Just finished annealing for the first time some 223 Norma brass and quickly noticed that I am not seeing the same discoloration with this brass that I have seen with PMC or LC brass.
Anyone else experience this?
Anyone else experience this?
Annealing observation
- Thread starter kmw1954
- Start date
- Status
AJC1
Member
The color change is supposed to be effected a lot by surface contamination.
FROGO207
Member
There are some color differences I have noted that I assumed were due to different brass composition. Each company uses their own alloy of brass.
Blue68f100
Member
Different alloys will have a slightly different color response to oxidation. The color is due to the presence of Oxygen oxidizing the surface. If you use an inert gas for a shield you will none. I've noticed that since I use W&W in my cleaning process it impairs the oxidation process, does not migrate as far.
OP
OP
I see a lot of GFL brass that has the annealing discoloration from the factory and then after I anneal the PMC brass it too then shows the same coloration.
This Norma brass has shown little to no change in color after heating. Was really expecting to see the same change. This is reinforcing my appeal for Norma brass.
This Norma brass has shown little to no change in color after heating. Was really expecting to see the same change. This is reinforcing my appeal for Norma brass.
JFrank
Member
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 15,202
This is kinda like saying you think women with longer hair run faster…
The color change is a factor of oxidation and has absolutely nothing to do with quality of brass. It’s like saying the same barrel will shoot better after blueing (another form of oxidation) rather than being left in the white. It makes absolutely no sense.
Reminding also, many brands of brass and ammunition are annealed at factory, but the oxidized surface discoloration is tumbled away before loading or packaging for sale. So seeing a change while annealing has absolutely no bearing on actual influence.
OP
OP
Jim that is very enlightening! My mentors all swear by Lapua brass in all their 6mm flavors and in my limited accuracy testing the Norma and PMC brass have provided the most consistency over LC, GFL, Win and FC.
OP
OP
Or short Women are more attractive!
Sorry if you thought I implied that discoloration or lack of had an influence on performance or quality of the annealing.
JFrank
Member
Not being a annealing type guy, but the last I heard it’s a results driven practice.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 15,202
Norma is decent to good brass. You’re largely comparing it to some of the cheapest brass in the market. LC is hearty brass, but not particularly consistent (but cheap and widely available, so we all like using it). GFL/Fiocchi and PMC are decent, Win can or can’t be, FC has been in some eras, and has been junk also… but guess who has never turned out junk - Lapua.
Nah - Height is a parameter which influences a woman’s appearance, and attractiveness - good or otherwise. So that’s a realistic influence.
Oxidation tendency doesn’t affect squat about brass, other than someone WANTING to like Norma brass using it as some pseudo-scientific basis of qualification. Like the brass because it’s durable and consistent, not because it doesn’t change color in annealing.
OP
OP
After 2 fulls years of working a large outdoor range I have yet to find a piece of Lapua brass. So I have been using what I can pick up.
I like the Norma yes because it has proven the most consistent. My observation or color change is just an assumption that the Norma has a different alloy composition. Which may be a reason for the more consistent results. But then I am not a metallurgist.
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,398
I don’t care about the case color after it is annealed, I get the most information by the flame color as it is annealed.
If using propane, as a heat source (not NG, MAPP, candle, etc) I index the case out just before the flame color changes from blue to orange.
Start the machine “fast” and reduce just until the change can be seen and speed back up, enough to eliminate the change. Then dump the “under annealed state” cases back in the hopper.
When all is right they come out annealed and cool enough to hold by the base right out of the flame(s).
Last edited:
OP
OP
jmorris, sorry but I am still using the manual hand held tool. No fancy auto machine.
Using just a 1/4" battery screw driver with a hex extension and a 3/8" deepwell socket. Have a home made holder for the propane bottle. I run the flame so that there is about a single 3/4" pencil tip then hold that flame right at the intersection of the neck and shoulder. Give a five count and then dump into a pan of cold water.
So before anyone has a bird. I fully understand that the water does nothing other than cool the case. There is NO Quench involved.
Again I know from reading here that some to not approve of this method and think it inferior but it is what I have and has shown an improvement in my reloads.
Using just a 1/4" battery screw driver with a hex extension and a 3/8" deepwell socket. Have a home made holder for the propane bottle. I run the flame so that there is about a single 3/4" pencil tip then hold that flame right at the intersection of the neck and shoulder. Give a five count and then dump into a pan of cold water.
So before anyone has a bird. I fully understand that the water does nothing other than cool the case. There is NO Quench involved.
Again I know from reading here that some to not approve of this method and think it inferior but it is what I have and has shown an improvement in my reloads.
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,398
You can still take note of the flame color. Take a trash case to test with and put it in the flame, the flame will remain blue until you have gone past the amount of heat you need to anneal the neck and shoulder.
If you are leaving the case in the flame too long, it changes from blue to orange.
Again, that’s using propane as the fuel.
JFrank
Member
You mentioned improvements in your reloads, could you expand on that and what improvements have you noted on the targets ?
Thx
Jim
OP
OP
Right away I seen many less fliers that I knew were not me. Then after comparing targets from the past with the same loads I noticed that in total my groups shrank slightly.
I believe it is because I am now getting a more consistent neck tension from the cheap range pick-up brass I use.
OP
OP
For certain. You passed this along to me once before when I first started. Again Thank You!
The flame I am using is about half the length of what you pictured and the pencil tip flame I use is directed just a bit higher and the tip of the flame contacts the case.
Again this may not be perfect but it is helping and is still better than not doing it at all.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 15,202
This is non-sequitur. As you state, you’re not a metallurgist, but you’re assigning that your observation must yield your assumption, which subsequently must explain your subjective preference. It doesn’t. Running carburizing flame temps rather than oxidizing temps, varying your exposure time, and having more or less moisture in the air also influence oxidation during annealing…
Like the brass because it’s durable and consistent, not because it doesn’t change color during annealing. You don’t benefit by assuming the world is flat just because you can’t see over the horizon.
One trick to improve quality and consistency of range pick up brass you may not have considered: clean it up, swage it, sell it. Use the proceeds to buy matched lot, quality brass.
Last edited:
I have noticed this as well, not only on different brands of cases, but even Hornady large headstamp .308, small headstamp .308, and match .308 brass all had slightly different discoloration, and they're all Hornady brass!
rdnktrkr
Member
We noticed when resizing brass from 6.5 Grendel to 6mm ARC that there was a noticeable difference between fired brass and fired brass that had been annealed using the propane/socket method.
I anneal using this method every other firing and seem to get a lot of reloads without split necks, I also use the count of 5 using a slow turning battery screwdriver.
I've never used Lapua brass but all others seem to look similar after annealing
I anneal using this method every other firing and seem to get a lot of reloads without split necks, I also use the count of 5 using a slow turning battery screwdriver.
I've never used Lapua brass but all others seem to look similar after annealing
OP
OP
Another Useless, Meaningless observation, just finished trimming these annealed Norma pcs. and found that they trimmed quicker, easier and more uniform than what I experienced with the PMC brass I have been using.
Will load it tonight and shoot tomorrow or Thus.
Will load it tonight and shoot tomorrow or Thus.
- Status
Similar threads
