman. What is a person to do??

Ex-post we know that he is Chicago PD and we can all agree that there are some issues iwth intervening. Ex-ante, however, we are not aware of his status and we should take the same caution we would with any BG that might have a weapon or is acting "crazy".

I reiterate that SOMETHING has to be done (from a moral perspective). I suggest there are a myriad of responses we could take - they might or might not work in stopping the assault. Again, I submit that we must TRY SOMETHING:

Throw ice water on the guy...get his attention away from the victim. Break a glass to get his attention - enough to perhapd talk sense into him (presuming he isn't insane or on drugs/alcohol). Try to restrain him (once again, I am compelled to do something to stop him from striking this woman again). Get a group of people to jump on him.

If carrying, you may have to draw...dicey if he's carrying too - but at this point we don't know he's a cop, and drawing is always dicey. On that note, tehre are numerous threads about confronting armed attackers on these forums, with nary a one of us asking if the "BG" might be cop. Nor have I seen anyone advocating confronting an armed attacker by ignoring it and/or walking away. Why this time? What good is all of this if you are so petrified by fear of the unknown that you are unable to protect a fellow human from brutal attack? It's a bunch of BS bravado if you cannot and will not help a woman being beaten by an attacker.

 

[chieftain]

Ex-ante, however, we are not aware of his status and we should take the same caution we would with any BG that might have a weapon or is acting "crazy".

I reiterate that SOMETHING has to be done (from a moral perspective). I suggest there are a myriad of responses we could take - they might or might not work in stopping the assault. Again, I submit that we must TRY SOMETHING:

You are in a Bar. Let us guess what you are doing there?

Taking a survey.

Asking directions.

Drinking

Throw ice water on the guy...get his attention away from the victim. Break a glass to get his attention - enough to perhapd talk sense into him (presuming he isn't insane or on drugs/alcohol). Try to restrain him (once again, I am compelled to do something to stop him from striking this woman again). Get a group of people to jump on him.]/quote]

You are in a Bar. Let’s guess what he is doing. I will take a wild guess, DRINKING?

It is safe to assume he is on alcohol, probably just as you are.

If carrying, you may have to draw...dicey if he's carrying too - but at this point we don't know he's a cop, and drawing is always dicey. On that note, tehre are numerous threads about confronting armed attackers on these forums, with nary a one of us asking if the "BG" might be cop. Nor have I seen anyone advocating confronting an armed attacker by ignoring it and/or walking away. Why this time? What good is all of this if you are so petrified by fear of the unknown that you are unable to protect a fellow human from brutal attack? It's a bunch of BS bravado if you cannot and will not help a woman being beaten by an attacker.

If carrying, I don’t know of any state that you would not be in violation of some law just for being in a bar with your weapon. There are exceptions in Arizona if you were in the bar to place an emergent situation phone call.

Have any of your trainers instructed you on how to deploy your weapon in a bar?

YOU ARE IN A BAR. Don’t ever try to be a hero after drinking. It rarely ends well.

Sheesh!

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

 

[Deanimator]

Ex-post we know that he is Chicago PD and we can all agree that there are some issues iwth intervening. Ex-ante, however, we are not aware of his status and we should take the same caution we would with any BG that might have a weapon or is acting "crazy".

In the actual situation, people in the bar knew he was a cop. That's what makes this different.

If he was just some schlub trying to stomp a woman to death, I wouldn't hesitate to bust a Seagram's bottle over his head.

The problem was that he WASN'T just a drunken schlub. He was a guy with a badge, possibly with a gun and a HUGE presumption of innocence. That changes things ENTIRELY.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, a cop in a similar attack was found shortly afterward, passed out on his gun. I'd bet money that Abbate had his gun on him when he stomped the barmaid. Unless you've decided to become a felon, a cop, or a member of the Chicago City Council, he's the only one carrying a gun, in or outside that bar. If he's drunk and evil enough to stomp the tar out of a tiny woman, I wouldn't bet my life that he's not drunk and evil enough to shoot somebody who tried to stop him.

