Anomaly: 1849 Colt With Dragoon Barrel

[Old Fuff]

Julia's Auction operation is one of the largest and prestigious auction house's in the United States. Their larger auctions usually cover 3 days, and the return is literally in the million dollars.

The authenticity of the various lots being sold is guaranteed by the house, not the seller, with a full return if the buyer finds that the item(s) have been misrepresented.

Clearly not many were made (although I discovered a London marked example today) either inside or outside the factory. I suspect that few customers wanted to pay for the feature that offered no particular advantage.

It is also interesting that several CSA manufacturers made "Navy" sized revolvers with octagon/round barrels.

 

[Berkley]

Having known the seller of the Slidell gun for many years, I pointed him to this thread, and asked what he remembered about the gun. Here's his reply.

That is an interesting thread. You can pass this info on to the posters.

Here is what I know about the gun.

The gun (sn201631; mfg. 1862; 2 line Hartford, 6 shot; 5” bbl.; brown patina, 40% silver on TG) is the “Slidell” gun which was pictured on page 133 in Shumaker. When I got it, it was not in the case in which it is pictured in the book. I bought it from Frank Sellers at the Texas Gun Collector’s Association show on 10-21-84 and paid $600 for it (I made a heck of a deal since he was asking $675). I owned it for more than 25 years until it was sold in 2010 in the Julia auction. The provenance before me was: The Frank Bergman Collection -> The Johnny Bassett Collection -> The Frank Sellers Collection.

Bergman, Bassett, and Sellers were all well respected, old time collectors from back in the earliest days of antique gun collecting. While I had it, it was inspected by many of the most knowledgable TGCA members. Specifically, I recall opinions from Leon “Red” Jackson and Phil Phillips that they believed that it was an original Colt product. I spent many hours examining the gun and I believe that it is original. I also believe that it was first an octagon barrel which was turned round and I believe that it left the Factory in that form.. The workmanship and patina is exactly matching to other contemporary Pocket Models. No one can say with any certainty whether it was a custom request or a “lunch box” special.

I tried unsuccessfully to find a picture of John Slidell holding the gun (wouldn’t that be an argument closer!). However I did find a great picture of Slidell which I sold with the gun at the Julia auction. BTW, John Slidell had a fascinating history that is worth looking up. He is certainly the type of personality that might have requested or have been presented with such a weapon.

Over the years I saw two other round barrel Pocket Models (#36560 in a Jackson Armory catalogue, and #137498 in a private collection).

No matter what its genesis, it is arguably the most interesting of the Pocket Model variations. The only other one which comes close are the Cut-Away Recoil Shield variations.

 

[expat_alaska]

Thanks, Berkeley!

Very good information, sir.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

From what I have read on Colt firearms over the years that they would bend over backwards to fill a customers request, if it was possible they would do it. Add in all the prototype guns and the fact that they rarely threw anything away and you have the possibility of infinite variations of any gun they produced. Proving it is the hard part.

 

[72coupe]

I like the looks of those very much. I may have to buy a nice Uberti and have a friend of mine turn it round.

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt Round Barrel

Hi,

This is my first post on this thread. I just joined THR today in order to get involved with this discussion. I recently purchased a round barrel '49 Colt. It is a 2-line New York address with a 150xxx serial number (1860, I think). The back strap is engraved with the name Sam Marshall. The gun is finished "in the white", conforming with Shumaker's comment that "NONE of the specimens examined retained any significant traces of the original finish in the spots where such finish should have been found". Interestingly, there is a screw within a brass ferrule holding the grips in place. Grips appear to be original Colt and fit very well. I don't know why the screw is there. The lathe work appears to be very professionally done with no observable anomalies around the sight or the ramrod catch.

I hope to gather more info on these interesting guns at time allows, and hope that you folks out there can help.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Welcome jpn!

We would love to see pictures when your have time.

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt round barrel

Here is a picture ((I hope) of my '49 Colt with a round barrel.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

jpn

Interestingly, there is a screw within a brass ferrule holding the grips in place. Grips appear to be original Colt and fit very well. I don't know why the screw is there.

I assume the screw is there to hold together two piece grips as commonly seen on Remingtons.

I could not find ANY pocket Colts (original or reproduction) with wooden two piece grips held on with a screw but I found several with original ivory two piece grips that had a brass ferrule around the screw similar to what you have.

You might unscrew the grips and see if the serial number or a part there of is inscribed on the inner surface.

The grips may have been replaced by someone without access to the usual one piece Colt grips over this revolvers 150 years.

 

[expat_alaska]

That is a very nice looking original 1849 Pocket!