Also, by nature of the political environment, he's going to be assumed to be in the right, absent OVERWHELMING proof to the contrary. Note that his lawyer is claiming SELF-DEFENSE against the barmaid he outweighs by more than 100lbs. If his lawyer actually thinks that's a credible defense to stomping on a 117lb. woman ON VIDEO, what do you think your chances are going to be, to at least avoid arrest, especially if there's no video? If he'd tell a lie INSANELY at variance with plain fact on a video, why wouldn't he lie and say you and the barmaid committed an unprovoked attack on him? And whom do you think is going to be believed?

You have an excellent chance of walking in a "white knight" and walking out a convicted felon... or not walking out at all. No doubt it'd rightfully make you feel good about yourself. It wouldn't get you a job or feed your family, nevermind keep you a free man.

Sometimes the good guys lose. They did on Wake Island. They were still good guys, but they lost.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I cannot believe that some of you still think to draw a gun in a bar. That will get me in trouble where I am.

I have been in places where... bad things happened while unarmed and the best we all can do is clear out and make room for the Law to clean things up.

 

[Deanimator]

I cannot believe that some of you still think to draw a gun in a bar. That will get me in trouble where I am.

Almost always a bad thing. In Chicago ALWAYS a felony.

I have been in places where... bad things happened while unarmed and the best we all can do is clear out and make room for the Law to clean things up.

The singular quality of this particular incident is that "the Law" created it, and consistently failed to act conscientiously to "clean things up".

Again, where does that leave you? In this case:

1. Watching a 250+lb. man stomping a 117lb. woman.
2. Intervening and getting shot.
3. Intervening and getting arrested, and possibly charged with assaulting a police officer.
4. Winning on a wild bet that neither 2 nor 3 happens when you effectively intervene to stop the beating.

I've yet to see a credible alternative.

The only thing I can come up with is calling a TV news crew.

1. It can't by any stretch of the imagination be considered a "crime".
2. He PROBABLY won't shoot the Channel 7 newspeople.
3. It creates multiple video evidence streams to prove that he was committing a crime and neither you nor the barmaid were.

Not a guarantee of course, since it's entirely possible that Abbate's "the barmaid threw me around like a rag doll" defense could prevail. But it's about all I've got.

 

[LightningJoe]

Alcohol is our #1 problem drug. People hopped up on alcohol are a major cause of crime of all sorts. Bars are just licensed crack houses. Weird things can be expected to happen in places like that. You can't carry the whole world on your shoulders. Stay away from crackheads and drunks. You can't help them. Sometimes they hurt each other. Drunks are worse than crackheads, I suspect.

 

[Deanimator]

Stay away from crackheads and drunks. You can't help them. Sometimes they hurt each other. Drunks are worse than crackheads, I suspect.

Of course in this instance the barmaid wasn't drunk. In fact, she was obeying the sort of "dram shoppe" laws which forbid the serving of alcohol to already intoxicated persons. In return for obeying the law, she got a savage and pitiless beating.

The question is, if people are going to blame the bystanders for not intervening, what alternative do they offer which wouldn't lead to their possible deaths or prosecution for assaulting a police officer?

I respect anybody who's willing to fall on his sword to do the right thing. I just can't damn somebody for NOT doing it in a situation with so many downsides and so few (none, actually) tangible upsides.

 

[mbt2001]

I think that we need to reform the Police system for just this reason. If Chicago PD has a hard time arresting and charging this guy, then what business do they have prosecuting anyone at all?

EDIT

The question is, if people are going to blame the bystanders for not intervening, what alternative do they offer which wouldn't lead to their possible deaths or prosecution for assaulting a police officer?

I respect anybody who's willing to fall on his sword to do the right thing. I just can't damn somebody for NOT doing it in a situation with so many downsides and so few (none, actually) tangible upsides.

I am not sure what you guys think life is about, but there are things worth dying for and worth getting ridiculed for. I don't know if this was a case like that, but it seems to me that we are being brainwashed into being good little worker citizens that do what they are told or suffer the consequences. I don't fault people there for not getting involved, I lament the death of a once good society. My grandfather and his buddies wouldn't have stood for a bartender getting beaten by a drunken fool for a nano-second, cop, president or pope it wouldn't have mattered.

That bar maid was someone's wife, sister, daughter. Protecting THEM is protecting US. If the police cannot or will not, then WE have an obligation UNDER THE LAW to do exactly that OR THERE IS NO LAW.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The question is, if people are going to blame the bystanders for not intervening, what alternative do they offer which wouldn't lead to their possible deaths or prosecution for assaulting a police officer?

And if we don't start seeing some useful alternatives discussed here pretty soon, we're going to be off topic for S&T.

lpl

 

[mbt2001]

Other than getting involved, I don't see an alternative. Once you get involved, your plan goes out the window. The consequences are there, but I don't think that you should judge doing the right thing by the consequences that you MAY face.

Alternative # 1

Make friends with people in the FBI and US Marshal Service. If the SHTF call them and have them deputize you over the phone, so that you can do the right thing under their authority.

Hey, it might work...

 

[zxcvbob]

Was she the bar owner? (probably not) Where was he in this situation? Too bad he didn't come out with a coach gun or a Louisville Slugger or a big kitchen knife and take the cops head clean off. The bar owner is the only one who could have done that and not been prosecuted. Of course, CPD would have probably torched his bar a few nights later and CFD would let it burn to the ground.

There are no upsides to being in Chicago.

 

[ilbob]

That bar maid was someone's wife, sister, daughter. Protecting THEM is protecting US. If the police cannot or will not, then WE have an obligation UNDER THE LAW to do exactly that OR THERE IS NO LAW.

Obligation under the law? NO!

IMO, there is no good answer to this particular problem.

Don't get involved, and he might well have killed her.

Get involved, and you will go to jail for felony a/b on a cop, and even with the video you will have a tough and expensive time of it, assuming the video doesn't just disappear.

 

[bababooey32]

http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

This thread simply proves the notion:

if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

Deanimator:

In the actual situation, people in the bar knew he was a cop. That's what makes this different.

It only makes it different for those willing to submit to tyranny. Doing the right thing can be dangerous, even deadly. But it is still the right thing. You (we) can rationalize all we want about why it would be illogical to put oneself in that situation, but morally there is only one thing to do. You may walk away to "feed your children" again, but your conscience will remember the failure to act...the failure to protect a weaker fellow human under attack.

Here's the question, given the forum that we are in: Why do you carry a gun? Even if we can agree there was no reasonable usgae for a gun in this situation, the mindset is what I am questioning?

If you can rationalize and equivocate your way out of helping this woman while she is beaten, what on God's green earth do you plan on doing with that gun in some other instance? To me, one's inability (unwillingness) to act in this situation reflects on their mindset and ability (willingness) to be able to use their sidearm effectively in any situation.

That the patrons in this establishment knew the cop makes their inaction even more damning. If they knew him they could possibly reason with him better than a stranger. If they knew him, then grabbing his arm would be less likely to result in an assault charge.

The problem was that he WASN'T just a drunken schlub. He was a guy with a badge, possibly with a gun and a HUGE presumption of innocence. That changes things ENTIRELY.

This is precisely the wrong attitude. LEOs are held to the same or higher standards then the rest of us for the use of force (on or off duty). Allowing them the grace to assault innocents based on some notion that you might get in trouble is what allows that culture to propogate. Just like with other BGs. If bad LEOs knew that citizens were unwilling to put up with this kind of action, they might be more likely to avoid it. Your mindset allows LEOs like this guy to operate with impunity, because he knows you are afraid to act....

...kind of like the sheep.

 

[mbt2001]

Obligation under the law? NO

uhhhh

What is the point of keeping a society if no one wants to fight for it?

The police are there to enforce the law. When they fail in that task for whatever reason, does that area become lawless? Isn't it down to the people, from which power in our system is derived, to set the record straight? Somehow?

Yes, elliptically then we have an obligation UNDER THE LAW.

 

[bababooey32]

Lee and Dean

The question is, if people are going to blame the bystanders for not intervening, what alternative do they offer which wouldn't lead to their possible deaths or prosecution for assaulting a police officer?

And if we don't start seeing some useful alternatives discussed here pretty soon, we're going to be off topic for S&T.

Due respect, Lee, but is there any situation discussed here at THR in S&T where alternative solutions are given that "wouldn't lead to their possible deaths or prosecution"? As Ayoob says in In The Gravest Extreme (paraphrasing) -

Even in a good shoot, prepare to be arrested and put in jail, perhaps overnight. Prepare to go to trial. Once you shoot, your life changes forever.