Hi,

This is my first post on this thread. I just joined THR today in order to get involved with this discussion. I recently purchased a round barrel '49 Colt. It is a 2-line New York address with a 150xxx serial number (1860, I think). The back strap is engraved with the name Sam Marshall. The gun is finished "in the white", conforming with Shumaker's comment that "NONE of the specimens examined retained any significant traces of the original finish in the spots where such finish should have been found". Interestingly, there is a screw within a brass ferrule holding the grips in place. Grips appear to be original Colt and fit very well. I don't know why the screw is there. The lathe work appears to be very professionally done with no observable anomalies around the sight or the ramrod catch.

I hope to gather more info on these interesting guns at time allows, and hope that you folks out there can help.

It seems you are well versed concerning Shumaker. I don't recall the passage in his book and I will have to delve further. I would appreciate it if you could supply the page number for folks like me who are long in the tooth and short on brain cells.

I am looking at your pic of the 1849 Pocket Pistol and, not to be a jerk, it is just too pristine to be an original. The screws show little wear/damage for a 150+ year-old pistol, except for the damaged wedge screw, which to me, smacks of a newbie trying to disassemble a tight wedge with no knowledge that this screw need never be touched, and that its sole purpose is to prevent the wedge from being ejected from the pistol upon firing it. The grip screw is an anomaly. The trigger guard smacks of an ASM repro due to the shape/lack of depth where the rear 2 screws attach to the frame.

I do not see any photos of serial numbers on the barrel lug, frame, trigger guard, backstrap, or cylinder. We would need these for further analysis.

It appears to be a 5-shot, 5" barrel and the rammer/plunger is not exactly horizontal with the barrel lug: classic ASM. There appears to be little or no case colors on the frame, load lever, or rammer. It is almost as if the barrel, cylinder, frame, load lever, rammer, wedge, and most else have been reblued.

I think a good gunsmith tried to recreate a good fake while turning the octagonal barrel to round.

Very nice looking pistol, but not original, IMO.

Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Jim - I think the lack of thickness at the rear of the trigger guard may be a loss of metal there.

It looks like the lower rear left corner of the guard where it meets the stock has been chipped off.

Pictures of all the serial number locations would indeed be helpful.

The hammer screw is sunken and may be a replacement.

Actually, according to the EMF catalog, ASM made a reproduction ROUND BARREL 1849 so if it was a fake no barrel turning would be needed.

I'm still leaning to original but your wedge screw anomaly observation is interesting.

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt Round Barrel

Hi,

Some interesting comments so far, I think.

The quote from Shumaker can be found on page 135.

This gun appears to me to be original. It is a 5-shot model with a 5" barrel. The numbers are all matching and there is no indication that the gun if other than a Colt. It has the two line New York address, and the font seem to match completely with other '49s. The cylinder has the stagecoach scene and it is quite legible. The safety pins are mostly gone; rifling is aged but not too bad. The engraving appears to be 19th century, both in style and in wear. BTW, there is an almost identical gun for sale currently on Guns International, including the grip screw.

I'll try to get more pictures up tomorrow.

jpn

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

jpn - I could not find it on GI, could you post the link?

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt Round Barrel

The Guns International number is 100599741. The gun is found on page 2 under the heading of Colt percussion revolvers. The serial number on this gun is 209536 which would make it a one-line New York address. You can't tell from the pictures if the address has been compromised by the turning of the barrel, but that would be an interesting thing to know. I think some of it would have to be lost.

 

[perldog007]

Now if one was found with a factory round barrel and a Baltimore P.D. rack number on it.. that would be a big ticket Colt in my book. I would love to own a real Colt, but have to say that so far I am pretty darn happy with my Italian copies. This model is one that I want but have no practical use for. My full size replicas have proven worthy 'work' guns afield already. Anything I could dispatch critterwise with a pocket model would likely fall cheaper and less noisy like to an adult air rifle. But both the colt and remi .31 clones fascinate me for reasons I cannot explain. This is a lovely sample pictured. Thanks for posting it.

 

[expat_alaska]

The Guns International number is 100599741. The gun is found on page 2 under the heading of Colt percussion revolvers. The serial number on this gun is 209536 which would make it a one-line New York address. You can't tell from the pictures if the address has been compromised by the turning of the barrel, but that would be an interesting thing to know. I think some of it would have to be lost.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...96eaa64ea-15BECED8-EE18-0F9C-B2F7DF3A9D055011

This pistol is very interesting in that, even with matching serial numbers on the barrel lug, frame, round trigger guard, and the backstrap, there are too many variations to be an original (unless it was made up at the factory from old and new stock parts and it was "mix 'n match" day at the Colt factory).