I would submit that simply intervening in an assault might put you in much the same situation, regardless of the participants.

Almost all situations discussed here are dicey at best, and potentially deadly at worst. home invasions, robberies, assaults, muggings etc. Confronting the aggressor in all of those situations may result in "possible deaths or prosecution".

This case is no different. It presents a very difficult situation that may lead to injury, death, prosecution, and imprisonment. I certainly hope to never find myself in such a situation. But presented with the tough decision, I hope (and think) I am capable of doing the right thing despite all those risks (goes to my question above about "mindset" and why people would carry a gun in the first place if their first reaction to an assault is to ignore it).

In any case, I reject the notion that no alternatives have been discussed. I understand and accept the disagreement about the use of those alternatives, but the alternatives are there and are clear. They are dangerous, to be sure, and, perhaps agreeing with the OP, present an "unwinnable" situation. But to me the decision is clear and morally imperative.

 

[Deanimator]

This is precisely the wrong attitude. LEOs are held to the same or higher standards then the rest of us for the use of force (on or off duty).

They're supposed to. I suppose that in most places, they are. In some places they aren't.

What SHOULD be and what IS are vastly different things.

The apparent choices are "fall on your sword" or "do nothing".

Life isn't fair.

 

[bababooey32]

The apparent choices are "fall on your sword" or "do nothing".

You are either misreading my suggestions, or intentionally mischaracterizing them into a convenient strawman that you place into a false dichotomy.

The choices are "do nothing" or "do something". You are hypothesizing that "doing something" would absolutely land you either in jail or dead. There is no concrete evidence to suggest that these are the only possible outcomes. There is a very good (and better than average, in my opinion) chance that intervening even mildly would have stopped the assault, and the assailant would (as he ultimately did in the video) leave after realizing the predicament he was in. Intervening also could have resulted in incapacitating the assailant until police arrived, and getting him arrested on the spot. In that case, all of the witnesses would have been much more likely to corroborate the story told by the video.

There are many possible outcomes to "doing something".

There are also many outcomes to "doing nothing": The attacker could turn on you. The attacker could ultimately kill the victim...Not sure what the law says about standing by while an innocent is murdered (some states and countries do have "duty to rescue" laws, though most don't go so far as to cover this situation directly).

Either way "falling on your sword" is a mischaracterization of the choice.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Ok. For the sake of trying to discuss the situation.

It is truly a lose-lose all around. A tragety. Let's say that somehow I get the courage and make a choice to attack the 250+ pounder pounding on that little lady. Let's see.... My weight does not match his, My condition prevents long fights, and other situations in health precludes damage in a stand up fight with this fella.

To engage this fella will place me into a hospital or nursing home. It's that simple. Neither are options due to my written directives regarding living will etc. Ship me home with hospice. Then that 250 pound guy has possibly two counts of murder? Or at least assault.

20 years ago, hell yah I would have waded into it....barstool first. But not now...

But for sake of doing SOMETHING instead of doing NOTHING... I think if the old K-Bar was still with me and Im screwed anyway... Im going in. Then I will be the one sitting in jail while the bad guy gets to enjoy civil benefits courtesy of me after the lawsuit.

But thinking over the entire situation with a cold thought, it is a fight I cannot win so therefore I get out of the way and gone before the law shows up.

Once they do, they are going to corral everyone and it's going to be months before this whole thing is put to bed.

Some of you will say .. but wait! Dont go! You got a gun dontcha? Yea In the car. He probably does too. What does it matter to have problem inside the building or outside in public? Either way the situation is truly unwinnable for all involved.

In years past I have gone up against people about that weight for a variety of reasons, some justified others.. well stupid sometimes it took weeks for the aches and damage to wear off. Other times reason prevailed.

The only possible defense to any of my thinking to actually engage and pernamently take the bad guy out is the loss of life that might be suffered by that female being beaten. If death is nigh for her, then he will have to be stopped... maybe with deadly force should a suitable weapon be availible or a strike with a boot or something against his adams apple or lower two ribs to shut off his breathing or puncture his liver and maybe big blood vessals in that area as well.

Unwinnable all around I say.