1) The cylinder is a 6-shot (indicative of a few 1849 Pocket models). NO approaches to the rectangular stop slots (indicative of a late 1848 Pocket Model).

2) The frame has no loading cutout/aperture (indicative of an 1848 Pocket rammerless pistol): even the 1848 Pocket squareback trigger guard pistols with load levers had a "V" notch. 1849 Pocket pistols had a thick barrel lug and a large, beveled load aperture.

3.) The wedge has no spring. 1849 Pocket pistols in this serial number range should have this feature.

4.) The barrel top flat shows no indication of an address, the corners of the flats are not sharp (indicative of de-farbing/polishing), and appear to be in much better shape than the cylinder.

5.) The cylinder is in so much worse shape than the rest of the pistol, and has no indication of any part of a serial number, whereas the rest of the pistol serial numbers are very legible, so as to be a substitution for the original cylinder.

6.) The round trigger guard is stamped ".31CAL" , which is correct for the serial number range for any Pocket pistols manufactured after the introduction of the 1862 Colt Pocket Navy .36 .

So, IMHO, this is a fantasy gun created by a smith who had a lot of time, imagination, and parts on his hands. My grandfather, who was not a gunsmith, created a knife from a file and then heat-treated it in a basement workshop so small that only one person could occupy the space at one time. Considering that, talented folks can do exceptional things.

Much to the seller's credit, he is representing this pistol as a gunsmith creation of the 1930's, and I tend to agree.

I am into replica pistol variations and that can be done fairly cheaply compared to original pistol pistols like these, even if they are smith specials. To be fair, this pistol has at least 50% original parts, and even if the rest of the parts have been "manipulated" or substituted, it is IMO an interesting segment of early 20th century history gunsmithing to study at what I believe to be a fair price, assuming there are sources (still alive or documented) out there that have knowledge about the creations of this era.

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

Now if one was found with a factory round barrel and a Baltimore P.D. rack number on it.

I think your chances on winning the lottery are better.

That would be a big ticket Colt in my book. I would love to own a real Colt, but have to say that so far I am pretty darn happy with my Italian copies. This model is one that I want but have no practical use for.

I agree wholeheartedly. At about $150-$350 per copy (depending on the model) these are so much cheaper, more forgiving insofar as parts if one screws up, and these days CNC machining almost guarantees that parts fit from gun to gun. And, one can exchange parts from model to different model if paying attention.

My full size replicas have proven worthy 'work' guns afield already. Anything I could dispatch critterwise with a pocket model would likely fall cheaper and less noisy like to an adult air rifle. But both the colt and remi .31 clones fascinate me for reasons I cannot explain. This is a lovely sample pictured. Thanks for posting it.

I understand perzactly. I have a Replica Arms El Paso Texas 1848 Pocket Pistol (ASM) squareback trigger guard made in 1963 (I am a sucker for squareback TG's).

Good luck trying to find parts for it. I managed to have my machinist neighbor re-temper the trigger/bolt spring so it functions correctly after disassembling it and taking out all of the 50-year-old crud. Ordered a new ASM spring from VTI and it turned out to be a Uberti 1849 spring: not even close.

Per the X-Files: Trust No One.

Jim

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt round barrel

Hi,

Here is another picture. More to follow.

 

[jpn]

1849 colt round barrel

And another picture.

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt Round Barrel

And another.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

These images show that the early ASM 1849 Pocket Pistol reproductions were made with ROUND BARRELS so they must have had the belief that Colt made them that way!

Their other early .31 caliber Baby Dragoon and Wells Fargo have correct OCTAGONAL BARRELS so it would have been cheaper to just use those.

Notice that the grips are one piece.

1. Image from the ASM Catalog of 1964
2. Image from the EMF Catalog of 1978 (* & **)

* The BRASS FRAME Info above the picture is for their Baby Dragoon.

** This ROUND BARREL style of pocket pistol was also in the 1981 EMF catalog but had been replaced in the 1987 catalog by the OCTAGONAL BARREL version. (I do not yet have any intervening EMF catalogs)

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Jim - Also quoting Agent Mulder "The truth is out there!"

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

jpn - I guess it was just the lighting and angle in your first photo that made the hammer screw seem deeper set than the others as in your last photo it looks consistent with all the others.

The wear seems pretty even everywhere too but great for a 150 year old piece.

I know that you mentioned that you did not find remnants of the finish in protected spots but it looks like there might be remnants of silverplate on the trigger guard.

Is that just shadow?

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt Round Barrel

The brass appears to be somewhat darker in that spot but I can't tell if it is tarnish or a remnant of silver plating.

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt Round Barrel

Another picture (almost done).